Brendan Hunt: [LAUGHS] Ladies and gentlemen, Rebecca is covering her eyes right now not even with her hands, with her fingers. She is pressing her middle and index fingers into her eyes as if she is suffering from the flu. And maybe she is, the Southgate flu.
[LOWE LAUGHS]
[MUSIC FADES IN]
[WHISTLE BLOWS]
From Apple News and Meadowlark Media, I'm Brendan Hunt.
Rebecca Lowe: And I'm Rebecca Lowe. And this is "After the Whistle."
Hunt: Today's episode has us feeling a bit of joy and pain as we'll recap today's U.S.-England match that ended in a nil-nil draw and walk through what that means for the teams’ quest to advance out of the group stages.
Lowe: We're gonna play another lovely round of Optimist, Pessimist and Brendan will quickly get to sound off on the Dutch as well. Right. Should we hurry up and get this one over with?
Hunt: Reminder$%There will be adult language.
Lowe: Probably from me this week.
Hunt: [LAUGHS] Bring it.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Hey, Rebecca. How you feeling after that?
Lowe: [INHALES DEEPLY] Brendan. [LAUGHS]
Hunt: [LAUGHS] That was a long pause. [LAUGHS] That was what they call dead air. Ooh. I love it.
Lowe: I know. I was wondering whether we could delay this pod a little bit until I maybe…
Hunt: No. Can't do it. No.
Lowe: …got onto more of a level, even keel in my mind. I'm feeling right now, what, less than an hour after the final whistle, is kind of angry. I'm annoyed. I am frustrated more than anything. Slightly bewildered, disappointed, deflated, fairly let down, but also kind of like, what did I expect? Welcome to the last 42 years of my life. So, I think without going into any detail, if you just want the mood right now, that's the mood. And what about you, Brendan? How's your mood?
Hunt: My mood is, I guess, on the list of possible moods I might have foreseen for after this game. My mood is very low on the list of expectations, if it was even on the list at all, which is the frustration of feeling like we should have fucking won the game. Like, and I'm looking at the stats.
Lowe: I don't disagree.
Hunt: And the stats do not indicate, you know, dominance, particularly, you know, looking at possession and things like that. But it felt like we were handling that game from about the 25th minute onward. And about the 25th minute, we started having a few chances in a row. There was a run of them. We'll get to them. But I remember thinking even at that point right around the 40th minute, like, OK, this is a fairly extended period of, if not dominance, at least, sort of asserting a degree of authority onto this match. But nothing's coming from it. And that can't hold up, or we're gonna be bummed. It's weird though to be like, oh, dammit. We played so well but didn't win. And that's a precarious waste.
Lowe: But can I just pick you up on something? 'Cause that's really interesting about your mood because I said to you, didn't I? After the first game against Wales, I said to you you're gonna be OK. You were better against Wales than you thought you were. I thought you played very well. Not the whole game through, but very well. And then you're absolutely right, Brendan. You were the better team. And it's not very easy for me to say that. I'm not gonna lie. OK? But there's no point in me sitting here and trying to get out of this. USA were the better team. Apparently, Christian Pulisic was man of the match. My man of the match one gazillion percent was not Pulisic even though I thought he did well, by the way. And he's doing better. And I'm pleased for him because, you know, I think that his time at Chelsea has been so disappointing on lots of different levels for different reasons, but he's a really, really talented player, and you as a country and you as a team need him. And he played really well. But the man of the match was Tyler Adams.
Hunt: Hundred percent.
Lowe: There was that one tackle on Saka, and then he gave that face. The camera got him. Do you remember? Like, yeah, I did! And it was absolute genius. If you're a USA fan, you're like, well played, son. He was man of the match. He is an excellent, excellent footballer. Tim Ream, by the way. Round of applause for Tim Ream. Anyway, I just wanted to get that USA credit out the way early. Better team, you should've won. We were outplayed. You had the spirit. You were braver. Whether or not Gregg Berhalter has out-tacticed Southgate… Maybe he did because, quite frankly, I think at the moment, most people could out-tactic Southgate, but we'll get onto that. Can I stop now on the USA love? 'Cause I got a lot of things. I made notes. You can't see them, listeners, but I made notes about England, so just… You wanna talk USA for a bit?
Hunt: [LAUGHS] I, too, have notes. I have notes. Well, OK. First of all, let's set the scene a little bit. Where were you watching? Where were Christine and Jared? By the way, before we get to Christine and Jared… OK. My good friend Joe Kelly, co-creator of "Ted Lasso," I invited him to come watch the game. I was only having a few people over, not like a party or anything. And he texted me yesterday, oh gosh, my wife's lawyer friend from Georgia is coming with her previously unknown cousin. Like, ooh, that's real rough. I'm so sorry. But it was like a half, like, you know, should I invite them over? Is he still inviting us over? And I told him I don't think I can roll USA dice on these people. And he said I respect this, and I agree. He texted me today about 10 minutes in the game. They showed up in the ninth minute with Bud and Miller Light. Thumbs down.
Lowe: Oh, God. I mean, do they not listen to the pod?
Hunt: They don't. They don't. They don't.
Hunt: They are all too blissfully unaware. So, how'd it go today? Where were you?
Lowe: That's disappointing.
Lowe: OK. So, obviously, 11 a.m. kick-off here in California. So, it's a nice, calm morning. I actually baked to try and get rid of my nerves. So, I did some baking this morning. Life was calm. Life was great. We have lots of lovely friends who love football who are American. When we used to live on the East Coast, there was a lot of expats over there when we used to live in Connecticut. So, there used to be a lot more British people around, English people around, to watch games with. Here, I've got like, a few English, but they're like, scattered here and there. So, all of our friends are American, and I love them to pieces. They're probably gonna listen to this. Just don't wanna watch a game with them. Just don't wanna watch a game against USA with them. Just don't wanna do it. So…
Hunt: Don't wanna watch any game? Or this game?
Lowe: No, no, just this game. We've watched lots of games with them. Just don't wanna watch this game with actually anybody at all. So, the four of us, me, my husband, my little boy and the dog all just sat in silence, basically, until about 20 minutes in. And then I wouldn't say my husband was particularly quiet for the following 70 minutes. Fairly, fairly irate. Christine and Jared didn't stop by, bless their hearts. Very concerned that Christine and Jared might have actually listened to the podcast episode one. And now thinking that may never see Christine and Jared ever again, especially as Jared, very useful when the internet goes down. What am I gonna do about Jared? OK, back to…
Hunt: You protected them for over a year. It's time they learn these hard truths.
Lowe: [LAUGHS] I know. Back to the main narrative. So, we're in the living room, and it was, like I say, a little bit calm for about 20 minutes, and then it was no longer calm. And it was a tough watch. So, you? Did you just watch it with fam?
Hunt: Yeah, with my partner and with our newly 22-month-old. We were able to plunk him down nearby in front of an iPad that was showing "Ben and Holly's Little Kingdom." And that seemed to work out fairly well. My partner was like, oh, let's invite our English friends. And I said no. No, we're not going to do that.
Lowe: [GASPS] Yeah, to be fair, that's… I understand that. No, but I understand. I love her suggestion. But, you know, the answer is definitely no.
Hunt: Yeah, no. My love for them is undiminished, but it would not be appropriate.
Lowe: No, we don't need to mix at this stage.
Hunt: [LAUGHS] We don't need the mix at this stage. Come on.
Lowe: Mix a little later. OK. So, do you… I mean, I don't even know. I don't even know where to start, Brendan. I got a lot of stuff to say.
Hunt: Should we just separate it into first half, second half? How about that, Rebecca? Can we start there?
Lowe: Yeah. I mean, I would say the first half, second half is gonna be the same for me. So, why don't you give me…? [LAUGHS] I mean…
Hunt: [LAUGHS] Yeah. This might be a handy organizer of thoughts.
Lowe: Yeah. OK. That's fair. All right. Go for it.
Hunt: All right. It felt for the first like, 20, 25 minutes like the U.S. was in trouble.
Lowe: Really? Did you think that? I did not think that at all. I did not. Wow, that's so interesting.
Hunt: Well, they may be a distant memory, but like, for like…
Lowe: Really? Wow.
Hunt: Yeah. Twenty, 25 minutes, it was like… We're kind of like, barely making tackles and barely making saves. And then from about the 25th minute onward, suddenly we had these three straight chances. You know, Wes had a great chance that he uncharacteristically caromed over the bar.
Lowe: Oh, yeah
Hunt: Yunus had a great shot that got blocked and was still very… He shot it so hard. It still took a very dangerous bounce, but it happened to bounce directly at Pickford's arms. And then Pulisic clanged one off the woodwork. And then it was like, oh, OK. All right. Something is starting to happen here. Do you remember this period?
Lowe: I remember that period. It started to dawn on me that I was watching same, old England. It started to dawn on me that this was going to be another deflating experience because… And the reason being is… Let me preface this by saying I love Gareth Southgate. He genuinely… I mean, Berhalter, really a Palace legend? Just passed through SE25.
Hunt: If I may really quickly, the phrase coming out of your mouth, "I love Gareth Southgate," does not usually result in expressions of love for Gareth Southgate. Go on.
Lowe: I mean, that is true. That's like when you say, "No disrespect, but." It's gonna be a "No disrespect, but." OK? So, Berhalter passed through SE25 in like, 2001, 2002. Like, fine, OK. Didn't really leave an imprint. Gareth Southgate came through the academy at Crystal Palace, played for Palace for years before he got a big move to Middlesbrough. I used to watch him week in, week out as a teenager. My dad always used to say, "If Southgate plays well, Palace play well." He was right. He was just such a leader of men. He was such a graceful player. I watched him miss a penalty for Crystal Palace back in the early '90s, which was the only penalty he ever took for Palace. And then, therefore, in 1996, in the semifinal of the Euros, when Gareth Southgate stepped up to take a penalty in the penalty shootout, I was about the only person there who knew he was gonna miss it, which he did. And he was pilloried for it like all England players are when they miss penalties. He did get an advert though from Pizza Express out of it. No, Pizza Hut. He got a Pizza Hut advert out of it. So, it wasn't all bad, but he was absolutely hung, drawn and quartered for missing that penalty. And I felt for him, and I loved him. And then Gareth Southgate pretty much sort of disappeared out of everyone's consciousness, finds his way back to the England job, which, by the way, in itself surprised. But anyway… So, can I just go back to the preface? I love Gareth Southgate. I love… [LAUGHS] No disrespect, but I love the way he talks to the media about the big issues of the day. Right?
Hunt: Mm-hmm. Here it comes. Oh sure. Intelligent, articulate.
Lowe: I love the way he handles himself. I love the way he handled himself.
Hunt: Sensitive, empathetic.
Lowe: [LAUGHS] What a great chap he is, right? But!
[HUNT LAUGHS]
Right? Might be the biggest "but" I've ever uttered. When we began the game today with a team that was unchanged from the game against Iran, which is… Fair enough, just about… You've won 6-2. Fair enough. We, from minute one, were lifeless. Lifeless from minute one. I'm not… I didn't see the first 20 minutes the way you saw the first 20 minutes. We did not pressurize that ball once. No press on any of your players. I mean, when your back line and keeper had the ball, literally, our players, including Harry Kane, who I love, walked around the football pitch. There was no aggression. There was no high tempo. There was no presses. What I said to you the other day on the podcast, how can England lose? England can lose, by the way this feels like a loss, by no tempo, no rhythm, no aggression, no high press. We didn't do any of that. He tactically, for me, just, oh God, so wide of the mark. And unfortunately, this is not a one-off. This is something that Southgate has shown us many a time against Italy in the final of the Euros in 2021. We go ahead in the early goal with Luke Shaw, and then we just sit off and don't go and try and get another goal. I mean, this is what may be the greatest group of players England have produced in a generation, if not more. He has at his fingertips a beautiful generation of England players. And we play like that? Can I just say one more thing? 'Cause actually that's a lie. I'm gonna say about 200 more things, but in this particular breath, one more thing. Southgate, post-game, said he was happy the way we built from the back. That is a direct quote. I saw the interview on "ITV," the broadcaster in England. He said, "I'm so happy the way we built from the back." Built what? I literally don't think you built one thing. I think your little man watching "Ben and Holly" was probably building more blocks in his play den that England built today. OK. I just need to… You gotta go now 'cause I've only got about a third of the way down my list. What do you think about that? Sorry, was I supposed to talk about the first half? Sorry. I don't know.
Hunt: [LAUGHS] Oof! I mean, ish. But this is gonna work out great 'cause I really was incredibly hyper-focused on the U.S. and not that much on England. But the end of the second half, there was a little flash point there that made me slightly worried. At one point, Shaw basically erased Dest, who'd been having a pretty good game up to that point. Got around him into the box. And then a snapshot from Mason Mount that was very dangerous but drew a great save from Turner. Matt Turner had an excellent game. Not quite a stand-on-your-head stuff of legend game, but he was excellent. And then, yeah.
Lowe: He looks like he plays every week. I mean, the bloke, you know, is behind Ramsdale at Arsenal, and yet he looks like he plays every week. I mean, well played. Well played.
Hunt: He's good. He's money. And the second half, it felt like it took a couple minutes to get going, but then by about five minutes in, it still felt like what was happening for most of the first half. It felt like the U.S. were imposing themselves, and England were playing reactively, which is just one thing I would not have expected this whole game.
Lowe: Oh, thank you! Brendan. Brendan, that word. You've absolutely nailed it. He is the most reactive manager. We are not proactive. We don't go, you know what? We're gonna go win this game. What we do is we'll just see if we can just not lose it and just walk around for a bit and let's react. At one point, when you hit the bar, at one point, I thought, in a really messed up way, I'd quite like USA to score a goal now because that is the only way Gareth Southgate is going to then be able to react. He can't react if nothing happens. God, that's a terrible admission.
Hunt: [LAUGHS] Ladies and gentlemen, Rebecca is covering her eyes right now not even with her hands, with her fingers. She is pressing her middle and index fingers into her eyes as if she is suffering from the flu. And maybe she is, the Southgate flu.
Lowe: [LAUGHS] And I love him. Did I mention that?
Hunt: Yeah, yeah. It's come up. It's come up a couple times. It's definitely been proven true. So, we get, you know, second half, then, fairly early on. First of all, a dangerous moment where Saka finally gets loose into the box and who should be there to save the day but Tyler Adams in a really great moment. And then pretty soon after that, like, people were seeming, on the U.S., were seeming borderline cocky. Like, Dest was doing tricks with the ball. Pulisic was like, waving at fans to give him, you know, a little more juice as he went in for a corner. Harry Maguire was rescuing you. Again, Harry Maguire, another pretty good game.
Lowe: I mean, you're, again, spot on. Can we just take a little second to talk about Harry Maguire?
Hunt: Always. Always, Rebecca.
Lowe: Because he was today, England's best player, which, I mean, we're talking low bar, but someone's got to be. He was. But this guy, for a second… If you don't know, Harry Maguire has been under an immense amount of pressure for 18 months because his form has dropped off for his club, Manchester United, of whom he is captain. But he rarely now plays because he's not been very good. I mean, that's basically the bottom line. And Southgate has come under so much pressure to not play him, but he continues to play him. And so, I'm not giving the credit to Southgate 'cause that's an easier decision. I'm giving the credit to Harry Maguire. He has not put a foot wrong, and considering mentally where he must have been over the last 18 months, I find that quite astoundingly, mentally incredible.
Hunt: It's admirable. It's full on admirable. You know, I…
Lowe: He has been virtually killed, Brendan, in England.
Hunt: I love a game of like, "what dumb thing did Harry Maguire just do" because it's a gift that keeps on giving. But today, he directly saved at least two goals. He was massive. So, then around this point, speaking of cool, old heads, about the 65th minute, Gareth finally makes a substitution. And you gotta be thinking… [LAUGHS] You gotta be thinking, [LAUGHS] you know, Rashford!
Lowe: I'll tell you what I thinking. I'll tell you what I was thinking.
Hunt: At this point, first and foremost… [LAUGHS] Go on.
Lowe: When the match director cut away, you saw it. We all saw it. Of the shot of Henderson being talked to by Southgate. My husband and I, we genuinely were like, no, what? So, what? No, no. What? He's put… No, no. Maybe he's just asking advice 'cause he's not gonna put… I mean, it's nil-nil. We need to get a goal. Obviously, he's not gonna put Jordan Henderson on. Don't get me wrong. Jordan Henderson, really good player, but not at nil-nil when he's a little bit past his prime and we have Grealish. Oh, and there's also another player on the… Oh, let me… What's his name? Oh yeah, Phil Foden. Shall we get to Phil Foden now or later?
Lowe: Let's get to him now, shall we? [LAUGHS]
Hunt: Later. Later. Later. 'Cause here's the thing. I don't actually think Henderson was a terrible substitution at that moment.
Lowe: Why?
Hunt: I think it was damning that the situation required Jordan Henderson because England were running around like they didn't know it was the fucking World Cup. They were running around like this was a friendly or something. And Jordan Henderson, I would hope, would come on with a bit of like, captain-ly, you know… Hey guys, remember Dunkirk? That sort of thing. You know, Henry V. Whatever it is that you people talk about that makes your sinews stiffen. Like, he's… It was not crazy to bring him in.
Lowe: Well, I just disagree. I mean, I don't think it was crazy, but I think it was a decision that virtually nobody else would've made, and it was not a decision that paid off. And also, when he did come in, he came on at the same time as Grealish, which again, really interesting. I love Jack Grealish, but Foden, for me, is probably England's best overall, most talented player. Probably overall, if you look at the whole of the England squad, Phil Foden's the most talented footballer.
Hunt: The lack of Phil Foden, for me, is a huge bullet dodged for the U.S.
Lowe: Right. Correct. Absolutely.
Hunt: Like, I don't know who we would've even put on him. Like, you know, he would dance circles around us.
Lowe: He's unplayable sometimes. And Pep Guardiola, the best manager in the world, said that Phil Foden is the most talented player he's ever seen besides Messi, and he cannot get in the England team despite playing virtually every game for City. Do me a favor. Anyway, so on comes Henderson and Grealish, off goes Bellingham, our best player in the first game. 'Kay. And off comes Sterling.
Hunt: Didn't have a great game today.
Lowe: No, he didn't. But he also didn't have a terrible game. But you're right. He didn't have a great game. So, on comes Henderson, on comes Grealish. But what then happened, Brendan… Again, you were probably so hyper-focused on USA, but let me tell you that [LAUGHS] we couldn't work out what formation he was playing. We literally spent the next 15 minutes looking at the screen going, is it a 4-4-2? Is it a 4-1-4-1? Has he gone 4-5-1? What is he doing? Henderson popped up on the right in the number 10 role on the left, really deep. Kane went out right, then Kane was central. Then we had Rashford come on. He went to the right and then central, and then Mount kept floating forward. Then Grealish was on the left, but then Grealish was midfield, but then Grealish was up front. So, maybe what he said was we'll go 4-1-4-1. Rice, you sit in front of the back four, and then the next four, just do what you want. Just get out there and frigging do what you want. And Kane, you can just go up front, but you'll also come back, and when you come back, you lot can go ahead. I mean, there seemed to be no plan. Shock. And those four of Mount… At one point, it was Mount, Henderson, Grealish and maybe Rashford, was it, at one point? Just floated everywhere. Guess what? Didn't work. Subs, not Gareth Southgate… I love him by the way. But subs, not Gareth Southgate's strong point, dare I suggest it.
Hunt: Like it's a very… It's a love fest right now going on, all your love for Gareth Southgate. So, I think the last 20 minutes of the game or so kind of basically fizzled, you know, not much got going. I don't think any of the subs were particularly instrumental in anything. I would say Shaq Moore even had a bad game, but no one else did anything in particular that was great. And so, the game comes to an end, and yeah, it's just a very curious feeling to feel… Like, 'cause I would've thought ahead of time, like, oh wow, we get a draw? I'm hooting and hollering. I'm running through the street. But this draw I look at feeling like we should have fucking won the game.
Lowe: Yeah. So, because you had taken a draw before the game because you hadn't seen the game and how well you guys played, and having seen that you outplayed England, of course you're gonna be disappointed and rightly so. I mean, you're going through. There's no doubt in my mind that you are going through to the knockout stages. You are without a doubt going through. Well, if you can't beat Iran then you should go home anyway. So, you know, you gotta beat…
Hunt: Well, yeah. Well, we are super capable of shitting the bed.
Lowe: You will beat Iran. You will beat Iran. Just answer me this, though. So, we're going back to something we've talked and touched on a number of times is the Gio Reyna situation and the Aaronson situation, actually. I know neither of them really did a lot coming on, but it's such a lot to ask to change a game at the World Cup with 10 minutes to go or whatever he gave Gio Reyna. Do you think that he will unleash them, certainly Reyna, against Iran?
Hunt: Yes. I do.
Lowe: OK.
Hunt: Definitely Reyna. I think Aaronson as well. But like, the legs are fresh, and, you know, I haven't looked at who all exactly Iran was playing today, but I know, you know, Taremi ended up playing another 110 minutes or however that game ended up. So, you know, I'm sure that's indicative of the amount of fatigue Iran must be carrying right now. So, I think fresh legs will be a big advantage to the degree that we can put them in. And Reyna's legs are also fresh. Oh, so fresh. So, yes. And yeah, I… You know, I'm left in the sort of unfamiliar feeling of feeling pretty confident going into that game.
Lowe: Yeah, so you should.
Hunt: You know, we should've beat Wales, but for one bad error, and maybe that one bad error was, you know, opening night nerves. Today was, if nothing else, a very composed performance. So, if we can keep that going against Iran, who got very fortunate to get three points today, then we should be all right. But, you know, that's why they play the games, et cetera.
Lowe: Yeah. Can also we talk about Harry Kane just for a second? You know, we said on the last podcast, and I was worried about his ankle. He just… He hasn't scored a goal yet, and despite being the Golden Boot winner in 2018, he's only ever scored one goal in a knockout stage. It doesn't look like he's gonna score a goal. I know I said in the last podcast if there was an ounce of a problem physically, I wouldn't have played him. And I think I stand by that, Brendan. I'm not sure that we wouldn't have done better, having put him on the bench, played a Wilson or a Rashford or both, or certainly maybe Rashford from the start, and then give him a rest to play him. Because we'd already got the three points in the bag against Iran and then play him against Wales. I just don't think today he looked… He walked a lot, and he just… I'm worried about him. He's on my list of worries.
Hunt: I know that he did not have a shot on target today because I, you know, declared to all of Twitter for the second game running anytime Matt Turner saved a shot against a Spurs player, do a shot. And there were no shots taken luckily for this podcast. So, yeah, he certainly was not needed today at the very least. And to, you know, turn Callum Wilson loose in there would've been interesting.
Lowe: Yeah.
Hunt: Another thing I would not have expected to be saying at the end of match day two for this group is England aren't through yet. Like, there are not unreasonable scenarios where England do not advance after winning 6-2 on the first day.
Lowe: Should we go through them? What are those scenarios? 'Cause this is where the math, as you guys would say, or the maths, as we would say, becomes… Just sometimes gives me a little bit of a headache. So, do you want, Brendan, to just do the explanation of the [IMITATING AMERICAN ACCENT] math?
Hunt: Sure. Well, it all comes down to Tuesday. Basically, if England get a win or draw against Wales, they are through. If Wales wins by 3 goals or more, it all gets crazy, especially if the Iran and the U.S. tie, which would put England, Wales and Iran all at 4 points.
Lowe: And the tiebreak goes to goal difference, followed by goals scored, then head-to-head, and then finally to my favorite one… Who's got the most yellow cards? Go home, basically.
Hunt: [CHUCKLES] Well, I mean, you know, it's the gentleman reward. However, for the U.S., it is very simple. Beat Iran, and you are through. Anything less, and they'll be on a flight home, and that is a long, sad flight.
Lowe: Yeah, well, if you can't beat Iran, you should go home! Harsh?
Hunt: Oh, aren't you in a bad mood today.
Lowe: [LAUGHS] I know. You're right. Fair.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Hunt: All right, Rebecca. Well, after that performance, after two games, now heading into one surprisingly vital game against Wales, give me please your Optimist, Pessimist take on England getting out of the group stage. Optimist, go.
Lowe: [LAUGHS] It's good. That's getting weirder as this series goes on. All right, optimist. That England have got their one bad game out the way, and that in a moment alone in his hotel room in Qatar, looking out the window, he thinks… Gareth Southgate, I'm talking about, who I love by the way… He thinks you know what? You know who I should play? [LAUGHS] You know who I should play? I'm gonna play Phil Foden against Wales. That's who I'm gonna play. And he decides that Foden starts, Mount doesn't because he hasn't really done anything either. And we go into the Wales game as we went into the Iran game with some form of aggression, with some form of press and with some form of a tempo. And we go away 3-nil winners, and we go through with our confidence restored. And nobody, except for you, no doubt, talks about this day ever again. All right. That's optimist. My pessimistic…
Hunt: Oh, you did the voice! You did the voice! That's so exciting!
Lowe: I did it. And also… It is, especially as I sound like I'm trying to be like a spooky character on a frigging ride at Thorpe Park. That's a place in England.
Hunt: Deep Reference.
Lowe: [LAUGHS] So deep. Pessimist, right? It's basically, if you just wanna rewind the tape and listen to the last half an hour, just play that again. The pessimist is that we play an unchanged team against Wales, and we do exactly what we did today, didn't go to win the game, had a terrible overall approach of zero energy. Wales come out the blocks flying because they hate us. Gareth Bale ends his international career on a high with a hat trick. We have an absolute nightmare, complete disaster. Basically a rerun of today, but with goals against 'cause the only hero from today was Harry Maguire. He then makes a massive rick. Wales win the game. England go home. I think I'm done. Can I go now? [LAUGHS]
Hunt: Point of order. What's a "rick" in this scenario?
Lowe: A rick is a mistake. So, if you've got like a rick in you, or if you hear someone say he's got a massive rick in him, that means he's got a huge error at some point in his life. Stroke game.
Hunt: I see. In America, Rick is a very masculine name.
Lowe: Oh no. So, a rick is… I don't know where the history of the word rick comes from, but it's not a rick as a name of a man Rick. It's like you get a rick in your neck. It's that kind of… It's like a rick, like a mistake. I can't… I don't. I have no idea. Just that's how we… Sometimes we say that, you know, Harry Maguire's from Ricksville, Tennessee. That's how many ricks he's got in him.
Hunt: We're so similar and yet so different. Our cultures…
Lowe: [LAUGHS] All right. Your turn. Optimist, Pessimist, USA going through to the next round.
Hunt: Nah, I don't answer unless you do the voice.
Lowe: [LAUGHS] I just did one.
Hunt: You did one, but you didn't do the whole thing, so, you know…
Lowe: [DRAMATICALLY SPEAKING Optimist, Pessimist. [LAUGHS] [SPEAKING NORMALLY] By the way, somebody sent me a message on Instagram saying that they were listening to us in the supermarket. And when our Optimist, Pessimist voices comes on, they were just out loud laughing and getting lots of looks. I think Optimist, Pessimist could end up being a hashtag of this World Cup. OK. Go for it.
Hunt: Oh, I love it. And perhaps they were at the Piggly Wiggly in Ricksville, Tennessee. Optimist, this inexperienced team is now experienced, and they will come into the Iran game with 100% the right attitude. They'll respect their opponent. They'll respect the occasion, but they will not play the occasion. They'll play the match, and they'll go about their business and play like a favorite, and they will outdo an over-matched, overtired foe, who, let us honor and mention, are dealing with so much other stuff that they had to deal with off the pitch, anyway, which our guys had to not worry about for 90 minutes, and then give them big hugs afterwards. Pessimist, Gregg overthinks it and, you know, he still doesn't play Aaronson and Reyna, and we are worn down by gamesmanship and a more veteran team than our youngsters might be ready for. And Iran pulls out all the tricks in the book, drives our guys crazy, and we get a red card or some foolish yellows, make some dumb fouls, and the game ends nil-nil. And unlike today's nil-nil, it does not feel like a victory. It feels like another generation has gone down the toilet.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Lowe: So, with that said, you also get a chance to be both optimist and pessimist for your other team in one 60 second moment, which is what we like to call on this podcast "Dutch in 60."
Hunt: Does it have to be 60? Can we just do 30?
Lowe: 30 seconds? Are you kind of getting bored with your second team?
Hunt: No, I just… Today wasn't as fun as the other two days have been.
Lowe: OK. You time yourself with a big old alarm that goes off after 30 seconds. So, for those who don't know, very quickly, Brendan does have a slight second team also who are doing OK at the World Cup, and that is the Netherlands. We like to call Holland 'cause we're from the '90s, and he's now gonna give us a "Dutch in 30."
Hunt: And go.
[TIMER TICKING]
OK. So, very simply, if the Netherlands had won today, they would be now advanced in the group, and they would be totally out of it. Now, as it happens, they got a draw against Ecuador who are turning out to be better than anyone else expected. But Senegal won the other game, and so, we are in a slightly precarious position, but luckily, we are gonna be playing Qatar in the third game. Qatar have zero points, only one goal, have already been eliminated and have nothing to play for but pride. But pride can mean a lot, especially when you are the home team. Now, but really, all I care about is them not finishing the same place as the United States, so they don't play each other in the next round. OK. That's all. Dutch in 30. They were fun. I love them. Alarm!
[TIMER DINGS]
Lowe: [LAUGHS] Can I add Dutch in 10? Did you see the Louis van Gaal hug with the reporter? Did you see it?
Hunt: Yes. Wasn't that delightful?
Lowe: [SIGHS] That was just lovely. I mean, who just… Right, you know, Louis van Gaal, as we've talked about before on this podcast, what an epic human he is.
Hunt: He's starting to see more tool than iron, quite frankly. All right, Rebecca. Well, I could go on for hours talking about this wonderful day, but you seem to be kind of a bummer, so I'm gonna let you go. Before we go, a few final thoughts to take people into the Thanksgiving weekend.
Lowe: Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna steer clear of any final England thoughts 'cause I think everyone's had enough of my England thoughts, to be quite honest.
Hunt: Never.
Lowe: My final thought is somebody who, of course, we talk about forever and ever and always have done and always probably will do, and that's Ronaldo because scoring for Portugal made him the first player, first male player, we should say, to score in five World Cups. Marta did it for Brazil at the Women's World Cup. But Cristiano Ronaldo does it. I mean, that is… Whether you hate him, right? To go to a World Cup as a player and never get on the field is an amazing achievement, right? But to go to five of them, to play in five of them and to score in five of them over a span of 20 years… Because he's getting such bad PR right now because of the interview and because he's left Manchester United, we are unfortunately, I think, at risk of forgetting the joy that he also provides us. And I don't want to forget that, Brendan. So, let's just not forget that and revel… I don't think you like him much, do you?
Hunt: I think the phrase "joy he provides us" is a little presumptuous.
Lowe: What, you mean 700-and-something goals that he has provided to the world of football in his 20-something career? You don't think that's joyous?
Hunt: The word "us" suggests that we all love it.
Lowe: But five World Cups, Brendan. Goals at five World Cups. That's otherworldly.
Hunt: Yeah, but when Marta scored in her fifth World Cup, did she get it by winning a dodgy penalty? Just wanna know if that was… [LAUGHS]
Lowe: [CHUCKLES] OK. All right. I see you. I see you, Brendan. I see your feelings. I see it all.
Lowe: So, we’ll just continue… [LAUGHS] We'll continue this, but that was what I would like to finish on, which I just think is round of applause for a man. Yes, he gets a lot of applause, but there's a reason for that. And what about you? Final four?
Hunt: Thank you for seeing my feelings. I feel seen.
Hunt: Under the umbrella of, you know, sort of the protests we've been tracking, there was a new one today. A woman went to the Iran-Wales game and held up a jersey with the name Mahsa Amini. Of course, Mahsa Amini is the name of the woman who was killed in September, which triggered all the protests across Iran that have been happening ever since. Her shirt was, of course, confiscated. But she was certainly duly photographed, and that picture is now all over the world. So, well done to her.
Lowe: Apparently, FIFA are trying to tell Qatar to stop the confiscating. Don't think the message is getting through 'cause as well as your story there, a friend of mine who works for the "BBC" as a television reporter tried to get into the Wales game, I think it was today, with her cameraman, who was wearing an Apple watch, I think it was, and the strap was rainbow colored because his child had bought it for him for whatever reason. And he was told to…
Hunt: Because kids like rainbows!
Lowe: [LAUGHS] I know. He was told take it off. He was told take off his watch. Basically, you couldn't write this, could you? If you didn't know that was true, you'd never say that would never happen. So, yeah, the confiscating… Let's stop confiscating everything that… FIFA keep telling the FAs that they're telling the Qataris and the people allowing people in the stadiums. It's not getting through, guys! They're not getting the memo.
Hunt: [SIGHS] A couple other bits and bobs of a lower import. Neymar, who had lumps taken out of him by Serbia is now gonna miss the rest of the group stage, and the thing is, Brazil will not miss him at all. They will be just fine. But still, we'll see if he comes back 'cause, you know, he is a big part of their story. And someone's handing out Jude Bellinghams, Rebecca.
Lowe: Yeah, well, indeed. In our colloquialism, we call an excellent player in England a "Rolls-Royce." So, there are just… And it's a certain type of player, and it's really difficult for me how to describe why we would call a certain player Rolls-Royce. The only best way to do it is to tell you the name of players that we would call a Rolls-Royce. Declan Rice is a Rolls-Royce. Jude Bellingham is also a Rolls Royce, and Saudi Arabia appear to be handing out a bunch of Bellinghams?
Hunt: Yeah. All the players on the team who, you know, of course, so memorably upset Argentina 2-1 the other day? They're all getting Rolls-Royces, I guess. Good for them.
Lowe: I love that. I love that. Do I love that actually? Yeah, I think I'm OK with that.
Hunt: It's a nice touch. If it's a nice touch… If Rolls-Royces are your thing, you might as well hand 'em out when someone has done something that makes everybody happy.
Lowe: Yeah, I hope they've given that bloke his door back. You know the one that threw it out the window when they were celebrating? They need to hand out doors and Rolls-Royces in Saudi Arabia. What else? Anything else to finish with?
Hunt: For you, sir? A golden door. A golden door with horrible mileage, but a lovely, lovely hood ornament.
Lowe: [LAUGHS] Chassis. [LAUGHS]
Hunt: Rebecca, I enjoyed today so much. I'm sorry you didn't, but I'm not particularly sorry. Sorry, not sorry. Except not sorry at all. So, not sorry and not sorry. Folks, we'll be coming back to you on Monday to talk about…
Lowe: We may. We may. I dunno. I might need some time off.
Hunt: [LAUGHS] Rebecca may have retired by then. If she is not, then we will see you on Monday to wrap up the full second match day of the group stages and head into the precarious third and final match day that will be before us.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Lowe: Now, if you are loving the show, subscribe to us please on Apple Podcasts, and you can also rate us and review us. We've had a lovely lot of reviews by the way, Brendan.
Lowe: So nice. And those reviews… Yeah. And those reviews and the ratings also help everybody else who has not found the show, find the show.
Hunt: Yes. Thank you, everybody.
Hunt: And for 'round the clock World Cup news plus live scores and standings, follow along on the Apple News app in My Sports where available.
Lowe: We're gonna be back with our next podcast, more World Cup coverage right here in your feed where you get your pods on Monday as the final day of the second round of games in the group stage… Is that how you say it? I think it is. Comes to an end.
Hunt: In your feed!
Lowe: [LAUGHS] Oh my God. All right. Can I go now?
[MUSIC FADES OUT]