Brendan Hunt: I truly believe this team can beat anyone on their day. I also truly believe that they--
Rebecca Lowe: Really?
Hunt: On their day. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Which brings me to my second point. English hubris can come into play as well.
[REBECCA LAUGHS]
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Hunt: From Apple News and Meadowlark Media. I'm Brendan Hunt.
Lowe: And I'm Rebecca Lowe. And this is "After the Whistle."
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Hunt: Welcome everyone to our new podcast, this show. And we're gonna be with you for the next five weeks during World Cup 2022. And on this, our inaugural episode, we bring you all the excitement and anticipation surrounding the World Cup. Now, our national allegiances are on full display as we talk England, which is where she's from, and we talk team USA, which is where I'm from. We play a little game of dreams and nightmares that we like to call Optimist/Pessimist. And yes, we will talk about the situation in Qatar and there will be a lack of funny voices when we get to that. Now, a warning now for listeners, we, or at least I will be using adult language in this show because I wasn't raised in a land of teacups and nannies who float. So if you have little people around or that kinda language offends you, you have now been officially warned.
Lowe: Yeah, and also because you made me swear once before, but we'll get onto that--
Hunt: Wanker is not a swear word.
Lowe: Oh my goodness. Trust me. The W word. Yeah. But first, Brendan, can I just say what an absolute delight it is to work with you, Coach Beard, the Coach Beard. I'm sure people, it gets really annoying when people probably call you, "Hey, Coach Beard" in the street. I don't know why I put on an American accent when you're in England. But anyway. But the fact that you also love football in real life, IRL, just for the kids, is just a delight. So, except the fact that you've got two teams, we'll also get onto that.
Hunt: Oh, Rebecca, don't be so jealous. It's not becoming. I thank you for all that, but your enthusiasm for this is a mere candle in the inferno of enthusiasm I have to be working with the great Rebecca Lowe. You're one of the best football studio hosts in the world. We are so lucky to have you in this country. And I'm very, very psyched to be doing this with you for the next few weeks. And finally, bearing fruit from this deep close friendship we've had for the last eight years. Now, for those who don't know, Rebecca and I are connected in more ways than one. I'm an Arsenal fan and Rebecca is a lifelong fan of Crystal Palace Football Club in lovely Croydon. It doesn't show up on most of your tours of London, but it is still part of the beating heart, especially the beating football heart, of that great city. Their stadium, Selhurst Park, is the stadium we use in Ted Lasso. In the show, it's called Nelson Road. It's the home of AFC Richmond. But yes, fun fact for fans out there. All those shots of us in the stadium are at Crystal Palace.
Lowe: Which is a beautiful thing, by the way, Brendan, because not only is Selhurst Park a beautiful stadium, but--
Hunt: It's pretty great.
Lowe: We met doing Ted Lasso the promo eight years ago, 2014. It was the return of Ted Lasso. So basically, I work for NBC Sports, we got the rights to the Premier League, and the Premier League, NBC, got together with you guys and created this promo, this skit, this commercial featuring Jason Sudeikis, Ted Lasso, and you as Coach Beard, to try and basically sell our show. That was the premise. It went viral. As everybody knows, if you haven't watched it, just go to YouTube, put in "Ted Lasso original promo," and also put in "the return of Ted Lasso," because the following year I got a call from my boss saying, "Oh, Rebecca when-- Could you come into the studio next week? We're gonna film The Return of Ted Lasso. It's just like a little skit." And I was thinking, well, if it's anything like the first one, I hundred percent wanna be in this. but also I'd probably just be on it for like a second. I mean, probably blink and you miss me, that's probably the situation. So I go into work and there's Jason and there's Brendan out by the makeup area, and we start discussing the script. And there is not one, there is not a script. They're like--
Hunt: That's how, we do.
Lowe: You'll be fine. Just go on the set. Jason will just talk you through it. And I'm like, "No, no, guys, guys, guys, guys, this is what you do for a living. This is not something I-- I just kind of need like a rough-- Can I get some help here?!" Anyway…
Hunt: And you were wrong. You were wrong. You were up for it. You were the woman for the job because ladies and gentlemen, Rebecca Lowe improvised in that sketch, was crushing it. In fact, the famous, "It says LIVE!" was something that just came out of her mouth randomly. She did ask us afterward to bleep out the part where she says the word "wanker" because she didn't want her grandmother to get mad at her, which is one of the most English things she's ever said. And now here we are, eight years later.
Lowe: Ted Lasso links us, Crystal Palace links us. The W-word links us. It's a beautiful thing. All right, so much to discuss then with just a few days to go until the World Cup starts. So let's move on shall we Brendan and talk some footy.
[ELECTRONIC MUSIC PLAYS]
Hunt: Now, for only the third time ever and the second time in our lifetimes, the United States and England will be meeting in this World Cup. They're not the favorites, but they're our favorites. So we'll probably be spending an inordinate amount of time talking about them for least as long as they're in the tournament, which, you know, we could be clear and free of this by December. So let's enjoy it while we can.
Lowe: Let's go with USA first, right? So the squads, for anyone who doesn't know, the squads were announced a few days ago. USA went first, big old show on ESPN, Gregg Berhalter naming a very young squad, Tim Ream, however, being the outlier to that. By the way, did you hear the story that Pep Guardiola went over to him after the game against Man City?
Hunt: This is a great story. Share this with the good people.
Lowe: I mean, is this true? He goes over and he says--
Hunt: Set it up. Tim Ream is a central defender for Fulham in the Premier League. They, I think, are only in their first year being promoted back up. They're a proper yo-yo club. And they're a humble club who play in not a stadium, but a cottage. And they had a fine game, I believe it was an honorable defeat, or was it a draw? It was a defeat in the end, I think, against the mighty Manchester City of Pep Guardiola. And after the game this happens.
Lowe: Pep Guardiola goes over to Tim Ream, puts his arm around him and says to him, "If you were 24, not 34, you'd be playing on my team." Now we've just gotta take that with a massive pinch of salt, because Pep is a joy. He's a genius. There's no doubt he's the best manager in the world. But he's also done a similar thing to another player-- Nathan Redmond, who, I mean, where is Nathan Redmond? Nobody knows. So just going back to Tim Ream, though, all jokes apart, you're happy he's in, even though he's 342 years old?
Hunt: First of all, you've forgotten Tim Ream's punchline. Yes, Pep said, "If you were 24 instead of 34, you'd be in my team." Tim Ream said, "Thanks. I'm 35." I am happy that Tim Ream is in the team because where we are the most injury riddled is in central defense. And if Gregg still doesn't wanna have John Brooks, the hero of 2014, who Gregg apparently doesn't see the point of, then he needs at least one steady hand to go along with all these youngsters. And Tim is, you know, he's playing in the best league of the world. And, and he is a wise and unflappable old hand who also happens to play on the left side of defense, the same side as the gentleman who will be our starting left back. Antonee "Jedi" Robinson, self-nicknamed, therefore not a nickname we'll necessarily subscribe to. So yes, though I think it's great that we are the youngest side in the tournament, at least we're gonna be before he got in, I don't know if that math still holds up, I am incredibly happy that Gregg has included him.
[REBECCA LAUGHS]
Lowe: We'll talk more about the youth a little bit later on, but just sum up for me, Brendan, at the moment, your excitement levels, your belief in this team and Gregg Berhalter, and where you think USA are going.
Hunt: I truly believe this team can beat anyone on their day. I also truly believe that--
Lowe: Really?
Hunt: On their day, yeah. Wow. Wow. Which brings me to my second point. English hubris can come into play as well. "Really?" she says. Wow.
[REBECCA LAUGHS]
Lowe: Sorry, Sorry.
Hunt: Way to ingratiate yourself with most of our audience, Rebecca. Aye, yay, yay. Don't worry folks. She lives in California. I'm the American in England. She's the English person in America. She loves TCBY, she goes to Baja Fresh. I'm speculating, but I bet those things are true. Yeah, they can beat anyone on their day, you know, when all pistons are firing. Now, it's gonna be a lot harder without, you know, the injured Miles Robinson and Crystal Palace's very own Chris Richards.
Lowe: Chris Richards.
Hunt: But you know we have a midfield so good it's got a nickname. And that nickname is MMA! And I don't watch MMA, but MMA as a nickname, it's evocative and kicks ass, and we have options up front. Plus we always, always, our trademark, for decades has been, we will always have a goalkeeper capable of standing on their head, and that, would be sweet to watch. So it's possible. To win the whole tournament? Of course not, of course not. Get out the group? Yeah, maybe.
Lowe: Okay. goalkeepers, Zack Steffen not being included is weird.
Hunt: Yes. A little bit weird. For those for those, again, just tuning in. Since Gregg Berhalter has been coach, Zack Steffen has been pretty much his go-to, number one goalkeeper. And yeah, he just kinda lost his mojo. And he has since been surpassed by Matt Turner, formerly of New England Revolution, now of Arsenal, a guy who is very much a late bloomer in his career. And Zack Steffen not being there at all is strange. I feel like we haven't been told the whole thing.
Lowe: I agree. I think there's another reason why Zack Steffen's not there. I dunno what it is. It may come out. These things normally come out in the wash, but I think that's weird and I think it's detrimental to your team. I would just-- Finishing on United States for a second. Christian Pulisic, who plays for Chelsea-- Well, sometimes plays for Chelsea--
Hunt: How dare you.
Lowe: He's supposed to be your jewel, right, in your crown. He's supposed to be your best player. He's your captain. He's your talisman. He's supposed to be head and shoulders above pretty much anybody else. I would counter that, Brendan, and say to you that I think the best player in your team is Brenden Aaronson. And I think little Brenden Aaronson, who is what, 21 years old, 22 years old, from Philadelphia, formally of the Union. I'm right, right? And he, I think, having watched him play for Leeds this season in the Premier League, Brenden Aaronson, if you're looking for a player to follow, to love, to see real work ethic, passion, dedication, and talent, for me, he knocks Pulisic off the park.
Hunt: Well, you're exaggerating, frankly. You're-- You've gone too far, I think. I mean, Rebecca, you know, the hoary old chestnut of a football phrase, form is temporary, class is permanent. And Pulisic is class. And I think at Chelsea, he's just having a hard time, and he is being made to think too damn much, and they keep putting him at fucking wing back. Yeah, that's right. I said fucking wing back. I don't give a fuck. And… But you're right. Brenden's playing amazingly well, despite his inability to spell his own first name correctly. He's been amazing. I would say Tyler Adams, his teammate at Leeds, has been even better than he has been. But I think it is folly to say that either of them are better than Christian. But Christian now needs to prove it. You know? But now let's talk about England. Now folks, here's the thing about England. Here's the thing about England. They won the World Cup in 1966. They invented the game, as they're so fond of saying; they codified it. And then they were so good for so long they wouldn't even condescend to go to World Cups. World Cups were beneath them. And then when they finally went to a World Cup in 1950, who do they lose against but the United States of America, which was mostly comprised of a bunch of dudes from St. Louis and a dishwasher from Haiti, and our goalkeeper stood on his head, and the mighty England were defeated. Now, England has not done much of anything since that '66 World Cup win. They made it to the semifinals in '90 as Rebecca, so finally recalls, they made it to the semifinals also in 2018. And then the European Championship Final in 2021. Rebecca, my opening question is, it seems, especially given the 2018 performance that England do best when expectations are low, and expectations are a great, great burden on this team historically, at least in the 21st century. Discuss.
[REBECCA LAUGHS]
Lowe: I would agree with that. I would agree that we do poorly when expectations are high. The problem is that expectations on the England team right now, coming off the 2018 semifinals and the 2020 or 2021 European Championship final, which we lost on penalties, those penalties again, to Italy, the expectations should be high, right? Based on our recent prowess under Gareth Southgate. However, our form, since the summer of '21, has been nothing short of abysmal. And I think there are low expectations. The problem with England, right, is this. English people and football and the England national team, we can try our hardest, right? To lower expectations. We can say, "Oh, we're not very good. We haven't been very good for about a year and a half, so we're not gonna win the World Cup." But then, just in our dreams, we lie there in a quiet moment and it starts to just trickle into the brain, that we're England, and that we invented the sport, and we are due a World Cup. And it could just, could happen in 2022, because we have Phil Foden, we have Harry Kane, we have no defense, but we'll get onto that later. But we have some good, if not great players. So I'm gonna agree with you. When expectations are high, we're rubbish. The problem is expectations are pretty much always high, no matter what, for England. And that's a problemo.
[BRENDAN LAUGHS]
Hunt: Well, sometimes it's realistic and sometimes it isn't. And this time I think it is realistic. I think, you know, again, their form has not been great this year, but it's hard to get up for a Nations League game in Bulgaria or whatever, or Hungary, when you've, you know, been to the heights that they've been to in the last three years. But Rebecca, your glowing tribute to the potential of your nation's football team brings us to a feature that we like to call Optimist/Pessimist.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Hunt: Now, Rebecca, as you well know, every episode at least one time, we are gonna attack a given topic or a team, and we're gonna play Optimist/Pessimist, because no football fan has the ability to have a level-headed point of view about their team. They only go to the emotional extremes where everything is going to be amazing, or everything is going to be a dumpster fire on a dumpster barge going off a waterfall made of fire. Alright, now as I mentioned, I'm most worried about the U.S. defense. So I asked you, what are your expectations for England's defense? First, optimist.
Lowe: Very difficult to be optimistic when you've included Harry freaking Maguire.
Hunt: Find a way. Find a way to be optimistic about Harry Maguire. Go.
Lowe: I can't, I mean, okay, he's a really nice bloke and maybe on the field he'll get chatting to the striker. They'll become really good friends. Maybe he'll distract them at a corner. And he'll do well. But the-- Oh God, it's so hard. I mean, that's it. I've gotta stop there on Harry Maguire.
Hunt: How will he distract them? Will he just be like, "Hey, look at my head and it's perfect square angles?" Have you ever seen anything so geometrically perfect, like a diamond and a melon at the same time?
[REBECCA LAUGHS]
Lowe: It's amazing. It's something to behold.
Hunt: It really is. Okay, well now, gosh, I wonder where this is going. Pessimist!
Lowe: He's gonna play Harry Maguire, who is going to make a number of ricks because he has not been in form for a year and a half. I know he's been good for England, I don't care. He doesn't play for Manchester United. He was on the bench. He's the captain of Manchester United. Cannot even get on the field of play to take on Fulham at Craven Cottage. They played Victor Lindelöf instead of Harry Maguire. That's basically all you need to know. John Stones has no pace. Kyle Walker is injured. We do have good fullbacks. I do like Kieran Trippier, but am I supposed to be being pessimistic? Basically, we're gonna let in a load of goals. So please can we not let the ball get past the midfield, because otherwise it's over for us. Right? That's that. That's England. Your turn. Do I have to do the voice?
Hunt: Yeah, a hundred percent or it's not the feature. I mean, I think people came here for, you know, Rebecca Lowe, Woman of a Thousand Voices.
Lowe: So, USA, youngest squad, apparently, going to Qatar, right? That's a massive excuse. Getting that in nice and early, by the way, "We're young. We're building for 2026." Okay? So youngest squad ever, be an optimist.
Hunt: Great thing about being young is that you're too stupid to know when you're overmatched. Youth can say, "Oh my gosh, remember that time that we kicked Guatemala's ass? Let's do that same thing to England and then to Holland and then to Argentina, because that's who we are." The blissful ignorance of youth carries the day. That's why we like to have soldiers in wars who are like 18 because they don't know yet that that, you know, it's pretty heavy over there. And you know that war analogies and football, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, youth wins.
Lowe: Okay? Just wanna bring in the fact that you mentioned Guatemala 'cause you guys have such difficult games around here, okay? And--
Hunt: Like you've been saving it all your life. They're just waiting to bring it up.
Lowe: I have, okay, youngest squad then at the World Cup is gonna be a disaster. Pessimistic me up.
Hunt: That blissful ignorance of youth underestimates the task at hand. Overestimates themselves, doesn't respect Wales, doesn't respect Iran, and focuses too much on England. That tries too hard and finds themselves chalking this whole thing up to a learning experience that holds 'em in good stead for 2026. But then a missed opportunity goes by and we're all bummed out. And also the USA England game, the day after Thanksgiving, is likely to be the highest-rated soccer game in the history of American television. There is an enormous opportunity there. And if they failed to capitalize on that, it is a real missed opportunity, not just for them and for this tournament, but for the sport as a whole in this country. And it's a drag that, you know, that these guys are even burdened with having to think about that. No other team who's coming to this tournament has to think about, you know, representing this sport and promoting the sport in the United States. And they certainly don't have to think about it now as much as they used to, but it's still gonna be there. And that game has a lot of weight to it and hopefully, hopefully that will not, you know, crush their tiny young egg-like brains.
Lowe: So I have to basically think about the country that my son was born in on Black Friday and hope that they win so that this country that I live in, that I make my living in, that my son was born in, that my son is gonna play football in for his whole life, does well. I mean, this is gonna be very, very difficult for me.
Hunt: It's very much in your interest to root for the United States, Rebecca. Just admit it, just surrender. Take back what you said about Pulisic and get on board.
[REBECCA LAUGHS]
Lowe: Ain't happening.
[ELECTRONIC MUSIC]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Hunt: All right, here's the thing, folks. We're gonna talk a little bit here about the elephant in the room, which is essentially the travesty that is that this wonderful event that the world gets to enjoy every four years is being held in Qatar. If you're listening to this, that means you're probably one of the people who are not choosing to boycott the tournament as a whole. People who are doing that, I have incredible respect for. I'm too much of a sucker and I care too much about my national teams to not support them in this. But you are all likely familiar with the list of, let's call them crimes, I guess. Some literal crimes, which, you know, the bribery that won them the bid in the first place. The countless report about the thousands of migrant workers who died building the stadiums, and workers' rights in general, the fact that they have one of the highest GDPs by per capita in the world and all these workers are getting, if they're lucky, a dollar an hour. The fact that homosexuality is straight-up illegal in this country. And gay fans are being advised to think twice before they do something as egregious as holding hands. The media is also not being treated great. Just this week, my friend Grant Wahl was told by security to delete a photo he took when he was picking up his media credentials. That controversial photo was a picture of the World Cup logo. A Danish TV crew was stopped while live on TV by security who threatened to break their camera. They were just standing there on the side of the road filming. The list goes on and on and on, and there'll be additions to that list as we go along. So we can't pretend it's not happening and that it's not there. And we have to address it, Rebecca, and we have to acknowledge that we feel conflicted.
Lowe: We do. And let me ask you this. So all those things you just listed makes me angry and I think it makes me-- I dunno actually, they all make me angry. But the fact that it all begun all those years ago and we actually, we could have stopped it, Brendan, we actually could have stopped and we didn't. And that is, for me, one of the biggest crimes in this situation is this didn't actually have to happen. Having said that, am I right in saying you were actually invited by Qatar to the World Cup?
Hunt: That is correct. Yeah. A representative of Qatar reached out, trying no doubt to capitalize on the synergy of Ted Lasso and American football and English football. I was offered free flight, free hotel, for at least as long as the group stage. And it was, you know, claimed that there would be no expectation of social-media posting, which I thought was rather unlikely. And so I declined. As much as I want to support my team, and I will do so from home, I do think two things. One is the World Cup is for the world. It is a unique quadrennial event where the entire world gets to focus on one thing. And I think that's special. And I don't think the ills of the host nation get to interfere with that. And also Qatar is doing this for, you know, a long term vision of they want people to start, you know, going to Qatar for their family vacations and whatnot. And they want to, you know-- They have this, they call it their legacy project. I mean, one of the best things we can do if we're not boycotting this, is just to never go to Qatar, never tell people, "Hey, you should check out Qatar." And frankly that's gonna be the easiest part 'cause I got no interest. No, never, not going there. And… But anyone who is, I wish you the best.
Lowe: Well said, with you on that. What I'm really interested in is the players and whether or not you think they have an obligation to protest. So we've seen early signs, haven't we? So the Dutch who are in the same group as Qatar, so that's group A, them plus England, Wales, Germany, Belgium, France, and a few others are in this One Love campaign. if you dunno what that is, they're saying that their team captains are gonna wear arm bands with a rainbow heart as a demonstration of LGBTQ pride. I saw in the news as well that the American team unveiled a rainbow crest earlier this week. It won't be used on the field, but they're gonna use it in other ways. I saw it actually at their training ground in Qatar and it's giant. Other teams have taken a really strong stance as well. The Danish team unveiled kits that have got faded crests because the kit manufacturer, Hummel, had said that, and this is a quote, "We don't wish to be visible during a tournament that has cost thousands of people their lives." Then quite a few weeks ago now, but it really went viral and I loved it, Australian players-- I know you did too. In fact, we texted about it. Australian players put out that video calling for migrant workers families to be compensated in some way. So I guess my question is, how does this develop throughout the tournament? Do you want to see this from players all the time throughout this tournament? Do you think they have an obligation or the devil's advocate, are footballers there to play football?
Hunt: I would love it if there were protests. I don't think that we should be necessarily demanding or expecting that of footballers who are there to, you know, to achieve their life goal. You know, and it's-- They don't necessarily all have the vocabulary to be able to speak on this, I mean… Now, some are anyway. I think all the little cosmetic protests that people will say, "Well that's not much of a protest." You know, I think there's value in that. What Hummel's doing, the rainbow imagery, because it makes little kids go, "Daddy, why is that happening?" And then people have to explain it in living rooms around the world, including in other countries where homosexuality is illegal. So I think, you know, the little graceful protests are valuable, but if there are bigger protests coming, can't wait.
Lowe: Yeah, no, that's a good point about kids. I have a six and a half year old little boy who is so excited for this. This will be his 1990 World Cup that was for me. And I hope he asks me those questions 'cause I want to be able to explain them to him in the living room as we're watching these games, whether it's protests or like you say the, the arm band or whatever it is. I want to be able to explain them and try and educate him at this early stage. Talk to me, you're in England right now, you're still filming Ted Lasso. So where are you spending the World Cup? Are you gonna be in the States and England? What's the situation? How are you watching it?
Hunt: I should be home and in my bed for the first time in a very long time. I may watch the World Cup from my bed. I may eschew any parties because I'm just not ready to socialize yet. And also apologies in advance everyone, there'll be at least one episode of this show where I'm far too drunk to have a microphone in front of me, but I will anyway. So yes, I'll be watching it from home, possibly from my living room because where else would I wanna be at 3 o'clock in the morning or whenever these first round of games are going. You have the month off from work. Where are you gonna be watching?
[REBECCA LAUGHS]
Lowe: By the way, I mean, amazing. In amongst the fact that I've booked in every single possible Christmas activity for my six year old you can possibly do. We've got Polar Express, we've got some light show. We're meeting Santa at least on three occasions. | mean, we are doing Christmas tree lighting, we are doing everything because I can't normally do that, right? Cause I'm working in this normally very busy time. So we're going to Hawaii, so a couple of episodes will come from Hawaii. Little concerned that Hawaii is another three hours behind California. So England Iran kicks off at 2:00 AM, so I really calculated that well. So I'll be up in the middle of the night in Hawaii for one of our episodes and to watch England, Iran and USA. and then I'll also finish off the podcast in England because we are going to restart the Premier League season live from the Emirates Stadium, you'll be delighted to hear, for Arsenal against West Ham on Boxing Day. Then we're going to Old Traffic, then we're going to Elland Road to meet Brenden Aaronson, my favorite. And so I think that in that in between bit between Hawaii and England, I'll just be at home here in California. So excited to watch it all but most excited that maybe just maybe I'll be in England for the World Cup final and we'll win it and we'll have an open top bus parade and the whole country will lose its you know what. And I'm gonna be right in the middle of it on this microphone talking to you.
Hunt: This has been Optimist/Pessimist. That's our show for the first time out. Rebecca, I enjoyed this tremendously. If you are loving the show, or even just kinda liking it, subscribe on Apple Podcasts and be sure to rate and review us. You know, it really helps other people find the show.
[REBECCA LAUGHS]
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Lowe: And for around the clock World Cup news, plus live score, standings, follow along on the Apple News app in My Sports where available.
Hunt: We'll be back with more World Cup coverage right here in your podcast feed tomorrow. And you know who's gonna be listening, Rebecca? Christian Pulisic. And I hope you have your apologies rehearsed.
Lowe: Oh God.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]