Shumita Basu, Narrating: Hey there. Before we get started, a quick warning that this episode includes a lot of swearing and adult language because, well, this is an interview with Jon Stewart.
[JON STEWART HUMMING]
Basu: I'm sorry, am I interrupting some vocal warmups.
Jon Stewart: You know, Shumita. I always have to make sure that my range, my eight-octave range, I'm the Mariah Carey of elder comedians.
Basu: We're gonna hear some whistle notes?
Stewart: That's right.
Basu: Ooh, okay.
Stewart: I'm bringing everything. This is Apple. If I'm on my home turf, I gotta bring it all. I can't…
Basu: We are distantly related. We are cousins here.
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Stewart: That's exactly right.
Basu: This is "In Conversation," from Apple News. I'm Shumita Basu. If you're just joining us for the first time, welcome to the show.
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My guest today is Jon Stewart. He's out with a new show on Apple TV+, called "The Problem with Jon Stewart."
Now, this isn't just another satirical news show, like "The Daily Show," there are already a lot of those out there. Instead, this is a place where we see Jon Stewart play a different kind of role, one where he's not just funny, but he's also really earnest. In every episode, he identifies an issue or a "problem," and then he talks to people who are advocating for a concrete solution. At one point in our conversation, he describes his new role as$% the person on the sidelines of the marathon, handing water to the runners, in this case, the advocates, and telling everyone they're doing a great job.
I spoke with Jon Stewart via a video call. He was in his home office and I was in my portable studio, which Apple built for me when the pandemic started, it kind of looks like one of those old-school phone booths. And apparently this made him very concerned for my wellbeing.
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Basu: Well, thank you for your time, Jon Stewart.
Stewart: You're very welcome. I'm sorry they're making you do that in the subway.
[BASU LAUGHS]
Stewart: [LAUGHS] Wherever you are. I don't know where that is.
Basu: Actually, it's even funnier, I'm in my childhood bedroom. This is a booth that they have built here because my husband and I are temporarily living with my parents.
Stewart: Oh, if you want me to just drive over and pick you guys up, I'm happy to do it because…
Basu: [LAUGHS] That is so nice of you.
Basu: Well, Jon, let's get into it.
Stewart: All right!
Basu: You know, there's a lot happening in the world right now. I wanna ask you about some of it.
Stewart: Okay.
Basu: But I really wanna focus in on talking about your show, from having watched a number of the episodes now, what seems to keep coming up is that there's this main question at the core of the show, which is how does a person advocate for and create change in America today? And I wonder if you have an answer to that question, I mean today, how do you do that? And do you think your answer to that question is different than the one you might have given 20 years ago when you were sitting at "The Daily Show" desk?
Stewart: I think 20 years ago, I probably wouldn't have cared as much.
Basu: Oh really? Why is that?
Stewart: Because the performance of activism is different than activism. You know, satire is a reflection of a desire for a world that you that think you would prefer to live in. It's just filtered through. And I think, for myself, it's a relatively selfish pursuit, it's a catharsis. And I think there came a point where the vehemence of our comedy and protests versus the impotence of it, it wears on you. And it began to feel… the catharsis of it, I wasn't getting the same satisfaction. So, I think what I learned more than anything is television is the dog in "Up." In other words, like we start with something and then it's like: and this is the most important… squirrel!
[BASU LAUGHS]
Stewart: And then you're off. But change is focused and tenacious and has stamina and has an attention span. And oftentimes I think the powers that be rely on… we confuse cultural attention with efficacy. And I think at this point in my life, it's not that I'm necessarily doing it, but I wanna make sure that I'm honoring those that are or maybe helping to amplify those that are, and maybe giving them a little bit of, you know, standing… like when people are running and, you know, those tables where people just stand with a cup of water, like I wanna be that guy. Like, man, you guys are fucking killing it out there, have some water. And helping to sustain certain ideas and movements and things like that.
Basu: Hm. Cheering on the marathon.
Stewart: Yeah, yeah.
Basu: One element of the show is a panel of advocates, stakeholders that… and you always mention about how they've been doing the work for X amount of time, right, before they've sat down at your table.
Stewart: Sure.
Basu: And then another element in the show is always when you sit down with someone who in theory has some amount of control here, right?
Stewart: You'd hope. Yes.
Basu: Some ability to act, to make meaningful change. And so far, at least, I haven't seen an episode where you sit down across from that person and then they say, right, great points, Jon, let me just go ahead and change that. Right?
Stewart: Well, again, I think you… I've learned in my career to adjust your expectations. And generally, what you find is the people in those positions are captured institutionally. And I don't mean that in a sense of, they're also corrupt and they're also in on the game. It's that… fish don't know they're wet. And it is when you're working within a certain structure and this is, there's a lot of, this is how it's done. And I think a good deal of the predicaments we find ourselves in is in some ways, a failure of creativity, a failure of the imagination of what's possible. You know, it's… [LAUGHS] the original title that I wanted to do with the show when I was first pitching it to my original network executive, which is my wife, I was pitching it to her and I was like, I want call it: Why not? I actually wanted to call it: Why the fuck not?
[BASU LAUGHS]
Stewart: Just the title of that show would just be, Why the fuck not? Why not? It just seems…
Basu: Why not, what? What does that mean?
Stewart: Rather than why, do, why not? You know, sort of follow Kennedy's lead. Some people look at how things are and say why, and others look and say what they could be and say, why not? So why not? And that was kind of the ethos behind it. But also understand, I'm very aware of the limitations of what I do. I've been aware of that now for as many years as there are gray things on my face, so…
[BASU LAUGHS]
Stewart: It's not like I walk into this naively and like, so, I go in to the head of the Securities and Exchange Commission and I just sell, and I'm like, here's a different way to do it. And he'll be like, that's so weird you said that. We were just doing that, you know?
Basu: [LAUGHS] Let me take notes.
Stewart: Right. Meanwhile, he's just like, yeah, we're outgunned.
Basu: Right, exactly. Let's talk about how you've spent the last couple of years, and the type of advocacy work that you've done. I mean, your first episode of the show, I should say, was about health and veterans. Now, you've spent the past couple of years working with first responders to get the September 11th Victim Compensation Fund reauthorized. You've been lobbying more recently for this bill about toxic exposure for veterans. What have you learned by advocating for these issues that, as you've said many times, should not be partisan; should really be a no-brainer.
Stewart: Well, boy, there… I mean, there's an awful lot that we've learned on it. I think one of the most surprising things is, because of the insular nature of our government, that sometimes what you put down to evil can be chalked up to either distraction or incompetence or a sense of being overwhelmed. That a good deal of what happens down there is because they're just fucking running from one thing to the other and making sure they can carve out four to six hours a day to fundraise and to network. So, there's a real obvious disconnect between the rhetoric of politics and the reality of the effect of policy on people's lives. But what it also tells you is, what do they say, power abhors a vacuum? You know, if I'm a representative and my big concern is, I gotta make sure that I'm making that money, and I've also got political eyes on this committee and that committee, and I'm trying to… Well, that presents an opportunity for interested parties with money and access to drive the conversation and legislation in their direction. You realize that K Street is so successful because they're doing the work. We had that when we first started trying to get the burn pit legislation going. The first thing we did is we tried to set up a meeting with veterans who are also representatives. So, we sat that with them all and they were all: this is terrible. Yep. No, I'm hearing this from my constituents. And look, I was there, I was in Balad. I've got a nodule too. Like, this is fucked, and I definitely get that. So, you know, we were like, we did it, we broke through. You know as well as I do, there's always that point in the meeting where someone goes, okay, so great. So, next step is. And there was kind of like this weird, okay. You mean from us? And we're like, yes, so you are the Congress people. [LAUGHS] That's why we were coming here. And they were like, it's very busy here… So, if you guys could write something up.
Basu: Write the language of the bill.
Stewart: They wanted us to write what we wanted. Now, there were a lot of competing bills already out there, but nobody had gone and looked at a comprehensive solution that also included reforms at the VA. You know, it was all piecemeal. And that's also what you find down there a lot, which is, there are a lot of really good people working towards really good things, but they don't necessarily communicate, and they don't coordinate, and so they end up working at cross purposes. So, we thought the first thing that you'd wanna do is try and get all interested parties together. And in some ways it's the premise of the show.
Basu: And how are you feeling about the current state of things? The bill having passed the House.
Stewart: You know, look, I'm never gonna say that's not a positive development, but we all know that, you know… what's nice about it is they've all revealed the reality of why this is hard. And so now we know what to argue against 'cause before you're like, this doesn't make any sense. Now it makes sense in the calculus of Washington, which is, it's money. And that's, I mean, that's the sad truth is, it's money. And even that doesn't make any sense 'cause when you, you know, if you listen to the House debate, it was a bunch of people talking about the need and how this could fix it. And then one Republican stood up and she said, she's a veteran, we wanna fiscally responsible; it doesn't help the veteran if we're not fiscally responsible. And you wanna say like, so you can spend 6 to 8 trillion dollars without a pay-for on the war. Defense contractors can have almost no oversight and scrutiny. They can create weapon systems that don't even fucking work that end up costing us 1.7 trillion dollars. But when it comes down to a veteran with pancreatic cancer, you just wanna make sure. You don't wanna, because if you dole out, if you end up paying for a veteran's pancreatic cancer, I mean, what does that say to the country? What if this gentleman had only subsisted on bacon and that was the cause? And by the way, they'll also argue: is the science clear? And it actually is. That's why we don't have them in this country. So, if you wanna know if the science is clear, I challenge every representative, go back to your district, dig a 10-acre hole, put everything that that town discards, burn it with jet fuel 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And then when your constituents go, I don't feel so well. You say to them, could be anything. Maybe you're just stressed.
Basu: Oh my God.
Stewart: Oh dude. It's mind boggling. When you, when you see that NDA, you know, the defense appropriations bill, that thing fucking sails. They can't wait to add billions of dollars 'cause it's also a jobs program.
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Basu: It doesn't even get much coverage.
Stewart: Doesn't get any coverage.
Basu: That's a quiet vote that happens.
Stewart: 'Cause there's no conflict. Nobody's having an argument over defense spending.
Basu: Jon, I wanna ask you some questions that are more media related.
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Stewart: I'm very worried that the booth you're in is gonna start filling up with water.
Basu: [LAUGHS] Where do you think I am?
Stewart: I don't know, but I don't like… It seems very precarious to me.
[BASU LAUGHS]
Stewart: Look, hold up a sign if you need help.
Basu: My feet are off the ground.
Stewart: Can I tell you what else would be really awesome to happen right now? If all of sudden it got really windy and just dollar bills started going everywhere and you were just in there like this, come on, I'm grabbing it!
Basu: We got the booth from a Chucky Cheese. It's been repurposed. [LAUGHS]
Stewart: I like it.
Basu: [LAUGHS] So, your latest episode was about the media and you have this pretty tight focus in it on TV news so, let's stay with that focus for a bit. And you keep coming back to the culprit, which is ratings, right? You argue ratings, incentivize all the wrong things. So, can you talk about that? And then, what I feel like I didn't hear in the episode is how do you incentivize the right things within the system we have?
Stewart: Ratings incentivize the wrong things if you don't believe you can get ratings with the right things. And it's not even necessarily the news, it's the system that exists. It's the information distribution system at the cellular level that is incentivized for toxins. Obviously, we're in a business, but I disagree that the conflict business is ultimately a better business for you than a business model that still retains passion, still retains emotion, viscera… What you don't see on the news for the most part are stakeholders, what you see are pundits. So, you'll go to a story, and then what's the model? Well, that was an incredible Supreme Court decision. Let's go to Van Jones and Rick Santorum. And they're just gonna deliver it… and nothing against whatever, but that's… it's gotta be producible so, you pick your polarities. But what if you picked a different polarity? What if the polarity was corruption versus integrity, stakeholders versus power structure? You can still create tension and narrative and character, but you're not doing it on a manufactured, conflict axis. You're doing it on an axis that's meaningful to the issue. That to me is exciting. That to me, I think it would rate.
Basu: If ratings are what's wrong with the media…
Stewart: Ratings are not what's wrong with the media. Ratings are the excuse they use to be sensationalist and lazy. And when you see them have to elevate their game like they did in Ukraine, and like they did on 9/11, you go… it's almost worse. It's almost like you can do this?
Stewart: Are you… wait, you've been holding this out on us?
Basu: So then maybe this analogy won't work.
Basu: But I'm trying to think of what the similar analogy would be in politics [LAUGHS] and with our lawmakers. What is the excuse? What is the thing that they're pointing to that allows for complacency and obstructivism that we're seeing?
Stewart: All right.
Stewart: There are some really good people down there, but I gotta tell you, like the phrase evil motherfucker has come up more than once. Most representatives are a brand, right? They represent a brand of politics. They represent a brand of party and they represent themselves as a brand. Like, should anybody really know who Louie Gohmert is? None of us should. But part of that is, I always try and look at, like with news, how is the system incentivized? If you're on the news, what do you do? You interview the craziest person 'cause they're giving you… that gets back to our system, right? So, you generate that. And then that crazy gets into the secondary bloodstream, the "Mediaite," "HuffPo," thing. And the headline something incredibly provocative that jumps on there. And then that goes out to the tertiary, to Twitter or to thing. And so what happens is reductive bullshit travels at the speed of light.
Basu: Yeah.
Stewart: And so that's… So the politicians that are elevated in the national discourse are the ones that will say the worst thing.
Basu: They'll play that game.
Stewart: Of course! And then, are there some people that believe it down there? Absolutely. Are there some people playing it cynically? Ooh, yes. Ooh.
Basu: [LAUGHS] You know, I wanna tell you Jon.
Stewart: Yes, Ma'am.
Basu: I really, really enjoyed your episode about the problem with freedom. I thought that was really an excellent episode.
Stewart: Thank you. We enjoyed making it.
Basu: It was like a dream panel, for me at least, as a viewer watching the panel that you had assembled there.
Stewart: Maria Ressa from, you know, and she ended up getting like the Nobel Peace Prize.
Basu: Sure. Yeah. You had a Nobel Peace Prize winner on your panel.
Stewart: How crazy is that?
Basu: And she was fantastic to listen to, fantastic on this subject.
Stewart: Fantastic.
Basu: So, you had Maria Ressa, right? You had Egyptian comedian, Bassem Youssef. You had Francisco Marquez on that episode, Venezuelan lawyer and activist.
Stewart: Yes.
Basu: And it seemed to me like you were trying to understand what fell apart, to some degree, in each of their countries that we in America could learn from. So, I wanted to hear from you, what did you take away from that conversation?
Stewart: One of the lessons I think I always take from it is: it's a lot more fragile than we think. All of this. And that idealism isn't enough. That idealism without infrastructure and leadership, you know, especially when you think about, most people just wanna live. There are people that live under horrible regimes and they are desperate to be done with it, but they also don't want to be shot in the street. And sometimes people love life more than they love freedom. And that if you can't bring order and infrastructure, you know, I think Egypt was the one that most… because I had gone over there to visit Bassam and so, I saw a little bit of what he was dealing with and what the chaos looked like, and understood how another autocrat could come in and go, it's okay. I'll pick up the trash and we'll all be fine. So, what happened there was, the idealism of wanting a voice overthrew the structure, but the only group that was organized enough to replace that structure…
Basu: Move in and fill that vacuum, yeah.
Stewart: …was the Muslim Brotherhood. So, that was their own special brand of tyranny. Right? And by the way, ultimately ended up being more open than Sisi and the next autocracy that came in when he was gone.
Basu: Sure.
Stewart: And Bassam learned that firsthand. But it really is about like, if people don't feel safe, it's, like, we had one show where somebody talked about Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like, food beats freedom for a lot of people every day. And that's not a negative. That's not cowardly. That's, like, you'll put up with a shit ton if it's not chaos.
Basu: You know, I keep thinking about this one thing that Maria Ressa said on that show. She said, if we don't have a shared reality, democracy is impossible. So, I'm gonna put that to you. What's the plan, Jon Stewart? How do we get back to a shared reality?
Stewart: It's great. So, I've been investing in the metaverse and so…
Basu: Oh, good. That sounds promising.
Stewart: So, what we all need to do is, you know, a virtual reality.
Basu: We just plug in?
Stewart: That's exactly right. And I don't think it would ever need to be dismantled by, let's say, the one. Let's call him, Neo.
[BASU LAUGHS]
Stewart: And let's say that he sees things in bullet time.
Basu: This is the season of reboots.
Stewart: Season of reboots. So, there is a nostalgia also about a shared reality, that I think is instructive. We've never had a shared reality. Look, people forget that in the 1930's, there's this narrative, again, that America was united against the tyranny of fascism and Hitler. Man, Madison Square Garden had a rally of Nazis and they filled the joint. Lindberg and Henry Ford and all those guys were like, what? The man is just trying to get a hold of industry. They've had a rough ride! What about the Jews? Look, there's… you gonna make an omelet, you're gonna break some eggs. There was no shared reality then, just like there's no shared reality now. This has always been a battle. And that's what I meant by the fragility of it is, we take for granted that that battle inevitably is won by light. And it's not always the way. And so, it's just about diligence and tenacity, and staying with it, and trying to keep things moving in that more positive direction. That's all you can… but that's what's so frustrating about media to me, 'cause it's such a crucial part of the immune system against authoritarianism. It's such a crucial part of… and when you see it abdicate that really crucial, again, like I'm being reductive. It's not all media, it's not all thing… but the system there is incentivized to create a reality that's destructive.
Basu: There's something funny about how you end a lot of these episodes or a lot of these panel conversations, at least, which is sometimes you'll throw up your hands and say, well, that didn't make me feel better. Right? There's a sort of like, okay, so everything's broken and change is hard to come by. But what's your advice for people, especially young people, maybe even with your teenagers in mind, people who wanna believe that we can have an effective and functioning democracy. What's your advice to them? The earnest you.
Stewart: That it's worthwhile. That it's a worthwhile pursuit. And that it can be achieved. And that if you change the incentives on certain systems, you can change the outcomes. And that none of this is predetermined. The thing that I think is missing sometimes is, it's easy to fall into the trap of performance. And performance isn't activity. And it has its role, but boy, diagnosis and strategy… and knowing the value of nuance. Knowing the value of: don't throw people away. There are gonna be some evil people, and there are gonna be some people that you will look at and go: nope. Bridge too far, has to be stopped. But for the most part, the overwhelming, I think, majority, and this may be naïve, are people working to just try and live in the world they think is a better one than the one they're living in now. And in this world of being incentivized, it's incentivized for black and white, good and evil. You know, there is no center. Like, that's not centrist, I'm not talking about moderation. Argue vociferously, argue honestly. Diagnose problems, go after them strategically, but do not throw away people that may be your allies, because they're not perfect.
Basu: Jon Stewart, it has been such a pleasure talking with you.
Stewart: I'm so excited that you are gonna get to leave and go see the outside world now.
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Basu: [LAUGHS] I feel like I should tell you, because you seem so concerned, this door is glass. To my left. So, I'm not like in a confined little…
Stewart: Okay. And I feel better about that.
Basu, Narrating: You can stream "The Problem With Jon Stewart" on Apple TV+. There's a podcast too, you can find it on Apple Podcasts. And I promise, I am safe. My booth did not fill up with water, it never rained dollar bills. If you want to see what this thing looks like, I'll share a picture of my home studio on Twitter. I'm @shubasu. That's s-h-u-b-a-s-u.
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