Steve Kerr: Yup. That was me.
[HUNT LAUGHS]
That was me. I had a message from my brother. He called me and was dying laughing. He said I could hear you right through the TV. He said I hope Mom didn't hear it. [LAUGHS]
Brendan Hunt: OK, good. I needed that confirmed.
Kerr: To be fair, he was pretty fucking amazing.
[LAUGHTER]
[MUSIC FADES IN]
[WHISTLE BLOWS]
Hunt: From Apple News and Meadowlark Media, I'm Brendan Hunt.
Rebecca Lowe: And I'm Rebecca Lowe. And this is "After the Whistle."
Hunt: Yeah, it is. Reminder, there will be adult language.
Lowe: From you.
Hunt: Eh. Today, we cover the exciting group matches as the battle for the round of 16 continues.
Lowe: Germany, Croatia, Spain, Japan, Morocco. Who knew? Nobody! We'll also look forward to some upcoming games to keep your eyes on.
Hunt: And finally, my humble Chicago heart jumps for joy as special guest Steve Kerr joins the show.
Lowe: You do not wanna miss this one. Let's get to it, shall we?
Hunt: Yes, please.
[LOWE GIGGLES]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Rebecca, here we are. First of all, hello.
Lowe: Hello. How amazing is the World Cup?
Hunt: It is like one third of a very favorite American breakfast cereal mascot trio. Crackling! It is absolutely crackling. These last two days have just been phenomenal. We're coming off the completion of Group E. Today, wherein Germany played Costa Rica and Spain played Japan, and all four teams had a chance of advancing to the round of 16.
Lowe: I did watch the Spain-Japan game. For me, the big headline just coming out of that game, Japan winning by two goals to one, coming from behind again. They've now beaten Germany, coming from behind, Spain, coming from behind. Now, the 2-1 goal, Brendan, have you seen the footage? The cross was out. Surely, the cross was out. I have been sent multiple images. How many of those been Photoshopped? I don't know. There is one image, of course, that shows it way out. But that is from behind the ball.
Lowe: So, you do have to kind of like, get your brain shifted. But then I've seen one, goodness only knows from where this has been taken, a drone, some bloke just hanging out above the stadium, from above, which looks like the slitherest slither of all slithers has kept it in. Has it though? I think if I was Germany, because they'd be knocked out because of that winning goal from Japan, I would be raging. But at the same time, Japan, I think, deserved it. They were a different team second half, played really, really well. I'm delighted for them. I think I just said on Instagram, "Good things happen to good people." People who clean up after themselves in the locker room deserve to go through.
Hunt: Exactly.
Hunt: Also, I like when good nicknames win. And Samurai Blue? Absolutely one of the best team names.
Lowe: Yeah. It's a goodie.
Hunt: Unofficial, though it may be, in all of international football.
Hunt: I mean, coming into this day, you would've thought Germany would find a way, and Spain would just summarily dispose of Japan, who, you know, just a speed bump on their way to the knockout rounds and on the way to winning the group. And then, 10 minutes in, almost simultaneously, Spain scores, and Germany scores. And sure enough, there you go. It's looking like here comes destiny. You can't stop the big boys when they get going.
Lowe: Yeah, here comes normality. Yeah.
Hunt: And it stayed that way till halftime. And then… [LAUGHS]
Lowe: [CHUCKLES] And then? [LAUGHS]
Hunt: And then the football gods reigned thunder!
Lowe: I wonder whether the tide is turning, Brendan. You know, African teams, Asian teams, doing much better at this World Cup now. I mean, Japan winning the group. Nobody had Japan winning the group. Some might have had Japan finishing in the top two, but not very many, by the way. And Germany going out, you know. Senegal going through. Morocco going through. I just wonder whether with the development of football around the world at the pace at which it is developing, I just wonder whether the tide is slightly turning, and European and South American countries just need to be on their guard a bit more. I mean, Germany have gone out in the group stage the last two, and this is a four-time World Cup winners. It's incredible what this World Cup is doing. I keep listening to previews ahead of day's action, and everybody, including me, including us, saying oh, well, Tunisia, you're not gonna beat France. So, that's just, you know… France have gone, you know, nine points, and then Tunisia beat France. So, it's either just an unpredictable World Cup, or the tide is turning within world football.
Hunt: I don't think you can say yet that the tide is fully turning just on teams getting to the round of 16. When they get a little further, then we're onto something. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no African team has made it past the quarterfinals. For example, which I think it was…
Lowe: Yeah, I think you're right.
Hunt: …Ghana 2010, Senegal in 2002, and Cameroon in 1990. One Asian team has made the semis. That was South Korea when they hosted in 2002. So, I think even those federations would claim you can't really say there's a tide turning until bigger results are saying. Like, no one remembers who won what group in the end of things. It's fun to watch right now, that's for sure, and it's thrilling.
Lowe: True. That is true, and the example being, like you say for that round of 16 game, Japan against Croatia. Now, that will be interesting 'cause Croatia are a notorious European strong side. They are. So, Japan beat Croatia, going to quarterfinals, then you do have to start questioning a few things where the status quo of world football is concerned. So, that's gonna be a fascinating game. That's just one of, of course, eight, which are gonna be so good.
Hunt: And I don't believe Japan has ever made the quarters. I think they made the round of 16 when they co-hosted in 2002. But then they had to watch Korea garner all the laurels. But I mean, as you say, it's pretty great that we have, what, 12 or 16 teams in. There's two Asian teams. There's two African teams. There's one CONCACAF team. Like, I can't remember how often, you know, all the federations are represented, with all due respect to Oceania who don't really get a spot anyway. So, it's feeling like a proper "World" Cup. I mean, cut to the semis, and it's still gonna be, you know, Argentina, France, you know, et cetera. But…
Lowe: England. Sure. But what about Germany? Let's talk… Sorry. What about Germany? Because… Had to. Because you and I were just, you know, we were bonding, I think is fair to say, the other day over our mutual dislike of Germany and basically 'cause they're always bloody good. And they're out, again. Rubbish.
Hunt: Yeah. Look at their squad here again. Like, is it just a transitional time? 'Cause they have a couple of great young players in there. Musiala, who is everything but finished product. Like, he was fantastic today. The amount of times he dribbled into the box when there was no opening was very, very impressive. You know, Sané is only 26. Gnabry… Ooh, Gnabry's 27 already. Oh, that's a real shame. He's 27. Kimmich is 27.
Lowe: Havertz, what's he now?
Hunt: They should be in their prime. He's only 23, but Götze's 30 already. Müller's 33. Gundogan's 32.
Lowe: Yeah. So, there's actually a mixed bag there, isn't there, of ages. And the thing about Germany is, you know as well as I do, the way that their country operates with football, without football, is just with incredible organization and precision. And last time this happened, or 10 or so years ago when they were looking a bit rubbish, they did this massive reboot and won the World Cup in 2014. So, I'm now very fearful about the future. Let's enjoy the present, shall we, with Germany being knocked out because this normally means they're gonna get their blooming act together.
Hunt: Yeah, it really does. This is the calm before the [IMITATING GERMAN ACCENT] storm.
Lowe: Nice.
Hunt: See what I did there?
Lowe: It was good. What about Spain? I feel like after that first game when they hammered Costa Rica 7-nil, everyone was like, you know, they're gonna go through. It's gonna be so easy. They're gonna win the group. And they just got through by the skin of those Costa Rican goals teeth.
Hunt: I don't know what happened with Costa Rica, first of all, because… And the reason I bring it up in the Spain context is, you know, Spain started by beating Costa Rica 7-nothing. Costa Rica, they were gonna be, you know, a tomato can, as our friends at Rocky would say. But then they go and beat Japan, and today, they looked good. They had the lead at one point. They had a foot in the next round. So, like, who knows what was going on with them that first day. They just clearly were like, not prepared. Not saying they should have beaten Spain, but they probably were not showing an accurate representation of themselves in allowing seven. Either way, I think we all let Spain scoring a touchdown on Costa Rica get our hopes up a little bit about them. And you know, they're kind of a transitioning team as well. I mean, they still got the Busquets of the world, but they're also trying to get in the Pedris and the Gavis. I don't know what they are.
Lowe: But what's also amazing about this game, where Spain are concerned, is the first half of that Japan-Spain game, Brendan, Spain made 530 passes to Japan's 89. But who cares? They lost the game. I mean, it's just so interesting, isn't it? Because we all love the way they play. And I talked about it the other day. Who doesn't love the triangles? Who doesn't love the pass and move? Who doesn't love the press to win the ball back and then pass it and go in… And that's brilliant, 530 passes. I mean, most teams in the Premier League don't make that in a game. They made it in the first half, but they lost 2-1. And at the end of the day, if you say to me England will make a thousand passes in a game and they'll look incredible and it'll be a masterclass of football in the final and they'll lose, or they can just hit it and hope and win 1-nil, smash and grab, you know which one I'm taking. So, it's a really interesting debate, innit? Because you want to see beautiful football, and you wanna see beautiful football rewarded. And that's where I think Spain are. They're not quite getting that reward for their beautiful play.
Hunt: A hundred percent. Congrats, nonetheless, to Spain, even if it's couched in concern. Huge congrats to Japan, and auf Wiedersehen to Germany. Adiós, Costa Rica. These have been the languages of Group E. Earlier in the day, Group F settled their business.
Lowe: [GIGGLES] Oh! Sorry. I mean, noises just come out with this World Cup. You just can't help it. You mention something, and a noise comes out of me. Sorry.
Hunt: [CHUCKLES] I mean, who had Morocco to win the group?
Lowe: [LAUGHS] No, I know.
Hunt: Who?
Lowe: It's amazing.
Hunt: I mean, who had Morocco to get through in a group with Croatia and Belgium? But they didn't lose. They only gave up one goal. And today, they slammed the door, getting up early, 2-nothing. A great goal for Ziyech. I love when an empty net gets scored in. It's harder than it looks. Doesn't happen as much as you think it should. But Ziyech going back to his Ajax days. And then, Croatia who again appeared like they were gonna run away with it after their thumping of Canada. Again, we just can't read too much into beating up on CONCACAF sides because then, Croatia also don't win the group. In fact, they were kind of holding on by their fingernails against Belgium. And if poor Romelu Lukaku converts one of several chances on a platter…
Lowe: Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh. It looked a bit odd by the end, didn't it? Yeah, I mean it looked a bit like he was doing everything to not score. The one that hit the post, I'm like, mate, it's an open goal. I mean, you just talked about it. It's an open goal. But the amount of chances… It was weird! Some of those near the end, the one on the chest and… Oh, my God! He's been a problem for a while. He's a problem. But Belgium, you know, Roberto Martínez steps down. There's a big old statement thanking him for, you know, reaching the bronze medal for the World Cup in 2018. And then they thanked him for qualifying for the Euros in 2020. Just thanking him for qualifying 'cause they weren't very good in that tournament. But this squad, and I stand by this, I know you slightly disagree, Brendan, but I stand by the fact that this squad, which is now way over the hill… I mean, the fact that Alderweireld and Vertonghen are still the center half partnership for Belgium when Tottenham got rid of them years ago, rightly so… They're just nowhere near it. And that Hazard has played, what, 72 games in nearly four years at Real Madrid? And he's starting… He didn't today. But he's been starting. Those are big, big mistakes, I think, from Roberto Martínez. But third place for me, they should be getting to a final. They should've got to a final in one of these. If England get to a final, they should've got to a final. So, he steps down, and there's gonna be an inquest, and I think it's a waste. But I do see a possible Vincent Kompany manager in their future because he's doing rather well at Burnley. And I think that might be a nice little… Maybe a bit early in his career now, but maybe in the future. The Vincent Kompany, center half for Man City down the years, and Belgium, of course, turning into a bit of a decent manager. That would be good. But Roberto Martínez, I think as much as we all think he's the greatest guy, for me, [BLOWS OUT AIR] he really hasn't done it at all.
Hunt: The Vincent Kompany thing is interesting. You know, Man City legend, of course. I mean, he's a very smart guy, and he's probably smart enough to not take that job while the cupboard is bare, which it certainly appears to be right now as a bunch of people age out. But that would be very, very interesting. Well, nonetheless, Morocco, congratulations. Your reward? Spain.
Lowe: But you wouldn't bet against them!
Hunt: Gonna fight over Gibraltar! This is the Gibraltar derby.
[LOWE LAUGHS]
OK. All right. Yesterday, a bunch of games happened, and a bunch of teams went in and out. France lost to Tunisia, who go out in glory. Of course, France had made nine changes. Wasn't really France. Australia, bless your hearts. Australia beats Denmark. A lot of people's dark horse pick. [GROANS]
Lowe: Whose? Whose? [LAUGHS]
Hunt: And Australia gets to the round of 16.
Lowe: Just to jump in there, Australia scenes from 3 a.m. in the morning in Melbourne when the goal went in, magic. And looks great for the Women's World Cup next summer. There, in Australia, football is definitely growing. It's battling a bit like it is in the U.S., but it's growing. And France, apparently, "L'Équipe," you know, the leading sports newspaper in France, really came for Didier Deschamps. Even though he made the nine changes, they've really come for him after that. Whether it was over he shouldn't have made them, or they shouldn't have lost anyway. Either way, they're under big pressure. And it was poor from France's perspective. OK, carry on.
Hunt: Luckily for them, in the next round, they're only gonna play Poland, who have not exactly been a force. They've really gotten this far because of goalkeeper Wojciech Szczęsny, who's had an incredible amount of saves. Not enough to stop Argentina yesterday even though he saved a Lionel Messi penalty, which is quite a feather in the cap, frankly.
Lowe: A penalty they should never have been given. Sorry, carry on.
Hunt: Yeah, agreed. But I wanna talk about tiebreakers, and as the tournament goes on, a lot of people, you know, figure out like, discovering like, how the group stage works, and they change how the tiebreakers work from tournament to tournament. But this time around, it is the way that I think is correct, but it's not what Americans, I think, are used to. The first tiebreaker is not head-to-head. The first tiebreaker is goal difference for the group. Now, in America, we love our head-to-head tiebreakers. Like, if you beat that team, boom, you're ahead of them in some, you know, imaginary standings no matter what. But that doesn't work for a group stage. It might work for an 82-game season or a 17-game season, but not in a group stage because if head-to-head is the first tiebreaker, then we don't have what we had this year, which is that there were still 27 teams with something to play for in this final day. So, it's about the totality of how all these teams are doing across their three games, which is a different philosophical angle than we typically do in the States, but I think it is absolutely the right angle for a World Cup group stage. So, kudos to FIFA. They get some things right sometimes.
Lowe: Sometimes. I agree. I fully agree. That's probably partly 'cause it's much more in the British football culture. It's goal difference is the next thing in the Premier league. Goal difference is the next thing in all of football in England. So, yeah, has to go down to goal difference, and that's a good thing. You should be rewarded for scoring goals. That's the whole point of football.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Hunt: Ladies and gentlemen, we now welcome a guest who, though he wouldn't have known it, is very close to my heart. Three-time NBA champion as a player with the Chicago Bulls, two-time NBA champion as a player with the San Antonio Spurs, four-time NBA champion with the Golden State Warriors as head coach, and also, currently the head coach of USA Basketball. Please welcome to the pod, Steve Kerr. Ladies and gentlemen, Steve Kerr.
Kerr: [CHUCKLES] Hi, guys.
Hunt: We've moved from fake coach to real coach. I'm feeling really good about this.
[LOWE LAUGHS]
Kerr: There you go. Thanks for having me. I'm excited.
Hunt: Have you been watching the World Cup? And do you typically?
Kerr: I have been watching and can't wait for the USA-Netherlands match, and yeah, some real surprises. Germany getting knocked out today, and Japan and Morocco, didn't see that one coming. So, really exciting stuff.
Lowe: Nobody did. Nobody did.
Hunt: [LAUGHS] Do you watch World Cups typically? Like, in 2018 when we weren't even involved? Were you checking it out?
Kerr: Yeah, yeah. I watch it. I really started watching soccer, or football, which I probably… I should call it football on this podcast, right?
Lowe: Thank you. Please do. Please do. Thank you, Steve.
Kerr: But I started watching maybe five years ago right after the '18 World Cup. I just really like Mo Salah, and I spent three years of my childhood living in Egypt. And so, I automatically, when I saw Mo Salah playing, I just connected. Loved the way he played, and I thought you know what? I'm gonna cheer for that guy's team. Who does he play for? And so, you know, looked it up, and it's like, Liverpool. Liverpool's my team now. And I just got hooked on the Premier League. I mean, it's such incredible talent and high-level stuff. And so, I didn't really watch it much growing up, but I've gotten hooked the last four or five years.
Lowe: So, once you decided, right, Liverpool, my team, Mo Salah is the man. Did you go from sort of zero to 100 with football really quickly, or was it a slow burn?
Kerr: I went pretty quickly in terms of regularly watching the games. I mean, I got so hooked. I think soccer and basketball are so similar in so many ways, just trying to create space and triangles, involving your teammates, and passing, and cutting, and moving, and trying to get transitioned. There's so many parallels that it was really fun. Even corner kicks, we call them ATOs, you know, after timeouts. You know, we call a timeout. We set up all these plays. They're so similar to free kicks in corners in football. So, it's really fascinating to watch. I can't claim that I'm an expert though, and I'm also a little bit damaged as a coach. I know that everybody criticizes me, so I can't criticize Jürgen Klopp or any of the coaches 'cause I know that it's sort of ridiculous. You know, when the fans are telling these coaches what they should be doing, it's like, eh, I'm pretty sure he knows a little better than you do.
[CHUCKLING]
Hunt: Boy, don't get me started on U.S. soccer fans. What you say about triangles there, I wanna touch on because that was like a penny drop moment for me is I got into soccer also relatively late in life. I was not exposed to it at all as a kid. But I was a huge fan of the Chicago Bulls from a young age, being from Chicago, and I understood the triangle offense, for which the central tenet is to always have two passing options or a central tenet. And then I start getting into soccer, and reading about soccer, and reading about soccer tactics, and triangles keep coming up all the time. Just this notion of always having two options. So, when you discover that overlap, what did that tell you? And I guess I'm trying to get to Klay coming out recently and saying that your offense is based on Barcelona tiki-taka, like, fill in that gap.
Kerr: Yeah, yeah. So, I showed the guys a video. When I took over the job eight years ago, I knew I wanted ball movement. I love passing, and I think it's the best way to play basketball. And that comes directly from Phil Jackson with the Bulls and the triangle, and also Gregg Popovich with San Antonio. Those were both really heavy ball movement teams. And so, I just wanted to incorporate an offense that had a lot of ball movement. And the key to ball movement in basketball is that triangle between the three players, having two options as often as possible, overloading one side and swinging the ball to the other side. And so, I'm always looking at different sports as a way to motivate and interest our players 'cause they watch film every single day of our own stuff. So, if I can ever show analogies from different sports, they tend to be really interested. And so, I showed a video of Barça, you know, playing the tiki-taka, you know, possession where they just held the ball for, you know, 15 passes, but each pass had a purpose, and the guys loved it. It was way more powerful than showing a clip of the actual triangle from the Bulls or something, you know? So, when Klay brought it up a couple weeks ago, I was kind of shocked 'cause this was six years ago I think I showed it. And it was like, wow, I didn't know Klay remembered, you know, what happened in practice yesterday, let alone, you know, what I did six years ago. So, that was kind of a cool moment for me as a coach that, hey, that actually worked.
Hunt: They were paying attention to me. [LAUGHS]
Kerr: Yes. [LAUGHS]
Lowe: So, Steve, it was really funny to hear you say that you can't criticize Jürgen Klopp. You can't criticize other managers 'cause of course you're coming from where you are coming from. I'm interested to know whether or not you've reached out, or any Premier League managers have come to you, or you've managed to sort of swap ideas, get together with anybody in the Premier League to try and further that sort of, like you say, relationship between football and basketball. Have you had any experiences like that?
Kerr: Yes, in fact, I went and visited the Liverpool training grounds this past summer and had lunch with Coach Klopp and met some of the players and it was amazing. I didn't get to see a game. I was just passing through. But we connected, and I'm just really interested by these coaches. I think they're brilliant. I just finished a book about Carlo Ancelotti, and he's an amazing guy. Reminded me so much of Gregg Popovich, just that sort of quiet leadership, that dignified way of connecting with players and inspiring them. And one of my favorite things over the years has been watching the post-match press conferences with the different coaches in the Premier League because you got some characters. I mean, José Mourinho is… That's like… I would buy a ticket just to go to the press conference.
[LOWE LAUGHS]
Hunt: Have you met Gregg Berhalter at all or have any sense of him? Because he's, as it turns out, a big basketball guy.
Kerr: I have not met him. I've been impressed watching him interviewed. I was really… I felt for him the other day when he was getting peppered by the Iranian press about U.S. foreign policy and, [CHUCKLES] you know, I thought, you know, the poor guy's just trying to coach a soccer game, you know, and he's being asked about the U.S. military presence in the Persian Gulf. Like, I don't know. You know, we're just trying to win the game.
Lowe: Where do you stand? Because I assume that you don't often have to deal with the questions about too much. I know I've seen you talk about gun control and other things, but on the whole, you're not peppered with questions too many times outside of basketball. So, now we're at a World Cup with all the controversies that are happening, where do you stand on whether managers and players should have to answer those questions, Steve?
Kerr: I don't think they should have to answer them. I think they should only answer them if they're comfortable doing so. That's something I learned over the years in my coaching position. You know, I feel very passionate speaking about gun safety and sensible gun laws because it's something that I spend a lot of time thinking about and studying, and it hits very close to home since I lost my own father to gun violence. So… But if somebody were to ask me, you know, about the Persian Gulf and the U.S. military presence, I wouldn't have a whole lot to offer. You know, I coach the Warriors. So, I think it's every coach's right, every athlete's right to speak or not speak. But I would always advise anyone asking if they did, to make sure you're really comfortable about whatever that topic is 'cause as soon as you start going down a path where you're not as comfortable, then you can get backed into a corner easily.
Hunt: Well, if you're not taking questions on the Persian Gulf, then that eliminates my last question.
Kerr: Sorry.
[LAUGHTER]
Hunt: That's fine. All right. Well, listeners, if you'll please indulge me a detour into basketball history because I noticed something very amusing to me that I still have not had confirmation of from anyone on a rewatch of game six of the '98 NBA Finals. Now, when I watch that live, of course, people are hooting and hollering. They're celebrating. You can't hear the screen anymore. We all walked into the street. All was good. And then about 10 years ago, I'm flipping through channels. Young viewers, you can Google what a channel is. But I'm flipping through channels, and it's game six of the '98 finals. OK, love it. I'm sitting right here for about an hour. Many may recall that that game is won by a quite famous shot by Michael Jordan. Shortly after that, the game ends, and now I'm hearing the actual audio for the first time ever in all my recalling of this game. And the Bulls all huddle around, racing toward Michael Jordan. I'm getting from your reaction here that what I'm about to ask was indeed you. Do you remember what you said in this moment?
Kerr: I'm pretty sure I remember what I said. Maybe not the exact words, but something to the effect that "you are fucking unbelievable."
[LAUGHTER]
Was that it?
Hunt: I think it's "you're fucking amazing, man!"
Kerr: You're fucking amazing. Yeah. [LAUGHS] Yup. That was me. That was me. Wow. I had a message from my brother as soon as I got home. He called me and was dying laughing. He said I could hear you right through the TV. He said I hope Mom didn't hear it.
[LAUGHTER]
Hunt: OK, good. I needed that confirmed. Oh, I'm gonna sleep so much easier tonight.
Kerr: To be fair, he was pretty fucking amazing.
[LAUGHTER]
Lowe: That's fair. That's fair. OK, we're almost outta time with you, Steve. Just one question. So, from Brendan's passion of the Bulls to my passion, which is growing the game of football, soccer, in America, my question to you is, somebody who's steeped in the NBA and steeped in American sport, what is the ceiling, do you think, for football, soccer, in America? Do you think there is a ceiling, or do you think, long after we're all gone, football will one day be as big as the NBA and the NFL?
Kerr: It's a great question. I never thought it would reach the height of popularity where it stands right now, to be honest, just because of how important American football and basketball and baseball are. Soccer, you know, has always been below them. And so, most of the athletes growing up, played those sports first and, you know, maybe soccer second, but it's getting so popular. The athletes, you can tell… I mean, our team is faster than any national team we've ever had. I think we're getting more and more young athletes who are interested from an early age. More and more fans are watching the Premier League every weekend, since it's on national TV across the country. And that's only gonna lead to more popularity, which will lead to, you know, more and more athletes, better and better coaching. So, I think it's going up from here. I just don't know how high, but it's exciting.
Lowe: Steve, we are so, so grateful for you to join us here on "After the Whistle" today. We've loved every second. Thank you so much.
Hunt: Thanks, Coach.
Kerr: So fun. Thank you, guys.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Hunt: May I use one of your terms? Ledge. Chicago ledge.
Lowe: Yeah. I mean, Chicago, California, United States ledge.
Hunt: I love him. I love him.
Lowe: What a great bloke. OK, all right, all right, all right. Shall we talk a bit about tomorrow's matches, my friend?
Hunt: Yes. 'Cause tomorrow, folks, we've got Cameroon-Brazil, Serbia-Switzerland, South-Korea-Portugal. Again, Portugal and Brazil are through. But everyone has something to play for, including the grudge match revisited of Ghana-Uruguay. Rebecca, hit it.
Lowe: Oh, my goodness. Well, I just have that memory in 2010, wasn't it? The injustice that Ghana have held onto since Luis Suárez's handball. Just remind everybody of the chronology of what happened 'cause there was a couple of parts to this, Brendan.
Hunt: This was the World Cup in South Africa in 2010. Ghana was the last remaining African team. So, like, the whole world was rooting for them after they beat the U.S. Even I, begrudgingly, was like, all right, go for it, Ghana.
Lowe: That's so unlike you, by the way.
Hunt: I can occasionally be magnanimous. So, if I call correctly, the match goes into extra time. And then in like, the 119th minute, Ghana gets a shot on goal. Luis Suárez, then a young striker…
Lowe: Hungry. Young, hungry striker. I think that would be a good description.
Hunt: [LAUGHS] Sometimes hungry for flesh. He, nakedly, obviously, conspicuously, throws his hand up and like, Dikembe Mutombo blocks the shot. Immediate red card, and Ghana gets a penalty, and they can shoot this penalty kick to win the game. The penalty is missed. There's a fleeting shot of Suárez at the tunnel 'cause he hadn't made it all the way out. Suárez just jubilant that his master plan has worked, and then it goes to penalty kicks where Uruguay were victorious. They lost the next round to the Dutch. But a grave injustice that was rewarded and it would be pretty awesome if Ghana got theirs tomorrow.
Lowe: It would be because we all wanna see karma. Right? Definitely. I just have, and I don't… You're probably gonna completely lambast me, right? But I have a very small part of me that just wants to discuss whether or not that is cheating, or whether or not it's doing what you have to do in the moment, what Suárez did. And don't get me wrong. Oh my God, it was a bit like my feelings for Ronaldo in '06 when he got Rooney sent off. I was raging on behalf of Ghana. Don't get me wrong. And I would not want that to be an England player doing that. But this is why we love the sport, Brendan, because it kind of allows, within the rules, naughtiness. And who doesn't love a bit of naughtiness?
Hunt: Well, I think the rules specifically don't allow it. So, your question of is it cheating or is it doing everything you can to win? It can be both.
Lowe: Yes, of course, you'd get red card, but it's part of the game, isn't it? It's part of the game. But anyway, all said and done because I'm not a fan of what happened. Come on, Ghana. Come on, Ghana. The whole country has been waiting 12 years.
Hunt: Yeah. And hey, we beat you in 2014. All is forgiven. Black Stars, sail away, crush them.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
All right, folks, we're gonna send you away now with a few bits and bobs. Rebecca?
Lowe: Well, my bit and my bob revolve around the first female officials’ team that took charge of the Germany-Costa Rica game, which you watched. So, I didn't actually see the performance, but I did see them walk out the tunnel, which was, for me, who I have watched as female referees, have tried to make it in England, and there's been a couple here and there. Sian Massey-Ellis being the best at her job. She's a lineswoman. She's an assistant referee in England, but we're waiting for the day where she takes charge of a men's game in the Premier League. I think if my journey's been difficult as a woman in this world, I cannot begin to imagine what a referee’s journey as a female is like in football. So, Stéphanie Frappart, who is the referee, I can't take as many hats off as I would like to take off towards her because she must have such a layer of steel around her. Good for her. Thank you to her for being so brave. Thank you for leading the way.
Hunt: She also had a great game, which should be no surprise because she's earned this. I mean, she did, you know, the Women's World Cup final last time around. She's done Champions League games, you know, men's Champions League games, men's World Cup qualifiers. So, I was delighted to see her because now she's a familiar face, too. Like, you see certain refs, and you're like, oh, it's that ref. And she's reached, "oh, that ref" status.
Lowe: And the other thing as well is you mentioned it there. She's earned it. And that's what's so important in this world is that what we don't want is everyone panicking and going oh, people are saying we haven't got enough female refs. Let's just throw some in. And then, they have a difficult, difficult time. And then it sets the whole movement back. What we need to do is push more through, encourage more to become refs in the first place so they can get to where Stephanie is. We don't want to just even it up tomorrow. No one's asking for that. It's got to be obviously a meritocracy. It's just to get to a meritocracy, you need to find better ways to recruit women. And I'm not sure anyone in any country is doing that well enough yet.
Hunt: Our second bit slash bob will be another topic that is close to Rebecca's heart. This is not something I would ordinarily direct people to Google search, but please, when you can, Google search "Harry Maguire Ghanaian Parliament." And you will not be disappointed by what happens. Have you seen this, Rebecca?
Lowe: Well, I've heard about it. I haven't yet to actually see the footage. So, tell us, if anyone who hasn't got time to search it, what actually happens, Brendan?
Hunt: [CHUCKLES] Ooh. A minister in the Ghanaian parliament is trying to take down someone he blames for certain economic failings on the part of Ghana's economy by comparing him to Harry Maguire. It is a two-and-a-half-minute takedown of both Harry Maguire that is not necessarily based in actual facts or stats. But it's certainly in the vibes that we all feel, at least of Manchester United Harry Maguire, if not England Harry Maguire. And he's… I mean, he's killing in the room, too. Like, oh, boy, the Ghanian parliament is lapping it up.
Lowe: [GROANS] They've gotta eat their words though. They gotta now eat their words. They gotta get on board. They gotta read the room because Maguire right now is a world beater. Maguire's heading to the FIFA World Cup team right now. He's the team of the tournament. Harry Maguire's our best player. So, just lay off Harry, all right? I've always been so nice about Harry. I don't know what anyone's talking about.
Hunt: Sure. In the big picture layoff, in the short term, let's all enjoy that video. And now the most bitten bob of all the bits and bobs, we got an update on Christian Pulisic's testicles. Turns out, and he says this directly, "I did not hurt my balls." So, the pelvic contusion was not testicle related. He will be able to reproduce more brilliant number tens for us. And also, there's a lovely video 'cause he got back to the U.S. hotel before the other players did, and there was this huge welcome by all the hotel staff. And you see Pulisic there with his camera recording everyone coming in. I have never seen him smile wider than he is on this video. And given, like, the angst he goes through at Chelsea, it really was delightful to see.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Lowe: And never has a segment had a more appropriate name than bits and bobs. Thank you, Christian.
[HUNT LAUGHS]
As always, chaps and chapesses, if you're loving the show, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, and make sure you rate and review us if you have the time as well because it really helps other people find the show who haven't yet stumbled blindly across us.
Hunt: And we thank you all for your preemptive blind stumbling. And for 'round the clock World Cup News plus scores and standings, follow along on the Apple News app in My Sports where available. And if you're in the U.S., check out the news app Saturday for some very special live coverage of USA-Netherlands.
Lowe: We'll be back with more World Cup coverage right here in your podcast feed tomorrow.
Hunt: Oh, I miss Steve Kerr already. I love him.
Lowe: I think he might have just elevated himself above Roberto Martínez and Gareth Southgate in my view. That is, by the way, high bar.
Hunt: The Belgium job is open.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]