Brendan Hunt: I'm really tired of the soccer versus football conversation, people. Okay? It's okay for a thing to have two names. And by the way, soccer's an English word. For English people who are mad about the word soccer, you invented it in the first place. And I'm tired of having this conversation.
Rebecca Lowe: No, we're not mad. But more importantly than football, soccer, it's crisps, not chips.
Hunt: Hmm. Counterpoint, it's fries, not chips.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
[WHISTLE BLOWS]
From Apple News and Meadowlark Media, I'm Brendan Hunt.
Lowe: And I'm Rebecca Lowe. And this is "After The Whistle."
Hunt: On today's show, England and the U.S. have played their first matches.
Lowe: Yeah, we have.
Hunt: And we have notes. One of us has more notes than the other. We'll deep dive on all of the emotion of this first full day of the World Cup and hold back nothing.
Lowe: We'll also give you something else. And that is that Brendan has two teams if you didn't already know. He gets his chance to talk about the Dutch again and how they fared against Senegal.
Hunt: No time to waste. And listeners, a repeated warning$%There will be adult language. God fucking damn it!
[LOWE LAUGHS]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Hunt: God damn it! [GROANS]
Lowe: OK. So, I mean, we are what, minutes, after the final whistle of USA-Wales, which can I just say was one, for the neutral, one of the best games I've seen in a long time. But you're not neutral. So, Brendan, of course this is audio. I will tell the listeners your head is in your hands. Talk us through top of your mind thoughts please.
Hunt: [GROANS] OK. Before we get into my emotions, you will find, people, that I am very glass half full about these sorts of things. And there is a macro point to be made. In a tournament with a group stage, the most important thing in your first game is to not lose, whether you are a favorite against an underdog, whether you are two evenly matched teams, losing is a disaster, and any draw is actually acceptable. And I would've accepted a draw going into this game. There are still points to be gained in at least one of these next two games. [SIGHS SHAKILY] So, I will not join the troll tirade that is taking over all social media at this time, I'm quite sure. Everybody, slow your fucking roll because it is early doors. Having said that, to have taken the lead against Wales and not won against Wales is a blow. It's a blow, Rebecca. I'm not gonna lie. [GROANS]
Lowe: OK. OK. Let me jump in. So, what did you make of the personnel? What did you make of the fact that we didn't see Gio Reyna at all? What did you make of the fact that Brenden Aaronson was left on the bench? What did you make generally of Gregg Berhalter's team?
Hunt: I thought the back line was right. I thought the midfield was right. As much as we may love Aaronson, the MMA midfield of McKennie, Musah and Adams has been a winning combination for us and shown great chemistry in the past. So, I thought they were automatic. And then I think Pulisic is automatic. I thought…
Lowe: And he did well. And he did well today. I have to say I know I was a bit harsh on him episode one, but he is the gem, and he is the face of your team, and he carried the ball up field. He ate up ground. He had an assist. He stepped up.
Hunt: He also was clearly the target of Wales' defensive strategy. I mean, he took some lumps today. And then, Josh Sargent, I generally would've liked. But I think the logic for Josh Sargent as I think Gregg said, USA Coach Gregg Berhalter said, when he announced the roster, you know, Josh is doing well in the Championship, and Wales has a lot of Championship players. But interestingly, Wales' entire back line was topflight players, not all necessarily from England. So, I was like, "Huh, I don't know about that," and I maybe would've rather seen, you know, Weah up front for this game and Aaronson or Reyna on the right. Not playing Reyna at all is concerning. Like part of the, you know, the Twitter dark cloud formation that is forming all over the internet at this time is, you know, that we were not aggressive enough in the second half, which may be true. In fact, it's probably true. But even if that was intentional and not just a response to Wales flipping the switch, Gio Reyna is the type of guy you want in there because his ability to keep the ball is absolutely incredible. And then Aaronson when he came in, I don't think was particularly effective. Maybe he needs to start to be effective, but that would be a shame 'cause not everyone's gonna start every game. So, personnel-wise, I was generally fine. I was hoping Sargent would do better. He had the first chance of the game, and oh, that he had converted.
Lowe: It's so interesting, Brendan, because obviously, you're looking at this through the stars-and-stripes glasses, and I'm looking at it through, I mean, a little stars-and-stripes glasses because I did want the USA to win. I have a lot of friends who are Welsh, and obviously, I'm from Great Britain. So, should I want Wales to win? Maybe. But I live in America. I'm an American citizen. My child was born in America, so I want USA to do well. Not on Friday, but today, I wanted you guys to win. I thought you played better than I expected you to. I thought you looked a bit tired in that sort of first section of the second half. But then, you got a second wind, which was really interesting, partly down to substitutions. But I thought Pulisic, like I said, was excellent. I like the fact that you didn't look to me like you were trying to just sit back on a 1-nil win. You were trying to go and get another goal, which obviously is risky, but I like that approach. I was pleasantly surprised. Yes. It was a terrible decision from Zimmerman. I mean, the guy is gonna have nightmares all night tonight. You don't need to go to ground in the area, especially not on Gareth Bale, especially when we know what he can do from penalties. So that moment, Zimmerman… I don't know. Lack of experience on the biggest stage of all? But he's a pretty experienced guy. So, what did you… I mean, you must have known the minute he went in on Gareth Bale, you were just like, "Oh God."
Hunt: Yeah. And I got texts from various friends, like, "How is that a penalty? He got to the ball first." I'm like, "Yeah, guys, you can't… It doesn't really count if you get the ball by going through the man's legs."
Lowe: Was that Christine and Jared?
Hunt: Christine and Jared? [CHUCKLES] No, Christine and Jared hadn't arrived yet. Right after they walked in, just as Bale had the ball in the spot, and they're like, "Oh, is the shootout starting?" Get outta here, Jared! [GROANS] They're the worst.
Lowe: Oh, and Turner got a hand to it as well. He got a hand to it. I've gotta tell you though, my moment of the game was the last minute when Turner was off his line and Bale was lining up with his left foot. And then he got crunched from behind by Kellyn Acosta. Without doubt, the tactical foul of the World Cup so far. That, for me, was as good as a goal. I was up there like a proper English woman applauding a professional foul. That actually for me was crucial because Bale, with Turner off his line, you wouldn't bet against him.
Hunt: Huge foul from Kellyn Acosta. That was an absolutely game-saving foul. And that is the kind of thing that Kellyn Acosta is in there for. He's great. I was really glad he made the team. [GROANS] But Rebecca, it's just… [GROANS]
Lowe: Oh, no.
Hunt: Here's the thing. As I said, I do believe this team can beat anyone, and I do believe that they can beat England despite what today's results would suggest, but I believe the history of football is pockmarked with teams that only got a draw on their first match and then went on to not only get out of the group, but even further than that.
Lowe: I want to say 58%. I think I heard Landon Donovan postgame on the coverage say 58% of teams who draw their opening game at World Cup get out the group. So, it's not terrible.
Hunt: OK. And then it was like 84 for a win, which obviously would be preferable, but it's a bummer. It's a bummer. It's a bummer. But we cannot act like the sky is falling here. Oh, apparently there had been a contest heading into this World Cup along the lines of, "Be a referee for a day." And the winner got to referee this match.
Lowe: [LAUGHS] I know. I know.
Hunt: Both teams hated him. Absolute inconsistency, stopping the match for injured players who did not have head injuries, and then no longer stopping the match for injured players. Giving out yellow cards like they're fucking vaccines day one of the pandemic. That's fun. That's funny stuff there.
Lowe: But I don't think you're alone in that. I don't think the refereeing so far has been great. We had inconsistency in the England-Iran game, and the yellow cards are being dished out, like you say, all over the place, which I find really worrying because all that that's gonna do is deny the world, the five billion people watching, of the best players in the later rounds. Because I think it's two yellows over the course of the group stages, and you miss a game.
Hunt: Group stage and all the way to the quarterfinals. It doesn't erase till after the quarterfinals.
Lowe: Right. So, we are gonna be denied some of the best players in all of these teams. So, have a higher bar for what is a yellow card. The Premier League adopted it last year. They took a higher bar for… Basically gave more grace. Let's give them more grace to keep these players on the field.
Hunt: Yeah, you know, you see this in March Madness every once in a while. Like, there's tense calls or tight calls that happen in the early rounds, which is… and it turns out these are the referees establishing the rules and reminding people that they're in control. But the cost of it in football is just too high. It felt intentional, and maybe it's something we will see for the remainder of the first games in each group, but oof. It's not gonna be fun if it continues after that.
Lowe: I agree. I agree. OK. Have you got anything else you wanna say? Just get off that chest of yours. That chest that, listeners, I can tell you there's a giant USA crest just blazoned across Brendan's chest. Anything else you just wanna get off that big, old chest?
Hunt: #Believe, baby.
Lowe: #TheGuys.
Hunt: [CHUCKLES] These are The Guys! No, actually thank you for reminding me of that. These are The Guys. Now, here's the other thing. There are people who are gonna be like, "Oh, well, fuck. Why didn't we do this? Why didn't do that? We should have put in this person. We should have put in that person." This is who we have. This is who we are. There will be no trades. There'll be no free agency. I mean, yeah, maybe Reyna should have been in there and blah, blah, blah, blah. But these are the guys. This is who we got. Get behind them. It's not over yet. Chill.
Lowe: It's really not, Brendan. I really think… I'm really trying to lift your spirits here. I think you're a little bit too down for what happened. I think you played well. You were the better team. Pulisic seems to be on it. I think it's gonna be fine. I think you're gonna get through. So, I just don't want you to be too doom and gloom right now.
Hunt: I'm not.
Lowe: But I do think had you…
Hunt: Me? No, don't be silly, Rebecca. I'm just…
Lowe: I do think had you never gone to Holland all those years ago and been exposed to the wonderful game that is football, your life right now would be a lot less stressful.
Hunt: Oh, yeah, yeah. That was a huge mistake. That has not worked out for me in any way, shape or form. Also, "Ted Lasso" would never have happened in that scenario. But yes, Holland. What a time. What a time. Did you say Holland?
Lowe: [SPEAKING IN AN AMERICAN ACCENT] Oh, what a segue. Oh my God.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
If you're new to the podcast, listeners, because I just mentioned Holland because Brendan moved there for, what, five years back in the day… And we are allowing him, here on this podcast, just 60 seconds every episode to give us his update on his feelings of his second team. Now listeners, I just want you to know this is an anomaly. Like, you're not supposed to have two teams.
Hunt: Disagree.
Lowe: It's literally written somewhere on a stone. Somewhere.
Hunt: It's a very English way of thinking. That is not true. And that's not an American way of thinking. Everyone here has a second team.
Lowe: Which is a little tiny bit weird. But because you are you, and I like you, I'm gonna allow you a second team. Sure. And I'm gonna give you your "Dutch in 60," which is the part of the show where Brendan gets to talk about the Dutch just for 60 seconds 'cause nobody wants any more. I'm holding up a clock, Brendan. So, you know how long you've got. Let's go. Right now.
Hunt: Mm-hmm. OK.
[TIMER TICKING]
All right. All right, everybody. Holland, again, very entertaining team going forward. You're gonna love watching them. They're a great time. And today was their toughest game in the group 'cause they played African champions, Senegal. I was very worried about it. Their other group members are Ecuador, who beat Qatar real bad. And also, wouldn't that be fun if Qatar didn't even score a goal? That would be delightful. Anywho, real tense game, tactical back and forth, much respect to Senegal. They know what's up. But Holland pulled it out with two goals in the last, oh, well I would say, you know, eight minutes 'cause one was in the, like, 82nd minute. But then, the second one was in like the 99th minute. Gotta give it to Louis van Gaal, the coach. They call him the Iron Tulip, but not in Holland because why would they do that? But he started a goalkeeper who has never played for the national team before. And he had a clean sheet. He had some badass saves. Louis van Gaal knows what's up. And you should love him. You should love him in his weird, you know, melted face that when he was born was pressed against some kind of wall. And now that's the face he has, and he's the best.
[TIMER DINGS]
Lowe: OK, I have to stop you. That's it. That's it. That's the one minute. But I have to say. I just, I… We're not spending longer than 60 seconds, but just very quickly, I also looked at the lineup. I will tell you that I didn't watch the game because had to get up at 3 a.m. for England, went back to sleep, then had to get up again for USA. But when I saw the Holland lineup, I was like, "Who is that goalkeeper?" Amazing.
Hunt: Yeah. So were his teammates.
Lowe: [CHUCKLES] Well played. Well played.
Hunt: Now, on the second team thing, just for to explain myself…
Lowe: Oh, OK. Go on.
Hunt: Really quickly.
Lowe: Sure, sure.
Hunt: I learned to love football while I was in Holland. I lived with eight Dutch guys who got me into the game there. And so, I'm unabashed in my continued affection for Holland. If they had to play the U.S. in second round, I'm rooting for the U.S. the whole time. And that will not be an issue. But also, Rebecca, more commonly than you think and with a different version than me, there's tons of Americans who have a second team, you know, because we're an immigrant nation. So, there are tons and tons of people who also support Italy, also support Guatemala. Also support whoever. So…
Lowe: I guess. I guess.
Hunt: Let's not be so imperial, all right?
Lowe: Pipe down, basically. Pipe down.
Hunt: There was another game today apparently. And if you like a little more of a sunny attitude and a bit less cursing or if there will be cursing, it will have, you know, a British folksiness that you will find quirky and endearing. Rebecca, talk to us about England six, Iran two.
Lowe: [SIGHS] I mean, I'm not sure where to start. I'm so sorry. I'm so happy. I'm trying to just keep a lid.
Hunt: You should be.
Lowe: I'm trying to keep a lid on it 'cause as everyone says, it was only Iran, and they were not very good. I guess I want to run through a few things, Brendan, see if you agree with me. For me, the man of the match and a breakout star at this World Cup is and will be Jude Bellingham. If you don't know anything about Jude Bellingham, he's 19 years of age. He plays for Borussia Dortmund in Germany, having moved there in 2020 from Birmingham City in the Championship in England, the league below the Premier League. When he left, he came up through the ranks at Birmingham, is a local boy. When he left Birmingham City, they did something that doesn't happen in England. It's quite an American thing, this, but it does not happen in England. They retired his shirt number. The number 22 at Birmingham City is retired following the departure of Jude Bellingham. That is how good a player they thought he was. He made his debut just after he turned 16 years of age at Birmingham. And they knew they could see what a player he was and what a player he is. He is a Rolls blooming Royce. I thought he was the player of the game. You're shaking your head? You're nodding your head?
Hunt: I'm shaking my head in awe of Jude Bellingham. I mean, I think his stature and composure… Like, he not only seems like he's 25. He seems like he's been captaining England for multiple tournaments already. Like, he is so good. He's legit.
Lowe: Yeah, I agree. He's special. Now the back line… Actually, funny enough, I think I mentioned Kieran Trippier on one of my Instagram stories being, for me, the second most important player in that team. Didn't do it for me today. Wasn't on his game really today. Gave the ball away a lot. But that's OK because alongside him, Stones and Maguire… I mean, isn't this Maguire story fascinating? He doesn't play for Manchester United despite being captain. He's lost his form for the last year and a half. But Gareth Southgate continues to rely on him, continues to name him to a starting lineup, and he hit the bar. He played fine. He brought the ball out of the back like we know he can do. He's not got a lot of pace, and he did lose his man for their first goal. And then, he went off feeling unwell apparently. So, I don't know whether we'll see him again in the next couple of games. But he did OK. And John Stones was excellent. Luke Shaw was excellent. So, I was happy with the back line. And that's a big thing for England. I think we talked about in episode one, defensively England have been weak recently. So, that for me was a real positive. Moving further forward, Rice and Bellingham, brilliant. And then the Saka-Sterling-Mount triumvirate… Mason Mount, who's played for Chelsea and has been out of form pretty much, or kind of patchy form really for the last six months or so for Chelsea in a Chelsea shirt, really good today. Back to Mason Mount. Sterling, always reliable, comes through for England. And Saka, that big, old smile. He comes from where I come from in London. So, I do take sometimes quite a lot of credit for his talent. He was magnif today. And then, how many times did England score six goals and Harry Kane doesn't score? Never. So that was actually a great thing to spread the goals around the team. I think five different players scored. Because of course Rashford came on, instant impact inside seconds. Marcus Rashford with a goal. Jack Grealish with a lovely tap-in from a Callum Wilson pullback. Callum Wilson been on the pitch a few minutes, had the wherewithal to look at the angle and think, "I'm not gonna score here. It'd be better if I pull it back for Jack Grealish." Magic. More on Grealish later, by the way. And I think the overall thought I came away from it with was, "Thank you, Birmingham, for producing Jude Bellingham. And thank you Pep Guardiola." Because the impact Pep Guardiola has had on the play of John Stones, the play of Phil Foden, and the play of Jack Grealish, especially the first two, Foden and Stones, is there for all to see. So, we as a country have to thank Pep Guardiola for coming to England and having the impact that he has had as the Manchester City manager on this England team. He has made players better, and he has created players in the form of Phil Foden. So, thank you, Pep. Thank you, Birmingham. What a start to the World Cup, and England don't normally start fast.
Hunt: It was imperious today. To score six goals in a World Cup is massive, and it's a real show of intent. I thought it was pretty great given what happened in their last tournament match, for England, that Saka and Rashford both scored. That was a bit of a, "Screw you world."
Lowe: Just remind people what happened in the last tournament game.
Hunt: At the end of the European Championship final, Saka and Rashford and Jadon Sancho were left to take the final three penalties. Saka, despite the fact that he was, what, 18 at that time, or was he 19?
Lowe: Nineteen.
Hunt: Rashford and Sancho having been subbed in in the 120th minute to take those penalties. It was a real poop sandwich that they were served, but then they missed all those, and there was massive racist vitriol and bile and stupidity that came at them on social medias, which was then redoubled by the reaction in support of them, which was kind of amazing. And they, you know, as they went to stadium with their clubs the following season, they were getting rounds of applause, which was pretty great to see. But for them to have that comeback and reclaiming of their status was, I thought, kind of badass. I thought also this game was a… This is something I think that's gonna be important in this World Cup, but it was a real win for continuity of coaching. 'Cause you know, Iran, for all their other problems and everything else they had to deal with off the pitch, they've changed coaches recently on top of everything else. It's a coach they've had before, that being Carlos Queiroz. But after a lot of discontent in the squad with their previous coach, Dragan Skočić, he was fired just four months before the World Cup. That's not how you keep things flowing and consistent, whereas Gareth Southgate has been there for six years, and everyone knows what they're doing. They know their roles. They can slot right in. And why that's important is because there was no preseason really here or no pre-tournament friendlies to speak of. So, there was no time to really work on what a team's gonna do. So, teams coming in already knowing what they're doing may have a bit of a leg up, and this was possibly a demonstration of that. Or just, England's that good and or Iran is that bad.
Lowe: I want to pick up on two other topics, Brendan, around the game, which I think are both really important. So, my concern was that one of them was gonna overshadow the game and be a distraction for the players on the eve of the game because it was such a big story. And that is the OneLove armband that Harry Kane wanted to wear as England captain in support of the LGBTQ community. He had made it clear. Gareth Southgate had made it clear. The team have made it clear that they want to support. And Harry Kane wants to wear the armband. On the eve of the tournament, FIFA said, and it had been a long ongoing conversation between the English FA and FIFA who have their own anti-discrimination armband, by the way. But it's not got the same impact as the OneLove that Harry Kane wanted to wear. FIFA told the English FA if Harry Kane wears this armband during the game, he will get booked. And this created obviously huge headlines and a massive amount of debate, which I find really tough for Harry Kane because it's something that obviously was then decided out of his hands. Maybe it was this English FA who said to Gareth Southgate, "No, we're not gonna do it. He can't afford to get booked for this reason." Maybe it was Southgate deciding it. Maybe it was Kane. Who knows? But in the end, he didn't wear it. So, therefore, he didn't get booked, and he wore the anti-discrimination armband from FIFA instead. [SIGHS] I find it difficult to come down on one side or the other, Brendan, with this because it's a case of what's more important, isn't it? Football or morality. And I see the argument, the likes of the former Manchester United player Roy Keane, who's come out today saying, "He should have worn it. He should have worn it. If that's the stance, that's the stance from the English FA. He should have worn the armband. He should have taken the yellow card and moved on. Didn't have to wear it again in the game subsequently, but he should have worn it to make a statement." And wow, imagine if he'd worn it and taken a yellow card inside the first ten seconds. 'Cause I assume the referee would've, what, the game would've kicked off, and the referee would've walked over to Harry Kane… I mean, how does a yellow… How do you get a yellow card for something you're wearing in real life? How does that even work? Before the game, he gives him a yellow card? When he's walking out, he gives him a… Very weird. Had he done that, I think it would've made incredible headlines around the world. I'm actually getting tingles thinking about what a statement that would've been from our captain, England captain. I would've loved it. [SIGHS] Having said that, I also kind of understand that it's not up to Harry Kane alone to take the punishment for something that he's trying to do for other people. It's really difficult. Where do you stand on it?
Hunt: [BREATHES DEEPLY] I mean, it would have been amazing if he had done it just this one game and then not done it again. I mean, he doesn't get a lot of yellow cards. It seems pretty unlikely they would lose him later. So, you know, he'd be the guy to do it. And if he wasn't gonna do it, I also wondered if like, well, what about just holding it up, you know, like John Cusack's boombox from "Say Anything" while you're standing on the bench there? Which suggests to me, too, there may yet be other things to come that can garner attention. And, you know, there were other teams that were gonna wear the OneLove armband, so we'll see if anyone else does it. But if Harry Kane had done it, it would've had particular weight. By the way, to that end, Jonathan Liew at the "Guardian" has already written a really great column about this very issue. Perhaps a harsh column, but definitely worth a read. But conversely, yeah, I mean, it's the World Cup, and I understand not wanting to take the risk. But oh, it would've been powerful.
Lowe: It would've been. I think the bottom line is that the sanction of a yellow card for wearing that armband is ridiculous. And therefore, we have to look at FIFA, of course, as the real culprits in this. It shouldn't have come down on Harry Kane's shoulders. And I go back to what I said, maybe episode one, episode two, all of this could have been avoided if the football family and the football world had come together ten years ago and said, "We ain't doing this," 'cause we don't want in 2022 to be in a situation where Harry Kane can't wear an armband unless he gets a yellow card.
Hunt: They don't wanna be in a situation where they feel the need to wear an armband because of where the tournament's being held in the first place.
Lowe: Correct. So, that was one of the things I wanted to talk about. The other thing, of course, what you made of the Iran players not singing the national anthem.
Hunt: Amazing.
Lowe: Incredible. I mean, it was such a poignant emotional moment. Many of the Iran fans booing the national anthem afterwards. Carlos Queiroz, apparently according to reports, saying, "Why did the fans even turn up if they're gonna boo?" No, they're not booing… [CHUCKLES] I mean, it's an incredible lack of understanding of a situation because these fans are obviously booing the regime. They're not booing the players. And anyone listening, if you're not following what's happening in Iran, just a quick update for you. A few months ago, a young woman was detained in Iran for not wearing her hijab correctly, and she died in police custody. Since then, there have been massive protests on the streets making national news across world, and the Iranian regime has cracked down brutally. Hundreds of people have been killed. Just the other day, UNICEF said more than 50 children are among those who have been killed. It has been horrific. And you know, Brendan… [BREATHES DEEPLY] So many people to feel sorry for in this situation. The players as well. You know, they're in a very difficult situation. It seems they do want to support the protests, but they can't really speak out. But that was when, as is so often the case, politics and football collide and, in that moment, again sending a message to the world. They're brave. They're really blooming brave.
Hunt: That's pretty great. The amount of fans who try to come in with the Persian flag as well as opposed to the Iranian flag and they, like another person who we'll talk about soon, they were refused entry or told to turn their shirts around. Just the amount of draconian control that is trying to be exerted on people for wearing T-shirts. Do they not see that this will only make these messages louder and more pronounced? It's incredibly shortsighted and stupid. And… [BREATHES DEEPLY] You know, I saw a great tweet today that I actually retweeted that bears some repeating. It's by a woman named Kim McCauley, her username kimischilling. "My favorite thing about the World Cup is that it's basically reverse sportswashing. The vast majority of the world had no opinion about Qatar ten years ago and now hates them. Meh. Good job." And that's a fun twist in the tale.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Now again, people, we were talking about England and the USA so much because she's from England, and I'm from the USA and, you know, we like to talk about our teams while they're still in the tournament, and they won't be for long. So eventually, this will go away. But for now, we're pretty focused on that. And we are adding an episode because of the England-USA game that's coming up on Friday, we will have an England-USA preview, dedicated preview that will come to you on Wednesday, for which you will hear our optimism and our pessimism going into that game. And there may be a special guest.
Lowe: Ooh.
[LAUGHTER]
Hunt: See, Rebecca didn't even know. So, here's a few thoughts, few final thoughts, bits and bobs as we carry you away. Rebecca.
Lowe: Yeah. Quite a lot of final thoughts actually. The first one I wanna talk about, you mentioned, I think you hinted at it earlier on, Brendan. If anybody follows Grant Wahl, the U.S. soccer writer, he's out there right now in Qatar and covering it really, really well. And he posted a tweet before the USA game when he tried to get into the stadium wearing a soccer ball on his T-shirt. Surrounding the soccer ball was a rainbow, obviously, in support of the LGBTQ community. And he was not allowed to enter the stadium. The security guard said to him, "That T-shirt is not allowed. You need to remove it before you get in." So far, from what I know, you may know more than me, Brendan, from what I know so far, he was detai… I can't even believe I'm saying the word. He was detained by the Qatari security at the stadium for half an hour, somehow managed to, however, convince them to get into the stadium. Do you know more?
Hunt: I read his piece about it, yeah. An important point, like, yes, obviously in the grand scheme of things, the shirt is supporting LGBT, but it was not specifically doing that. It was, you know, just the colors of the rainbow in a full circle around a soccer ball. But he was detained. He was told that that was a political shirt, and he was like, "I don't think it is." And he refused to take it off. It's a pretty great read. I recommend it. But he also points out, and I pointed out earlier that the directives that the various security personnel have been given are not to detain or stop or interfere with anyone just because they're wearing rainbow colors. And that was not true today. Eventually, someone from Qatari security apologized to him, and someone from FIFA apologized to him for what that's worth. But again, it speaks to what I was, you know, mentioning last episode that I'm so worried about is if there's some subset of security forces or membership who think that they have to come down hard on anything that is flawed or wrong in their eyes, it's gonna be a bad tournament. It's gonna be very, very bad.
Lowe: Yeah, it's just staggering. Absolutely staggering. Oher side of the coin, positivity to come out of the World Cup so far, which by the way, normally a World Cup needs a little bit of time to get going. I know the first game wasn't great, but I sort of feel like today has got it going at full throttle already. So, that's a great thing. But if you've seen the Jack Grealish goal celebration where he sort of… It's called the "waggle," I think now, the waggle dance. When he scored the goal after coming off the bench for England against Iran, he did this waggle celebration. And if you don't know the story, I have to tell you. If you do, it's just good to be reminded. A few weeks ago, the Premier League put out on their Twitter feed a video where Jack Grealish was sent a letter from a Manchester City fan, Grealish plays for Manchester City, a young boy called Finlay, who has cerebral palsy. And Finlay wrote a letter to Jack because Jack's sister has cerebral palsy, and Jack does a lot of work for cerebral palsy charities. And his sister is on all over his social media, and he's a brilliant big brother, which is what Finlay wrote in his letter to Jack saying, "Thank you for being such a brilliant big brother to your sister. Thank you for talking about cerebral palsy." And also, this little boy, Finlay, plays for the Manchester City Disability Team. So, he writes Jack this letter. Jack decides to not just write back, which he does, but after having posted the letter back to Finlay, which he writes himself. You know, these footballers get a lot of gyp, they get a lot of criticism that their PR companies, their managers, their agents do everything for them. He wrote the letter. He reads the letter out actually in this feature. He then turns up at training, or actually it was after a tournament that Finlay was playing in, and he just walked straight up to him. You've got to see the video. It's not difficult to find on the internet. It's one of the…
Hunt: It's amazing.
Lowe: It is amazing, Brendan. It is one of the… I mean, I welled up. I've seen it three times. I welled up in tears all three times. Finlay comes over and embraces him. Huge hugs, lovely conversation. And as part of the conversation, Finlay said, "Can you do a goal celebration for me when you next score a goal?" And Jack said, "Yeah, absolutely. I haven't really scored. I mean, I've only scored one this season, so I've got try and score one first. But what do you want me to do?" And Finlay said, "Can you do the worm?" Jack was like, "I literally can't do the worm. Like, that is so difficult." He's like, "No, you have to. You have to do the worm." And Jack really was like, "I think I might get injured if I do the worm." So, the little Finlay was like, "All right. All right. Do this." And he did the action of the waggle as it's now become known. And Jack said, "All right. All right. I'll do that. I'll do that when I next score." And he played a few more games in the Premier League after that video came out, didn't get a goal. Scored today, had a big celebration with all the England players. As the England players left Jack to himself to celebrate in front of the fans, he did the waggle. And honestly, it's making me… [GROANS] It's making me get emotional just talking about it now because they do get so much criticism, these players, but they are good people, and they do so much that we don't know about. That's just one thing that was filmed that we do know about. But the fact that he remembered, Brendan. The fact that he remembered that little boy and then put on his Twitter feed afterwards, "This is for you, Finlay," was just beautiful. And that is why this game is such magic. And that is why this game has such an impact that it has, which is why all the negativity also has an impact. But we can't always focus on that. We've gotta focus on the love. And I just love Jack Grealish and I love Finlay and the story's beautiful.
Hunt: Amen. Well, I would like to talk about fetishes.
Lowe: [CHUCKLES] OK. Wow.
Hunt: I thought there were three fetishes on display today on our television screens. One was FIFA's added time fetish, like, absolutely. [LAUGHS] There is clearly a new directive for referees to pause the clock. I mean, if the ball goes out of bounds or something. Like, it was one thing, you know, in the first half of England-Iran where, you know, the goalkeeper suffered a concussion, and that caused a long delay. And that made perfect sense. But then there was another, was it 14 more minutes of added time?
Lowe: There was 14 minutes on the first half, and then there was ten minutes on the second. So, there was a total of 24 minutes extra played in the England game. That was… It's ridiculous.
Hunt: And the second half of Netherlands-Senegal had, I believe eight minutes. And USA-Wales ended with, I think in the end, 11 minutes. And that's nuts and over-the-top. And if they're trying to, you know, stop time wasting in the grand scheme of things, so be it. But let's not overdo it. The other fetish is "Fox" trying to bring in American viewers with a fetish for American-style stats that I've never seen before. Did you see these? They were quick to point out amount of turnovers, football term, amount of receptions between the defensive lines and midfield line, football term. And maybe this is genius, but it seems a bit corny to me. And finally, these commercials, particularly this Peyton Manning, David Beckham commercial about, like, "It's soccer." "It's football." I'm really tired of the soccer versus football conversation, people. OK? As great Canadian comedian Glenn Wool once said, and I paraphrase, "It's OK for a thing to have two names, and it's OK for a word to have two meanings." What do we have in America as our currency? The dollar, also known as the buck. But a buck, it also means a deer. And yet, we seem to be able to figure out which one is which. So, let's not worry about it. And by the way, soccer's an English word. For English people who are mad about the word soccer, you invented it in the first place. And I'm tired of having this conversation.
Lowe: No, we're not mad. But more importantly than football, soccer, it's crisps, not chips. That is definitely very important that we need to get out there from the Peyton Manning, David Beckham commercial.
Hunt: Hmm. Counterpoint, it's fries, not chips.
Lowe: [LAUGHS] And we could go on. But you're right. You're right. But I suppose what that's doing, isn't it… I suppose those commercials are built for people not like us who are new and trying to be a part of something. Can I be that annoying devil's advocate?
[HUNT GROANS]
No, I don't think I can. I think I've just even annoyed myself by saying that.
Hunt: I don't know. I think, can we just assume that everyone is here at the height of their intelligence? And we can all just speak to each other, and everyone's gonna catch up because it's not that hard.
Lowe: It's not that hard, guys. Pick it up. [LAUGHS]
Hunt: All right. So, we are gonna have this USA-England preview on Wednesday. There'll be games between those days. One game I'm looking forward to tomorrow is Mexico-Poland. I'd like to see if Mexico is going to step up in their way. And if Lewandowski is gonna have one last run here. All these good Poland teams that Lewandowski has been on the last decade, they've only made it out of the group stage once. Will this be the time that that improves?
Lowe: And I'm looking forward to seeing Messi against Saudi Arabia. Mismatch of the century.
Hunt: Yeah, how many goals is Messi gonna score against Saudi Arabia? I mean, they once gave up eight against Germany in 2002. That was a tough, tough game to watch. Most goals scored in a World Cup game, by the way, is five by Oleg Salenko of Russia versus Cameroon in 1994. Boom!
Lowe: Could happen tomorrow, yeah.
Hunt: Hmm… Anything else there, Rebecca?
Lowe: Just loving the World Cup, not gonna lie.
Hunt: Yeah, I bet you are.
Lowe: Just… [LAUGHS]
Hunt: I bet.
Lowe: Just loving it. Oh, feels good. I've got everything off my chest. You?
Hunt: [GROANS] We love you, Walker Zimmerman. Don't be down, buddy. Don't be down.
Lowe: No. Don't be down, America. It's gonna be OK. You guys are OK. It's all right.
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Hunt: OK, folks. If you have loved this show or even if it's just sparked a gentle curiosity, be sure to check out "Go! Go! USA!" on the "Men in Blazers" podcast feed where Roger Bennett and myself discuss the rich history of men's soccer in America. What's that? You didn't think there was one? You're wrong!
Lowe: And if you're loving this show, subscribe on Apple Podcasts and be sure, please, to rate and review us. It really helps other people find the show.
Hunt: And for 'round the clock World Cup news plus live scores and standings, follow along on the Apple News app in My Sports where available.
Lowe: We are gonna be back with more World Cup coverage. Brendan's gonna be happier. I'm gonna make sure of that right here in your podcast feed Wednesday. As we look ahead, Brendan, we've gotta look ahead. We're not gonna go looking back anymore. Looking ahead on Wednesday for a preview of the U.S. match against England just before Thanksgiving. It'll come out on Wednesday.
Hunt: Only forward.
[LOWE LAUGHS]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]