Brendan Hunt: Brett. Kylian Mbappé versus England. Optimist.
Brett Goldstein: Accidental food poisoning. Oh, dear. Mbappé, do you want some lasagna? Good for you tonight. Have a little bit. You must be hungry. All those goals you're scoring. There you go. Oh, got a dicky tummy? Oh, that's weird. It was lovely lasagna, wasn't it? [CHUCKLES] Bonne nuit!
[MUSIC FADES IN]
[WHISTLE BLOWS]
Hunt: From Apple News and Meadowlark Media, I'm Brendan Hunt.
Rebecca Lowe: And I'm a relieved Rebecca Lowe. And this is "After the Whistle."
Hunt: Reminder, there will be adult language, such coarse words as bloody or blimey, perhaps even a crikey.
Lowe: On today's episode, I am happy, but I still have notes. Excited though that England have defeated Senegal 3-nil, and we're into the quarterfinals.
Hunt: Also, we look forward to England versus France with my friend, our friend, footy fan extraordinaire, and Roy Kent himself, Brett Goldstein joins the pod to talk about lasagna. Let's go!
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Rebecca, it's the quickest we've ever gone from final whistle to "After the Whistle" because, you know, it's a very relaxed atmosphere. That was a 3-0 win for England over Senegal, the most dominant victory yet for anyone in the knockout rounds. How you feeling? How'd it go? Most importantly, did Christine and Jared come over?
Lowe: [SIGHS] Thank God no one came over. Thank God there was not a doorbell. There was not a gate rattling. There was nobody. It was just the close fam. But it's great. England are through. Job done very well. Still got a few issues though, Brendan. Still got a few issues. Let me start with the fact that… Really good result, excellent result. Performance was fine. Performance wasn't out of this world.
Hunt: Didn't have to be.
Lowe: It didn't have to be. But for the first 30 minutes, had Jordan Pickford not pulled off that brilliant save on 32 minutes… What a save that was. One of the saves of the World Cup, I think Ian Darke called it. And he was spot on because at that stage of the game, Brendan, we were not overwhelming Senegal with our creative play, which links back actually to the personnel and the team lineup that Gareth Southgate picked. So, when the teams came out this morning, gonna get it out there, right? I've said it before. Well, first of all, this is just an opinion, everybody, 'cause I'm already getting hammered left, right and center. Jordan Henderson is a class operator. You know, the guy has a tattoo of the Champions League on his thigh with the date that he won it for Liverpool in 2019 when he lifted the Champions League. Then, he lifted the Premier League in 2020. You don't do that if you're not a good player. He's a fantastic, actually underrated footballer. But is he one of the best 11 footballers England has? In my opinion, no. Could we… Should we be playing a more creative style with a more creative approach with yes, Kane up top, of course? And then you've got Rice and Bellingham, and then that three, in my opinion, needs to be three of Saka, Foden, Grealish, Rashford. Three of those four. Because there's your pace. There is your trickery. There is your creativity. And everyone's gonna say to me well, Henderson scored the opening goal. Yeah, he did. Yeah. Yes, he did. Well done. We didn't put him in to score goals though, did we? I mean, no one in a million years saw that lineup and goes, oh, thank God Henderson's in there. He's gonna get us a goal. No. No one thought that. Whoever would've played instead of Henderson would've probably been in the same position to score that goal. So, well done. Henderson took his chance, and he played excellently this morning. He played really well. Of course, he did. I just remain disappointed that we still don't unleash the dogs. We still don't let them go. And I know we won 3-nil. So, I do come from a position of, well, how can you criticize? We won 3-nil. Won't be able to do that against France. Won't win against France with that lineup.
Hunt: We will get to France. And the only quibble I would have with what you're saying is maybe Mr. Henderson is not among England's best 11 players. But at this point, isn't it not necessarily about your 11 best? It's about your best 11 for the particular event, and it would seem that Gareth Southgate made the right choices here.
Lowe: It's very difficult, isn't it, to say well, he brought in Saka, and he scored. That was the right choice. You can't say that was the wrong choice. And he's playing Henderson, and he's scored, and we won 3-nil. I'm not lambasting Southgate. I'm just saying I still think there's more. I still think there's more. And I still want to see that trickery, that creativity. We, I believe, have one of, if not, the most creative midfield and forward lines in world football right now. And I just don't think we're playing them. I don't think we're out there showing it. I think we have so much more to show. And so, that would be the quibble for me. At first half, Brendan, did not look any great shakes at all.
Hunt: Well, Rebecca, I am so sorry that England have disappointed you on their way to a quarterfinal berth. Oh, what you must endure. But perhaps if we go through the match, you'll find a modicum of joy here or there in some recounting.
Lowe: All right. Pipe down over there. I feel joy. England were very good. We got the job done. I couldn't be happier that we're in the quarterfinals. I'm allowed to have an opinion. I'm allowed to have quibbles. I'm allowed to feel that we could show more. That's all I'm saying, everyone out there. All those Liverpool fans hammering me for hammering Henderson… Wasn't hammering Henderson. But the funny thing is because for a living I ask the questions, now on this podcast, when I get to have an opinion, oh, it's causing ruptions, Brendan. It's causing ruptions, and I'm rubbing my hands together.
Hunt: I am in no way taking away from your opinions. I just find it funny that those opinions are your opener after a 3-0 win, getting into the quarterfinals.
Lowe: [LAUGHS] But it's great. But no, you're right. We're in the quarterfinals, and I'm excited by this squad. The squad excites me. Jude Bellingham is a master of his art. He really is. I mean, where is he gonna end up next summer? I don't know. Because the price tag's going up. Declan Rice is fantastic in that role. I love them both to bits. And Harry Kane to get that goal… You know, he could have ended up being the Olivier Giroud of 2018 where he's the number nine, and he doesn't get a goal, and France goes and lifts the World Cup. I thought about that before today. I thought well, if he doesn't get a goal, don't panic 'cause he could become Olivier Giroud. But what a finish 'cause he had a bit of time as well. And I just thought come on. Come on, Harry. Channel your Tottenham, Harry. Come on. And oh, what a fantastic goal. And he… Don't ask me why he didn't get taken off though. That was a bit weird.
Hunt: That was a bit weird.
Lowe: Like, at 3-nil down, what are you doing? He looks leggy, looks tired. Take him off. We've got France. Let's just take him off. Anyway, there you go. Another quibble. But that's why we're in the business. OK?
Hunt: And again, six days until the next game. And, but the fact that he did score is huge. And now, you know, the Paolo Rossi corollary still very much in play. But you're right. That first half hour was very sort of cagey at best, had our first near Maguire moment where, you know, he got in position there, and Senegal had a chance.
Lowe: He didn't have a great game, did he?
Hunt: But like, his first bad game outta four.
Lowe: I know.
Hunt: As long as it's not a downward trend, you gotta be feeling OK. So, shortly after that, and after Maguire almost had his Maguire moment, there was that fantastic Pickford save on the shot by Boulaye Dia.
Lowe: God, what a save. 'Cause it got deflected as well, didn't it? I mean, how he did that… That was out of this world. That for me was save of the tournament. But it was around that period where I was watching the likes of Foden, even, who, you know, I've been calling to be in this team. So, I was delighted he was, and I still am delighted. He's still got a long way to go. And Saka… I wanted them in the middle of the park to take players on, you know. That we just weren't taking anyone on… So, then when Pickford made that save, I got a little bit edgy. Ian Darke thought that Senegal were the better team. Actually, at no point did I think Senegal were the better team. I actually was disappointed with the effort that Senegal put into the game today. I thought they were gonna pose more of a threat. Didn't you, Brendan? I thought there was gonna be… They did really… not really lay a glove on us.
Hunt: Yeah. I mean, Senegal did the best they could without Mané. I mean, making it to the knockout rounds, as with the States, like, hey, nice achievement. Out you go. We're done with you. You get to go no further. I have a Harry Kane question.
Lowe: Go for it.
Hunt: Harry Queen. Harry Queen?
Lowe: Who's Harry Queen?
Hunt: I don't know, but I think he's a detective.
Lowe: Maybe Sir Harry? A detective? [LAUGHS]
Hunt: [SPEAKING IN AN ENGLISH ACCENT] Harry Queen, bringing you the business.
Lowe: At your service. [LAUGHS]
Hunt: Harry Kane, of course, has been known as a scorer for almost a decade now. But the last few years has become, you know, more known for his passing. In particular, I think there was a game for Spurs where Son had four goals, and Kane had all four assists.
Lowe: Yeah.
Hunt: Has this been a situation where he's always been a good passer, but no one noticed because of the goals? Or has he put the work in the last few years to become this great passer?
Lowe: He's always been a good passer. He just hasn't done it very much. He hasn't dropped off very much. He's always, in the early days of his career, been that last man at the top. You know, he's always been in the six-yard box. Yeah. And so, it's just started to happen with different managers at Tottenham that he's dropped into midfield a little bit more, and we've started to see what he can do. He is… I think Landon Donovan said it on the coverage today. He is an all-round, top, top soccer player, as Landon put it.
Hunt: Yes, I remember that.
Lowe: His ability… He did. His ability to through balls, long-range passes, win the ball back, turn, hold the ball up, and then finish is incredible. And that's why when he doesn't score on the group stage, and you start… I don't know. We shouldn't worry, really, because his contributions in the group stage were all assists. I never said drop him. I just said rest him 'cause I love him that much. We needed to, I think, rest him in the group. Any calls because he hadn't scored in the group stage, should drop him for this game, and I heard a few bizarrely, for me is insanity. The guy contributes so much. He is so valuable. He is our shining star. I couldn't love him more. I couldn't love him more.
Hunt: You could. He could be transferred to Palace late in his career, and then it would skyrocket.
Lowe: Oh my God. Why late in his career? Could be like, next year. Could be.
Hunt: You're right. You're right. It could.
Lowe: Like, even when he's going into retirement, he'll go to Palace? Yeah. Thanks.
Hunt: [LAUGHS] It's the hope that kills you. So, mere moments after having this thought, Kane finds Bellingham. Bellingham finds Henderson, and England are up 1-0. You know, the good, old hockey assist for Kane on that. What I enjoyed most about this goal was the celebration afterwards, which was comprised of Jordan Henderson and Jude Bellingham pressing their foreheads into each other, giving each other the most meaningful eyes as if like, they were Jimmy Page and Robert Plant. You know, had just finished "Stairway to Heaven" at Knebworth. I thought they were gonna kiss. I wanted them to, but at the very least, I do believe Jordan Henderson said [IMITATING JORDAN HENDERSON] I fucking love it.
Lowe: [LAUGHS] He did. He did in his northeastern Geordie accent. Also, the coming together of the foreheads at two ends of your career is a beautiful thing. You've got Henderson that's won it all. And then you've got this fresh forehead without a frown, without a furrow, without a line, no Botox here, pressed against the won-it-all forehead. It's a beautiful thing. It was like through osmosis, Henderson was passing through. You're gonna win it all as well. 'Cause let's be honest. Bellingham is gonna win it all as well. How good is he? I'm like, heart eye emoji all over the place.
Hunt: Yeah. Again, such composure, and this team is really quite smooth and really quite confident. I think it's a big part of why, you know, they certainly weren't worried when it was nil-nil after half an hour because they know where this is going.
Lowe: And I also think, to go along with that point, this team likes each other. The more you hear from the likes of Rio Ferdinand, even Peter Crouch, Nicky Butt, Paul Scholes around in that original golden generation of the early '00s leading up to that 2006 World Cup… The more you hear from them now, you know, 10, 15 years later when they can actually tell you what actually happened, there were so many cliques in that dressing room, so many divides. And it comes out in the pitch. And this is down to Gareth Southgate and his brilliant man management. This team ever since the World Cup of 2018, but really at the Euros and now forward, is definitely united. It feels like they all like each other. It feels like they get on. They're happy for each other. It has a completely different feel to any England squad I've ever seen in my lifetime. And this is why I get so passionate, Brendan, because it's right there for us. It's right there. We've got them all. In my opinion, we can win this World Cup with the talent that we have, but I don't think we're gonna win it if we play the approach that Gareth wants to. I hope I'm wrong. Let me put that out there. I tell you. Sir Gareth Southgate, arise, of course, if we win this World Cup. And actually, if we get further than the quarterfinals, were we to beat France, you're not far from a knighthood there, my friend, although he will no longer be the England manager. It's just I don't wanna lose the moment. I don't wanna lose the moment with this team.
Hunt: OK. We will get to France. We will get to the future.
Lowe: OK. Sorry, I keep getting to France. We haven't even got to the second half yet. Sorry.
Hunt: No, it's very exciting. France is right there. So, Henderson scores, and then oh boy, in a real turnabout with two minutes of added time, Senegal rush down the pitch, and at right about the exact two-minute mark, lose the ball. The Salvadoran referee, by the way, shout out to the Salvadoran referee whose name I do not have handy. But with all respect to my CONCACAF brethren, I don't recall a lot of El Salvadorian referees in the World Cups. He's great. This guy's been in a couple games, and he’s letting him play, but never too far. Anyway, he lets England take the ball up the pitch 'cause it was in the flow of play, and there was no stopping. I don't even think there was a backward pass. And then Harry Kane scores, and now similar to Daley Blind yesterday against U.S., it already feels like game over. And more importantly, Harry Kane is, as we say in America, off the Schneid and no longer has to worry about being the Harry Kane who's not scoring. This was a huge, huge goal.
Lowe: It was a huge goal. And you're right. It led to me having a very calm half-time, didn't go for toast. It was a little later, obviously, in the day. Toast had already been consumed earlier on cold butter. So, I had a much calmer half-time. You know, 2-nil… As many of our listeners will have heard me and many other football presenters say over the years, when we ask questions to our pundits at half-time about a 2-nil score line, it is a very dangerous score line because if you can get that one goal back, then suddenly, the momentum switches the other way because the team who gets the one goal back suddenly feel like it's in touching distance. And the team that's 2-1 up suddenly get nervy. So, you've got that at the back of your mind. But with this particular game, other than that one Pickford save, I didn't really feel Senegal were offering too much. And when we came out into the second half, we did start to play that slightly more intricate football. I liked it. We started to run at them a little bit more. And then of course, he made a bunch of substitutions, which also was nice to see some of those players come off the bench, although I still don't understand why Harry Kane stayed on.
Hunt: So, yes, 12 minutes after half-time, Saka scores. Even right here, Saka… Time for subs! And I am with you, and I wrote it again the 80th minute. Get Kane out.
Lowe: Did you? Yeah. Yeah, me, too. Take Kane off, three exclamation marks on my notes. Grealish really had some lovely touches by the way when he came on. He had some lovely touches. I think Rashford's body language getting off the coach, if you saw it, when the teams arrived, he looked devastated 'cause he'd clearly been told by Southgate you're not starting. But he came off the bench. It didn't do anything, but he came off the bench. So, it's a team game. It's a squad game. And I said to my husband well, his body language might not be great when he came off the coach, but he's gotta suck it up now. I mean, I'm a massive Rashford fan. I wanted him to start, but you've gotta suck it up. That's the decision of the manager, and you've gotta come on and make a difference. We didn't need him to make a difference in the end today. So, all the subs at least got some minutes in their legs. And I think also as soon as that third goal went in on 57, at least Southgate could then turn his attention, couldn't he, to the next game, and he could start working out who needs to rest.
Hunt: And that next game is the mighty France after they defeated Poland 3-1. We will talk about England and France very shortly. But first, just a quick rundown of what happened today with France and Poland. Now France came into this heavy favorites. Poland have two good players, and one of them hasn't had a good tournament at all. Wojciech Szczęsny, their goalkeeper, has had an amazing World Cup, and he has gotten them this far. Lewandowski, the great striker, has only scored once, not just at this World Cup, but in his entire World Cup career. So, it was not looking good for Poland. And so, it came to pass. Olivier Giroud scores right before half-time. Poland had been very plucky before then, but Giroud puts them up 1-0. Giroud breaks the record for career goals by a French player beating Thierry Henry's record. And then, these two goals by Mbappé in the last 15 minutes… This guy I mean, what are we watching? Now at 9 career World Cup goals only halfway through his second World Cup, or perhaps one game away from the end of his second World Cup… Who knows? We'll get to that.
Lowe: Correct?
Hunt: My Lord. I mean, you talked the other day about how this guy reminds you of Thierry Henry, one of my all-time favorite players. And I absolutely see your point. But even I must concede Mbappé imposes himself on a tournament even more than Henry ever did, and it's jaw-dropping, and he's 23!
Lowe: This is what I find so interesting about the World Cup because you look at somebody like Kevin De Bruyne who is at the peak of his powers for Manchester City domestically in the Premier League. He is the best player regularly week in, week out in the entirety of the Premier League. You get him to a World Cup, he does nothing. You get somebody like Mbappé to a World Cup, and he has the impact he's had. And I just find it so fascinating what happens and why. So, it's that age-old conversation about almost anyone can become a star. Who can stay a star? And I just look at somebody like Mbappé, and I think you've done it. You've actually cracked that. And it's not easy to do because the best of the best… In my opinion, Kevin De Bruyne can't do it.
Hunt: You're spot on. You know, like, there are so many greats who… I mean, Lewandowski, you know…
Lowe: Another example.
Hunt: You know, the greatest purest striker of the last decade, two career goals at a World Cup.
Lowe: And dare I say Phil Foden has gotta step up? You know, Phil Foden… Pep Guardiola, we'll go back to it, said, what, a couple of years ago, he's the best young player I've seen besides Messi. Well, I love Phil Foden. I want him to play every game for England 'cause I know it's coming, but it's got to come. It's got to come.
Hunt: Yeah.
Lowe: You know? So, this world stage really fascinates me as to who steps up and stays there. But that's what separates Mbappé from so many others.
Hunt: Yeah. So, he's got nine goals already. That's as many as Messi has across four World Cups. He's ahead of Ronaldo. In this World Cup right now, he has five goals already. So, not only is he two goals into the lead for the Golden Boot, but in the last 11 World Cups, I was taking a peek at this, the Golden Boot winner in 10 of the last 11 World Cups has only had six goals. He's at five already. And for the record, it's kind of lame when you win the Golden Boot with five or six. Like, I remember in 2010, it was a three-way tie with five goals, and it went to whoever had the most assists, which was Thomas Müller. But he's gonna win this thing outright. Will he threaten, in fact, the record at a World Cup, which is another Frenchman. What's his name? Just Fontaine. OK. No, what's his name? Just Fontaine. Yeah. OK. His name is Fontaine? No, no, no. Just Fontaine. I said that. His name is Just Fontaine. He had 13 goals in 1958. And suddenly, this is one of those Joe DiMaggio unbreakable records. Looks threatened.
Lowe: All right. Just… Everyone, just calm down. All right? We've got a quarterfinal game. OK? We've got a backline the world envies kind of. Not really. It's gonna be OK.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Hunt: Ladies and gentlemen, we bring you a special guest here on "After the Whistle." Rebecca, are you excited about our special guest?
Lowe: Oh, my goodness. I, and no doubt the listening millions, are going to be incredibly excited to welcome to the podcast… Brendan?
Hunt: You may know him as Roy Kent on "Ted Lasso," a role for which he has won not one, but two Emmys. You may know him from his AMC anthology series "Soulmates" that he cocreated with Will Bridges. You may know him from the teasers you have seen for the upcoming Apple TV show, "Shrinking," which he has created with Jason Segel and Bill Lawrence. You may know him from his lovely, wonderful podcast, on which I have been honored to guest not once, but twice, "Films To Be Buried With." Ladies and gentlemen, he's not there. He's not fucking everywhere. He's just here. It's Brett Goldstein.
[LAUGHTER AND CLAPPING]
Brett, thank you for being here.
Goldstein: Hey. Well, heck of an intro. Very, very grateful to be here. Huge fan of this podcast. I haven't missed an episode. To be on it is surreal.
Lowe: [LAUGHS] That is amazing. That is amazing. You've not missed an episode? That is amazing.
Goldstein: Not missed an episode.
Lowe: Wow.
Goldstein: I go to the gym, pop in this, hear you get angry at each other.
[LAUGHTER]
I've noticed each week or each episode 'cause it's now every… all the time, your anger levels sort of swap between the two of you. Like, one of… You're like good cop, angry cop every episode. But it changes, the part.
[HUNT LAUGHS]
Lowe: So true. So true. And also, I just wanna interlude here with the very, very distant thread by which you and I are connected, Brett, which I mentioned to you on our little Instagram connection a couple weeks ago. But just for the people out there, so, Brett's dad does a podcast with Steve Perryman. Steve Perryman was my husband's first ever manager. My husband was a professional footballer, and he played for Brentford. Steve Perryman was his first manager. And Paul, my husband, lived with Steve Perryman's parents in digs when he started out as a pro player. So, we are linked, Brett.
Goldstein: And Steve Perryman is very much who I used as research for Roy Kent as well.
Lowe: Really?
Goldstein: Mm-hmm.
Lowe: That is brill. I did not know that.
Hunt: There may be just a handful of our people listening who are unfamiliar with the name Steve Perryman, and I'm sure it's very, very few because Steve Perryman, of course, looms so large in English football history and Spurs history. Brett here, huge fan of Tottenham Hotspur, even bigger than Steve Nash we had on the other day. And what I've enjoyed about hearing the name Steve Perryman over the years of making "Ted Lasso" is Brett's rather constant and not very subtle hints at getting Steve Perryman to guest on an episode. In the end, we went with Gary Lineker and Thierry Henry, and hopefully that's all right. But every time I hear the name Steve Perryman now, it's like I get a tick. Like, [GROANS] stop. Stop it, Brett.
Goldstein: [LAUGHS] I've tried. I've really tried. He deserves it. He's a Tottenham legend. Anyway…
Lowe: He is a Tottenham Legend. Brett, England game, 3-nil.
Goldstein: Yes.
Lowe: Into the quarterfinals, what are your feelings right now after the final whistle?
Goldstein: I mean, it was good fun when… I mean, I've got no major complaints. I mean, I was…
Lowe: You're on the wrong pod, Brett. You're on the wrong pod.
[GOLDSTEIN LAUGHS]
Hunt: We do hot takes, Brett. Hot takes!
Goldstein: Yeah, sorry. Well, you know, I think what's interesting… 'Cause I was thinking is this all fans? Or do I think… To me, being a Tottenham fan is… Almost every other week, they're the greatest team in the world. Then the next game, it's like they've never met each other. And you sort of wanna go Harry, have you met Son? This is… You're gonna be playing together today. Do you know what I mean? And then the next game, incredible. Perfectly knit harmony. And I feel a bit like that with England. Like, they keep being either fucking… You know, the goals they scored today were like, so beautiful. And so like, yeah, this is a well-oiled machine. But the game against USA, it was like, have you guys met? This is weird. Like, do you know… Have you practiced together? I know you're all good footballers individually, but you don't seem to know what you're doing here. So, is that what every fan feels for their team, or is that specific to Tottenham?
Lowe: No, I think that's every fan. I mean, it's very Tottenham, but it's definitely every fan. But do you think that we could be a little bit more adventurous? Do you think that we could be a bit braver? Do you think we could unleash the likes of Grealish and Foden and Saka in the same blooming team on the same blooming day?
Goldstein: Well, don't we have a history of Harry Kane waiting to score, and then when he does score, he's fucking up. Like, isn't it now good? Like he… We've taken the lid off. Now he's scored, and now he'll be like…
Lowe: True. OK. Now it's all gonna be fine?
Goldstein: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, oh, I scored. Do I… Yeah, you do have it. Oh yeah. I'll fucking score all the time now. That's how he goes.
[LAUGHTER]
Hunt: But I was telling you. I'm telling you, Rebecca.
[GOLDSTEIN LAUGHS]
Lowe: I know.
Goldstein: My favorite thing about watching England is anytime you get a shot of Jordan Pickford, the angriest man… At every time you see a shot of him, all he seems to be saying is why am I here?
[LAUGHTER]
Why are you anywhere near… Why is anyone near me?
[LAUGHTER]
Even if we score, his face and vibe is like, fucking hell. Another goal? Like, he's so angry.
[LAUGHTER]
Hunt: [SPEAKING IN AN ENGLISH ACCENT] Which one of you did this? Who was it?
Goldstein: You put me on? I'm on the pitch again? Fuck you.
[LAUGHTER]
Lowe: Even when he makes a worldie like he did in the game, he was angry after that.
Goldstein: Furious about saving a goal. Always furious. I shouldn't have to even look at this ball! Furious.
Hunt: What I love about Jordan Pickford is he's really got an old-timey face, and he's a very handsome man. He looked more old-timey when like, you know, he didn't have like a nice haircut. Now he sees like, a stylist, and his hair is a little more modern, but it's really just gone from like… He still looks like he was a passenger on the Titanic. He used to look like he was in steerage on the Titanic. And now, he looks like he walks up the, you know, the nice staircase.
Goldstein: Yeah.
Hunt: And you know, he doesn't, you know, hang out with Kate Winslet. He passes her by. But he's the most old-timey slash timeless guy.
Goldstein: He passes by Kate Winslet and goes what the fuck you looking at?
[LAUGHTER]
Hunt: [CLAPS] [SPEAKING IN AN ENGLISH ACCENT] Oh, it's a big boat, is it? It's a big boat. Fuck off.
Goldstein: A fucking iceberg? Oh, fuck you. Knew this would happen.
[LAUGHTER]
Lowe: Oh my God. My dad is gonna be crying when he listens to all these swear words. My poor dad.
Goldstein: Oh, sorry.
Lowe: OK, let's…
[LAUGHTER]
Goldstein: Listen. You bring me on the pod, you've brought this on yourself. You've had warning.
[LAUGHTER]
Lowe: All right. All right. So, with Jordan Pickford being angry but also amazingly happy at the same time… England-France. Brett, talk me through it.
Goldstein: Fuck. I wish it wasn't France.
Lowe: I know.
Goldstein: I mean, when I realized it was France, I was… My heart sank a bit, and I did think oh, fuck. But I do think… [GRUNTS] It is the magic of the World Cup, right? Anything can happen. We've seen a lot. Anything has happened, and we are a very good team full of excellent players.
Lowe: Yup.
Goldstein: And if they go out and make sure they all meet each other on the morning of the game, introduce each other to each other.
Hunt: Name tag's probably good. Well, Brett, you're right. Anything can happen in the world of football, which is why I'm so happy you both are here because you two England fans are about to play a game of Optimist, Pessimist, a feature we haven't done in a while that I'm sure is Brett's favorite feature because he listens to every episode.
Goldstein: Yeah. I love it.
Hunt: Rebecca first, and then Brett. Rebecca, England has to deal with Kylian Mbappé. How will they deal with Kylian Mbappé. First, optimist?
Lowe: Oh gosh. First, optimist? OK. Changing the voice. OK. Well, I think that he could get injured in the first minute, and that would be absolutely fine. I think the rest of the team, we've got covered. Olivier Giroud, we've done fine with him. I'm not worried about the rest of the team. I think England had got it covered with Mbappé from the optimist point of view. I just… Oh God. It's so hard. Maybe Jordan Pickford could just be the angriest he's ever been at the possibility of Mbappé being on the field. It will inspire Pickford into a number of worldies. He'll go and beat Tim Howard's record or however many saves he got for the USA all those years ago. And Pickford will be the one that saves us. It'll be Pickers screaming at Mbappé about Mbappé that keeps us in the World Cup. Optimist.
Hunt: Lovely, optimistic word. OK. Brett, Kylian Mbappé versus England. Optimist!
Goldstein: Accidental food poisoning like what happened to Tottenham in the big final that we had when we were poisoned.
Lowe: Oh, yeah. Lasagna-gate.
Goldstein: So, a little… Oh, dear. Mbappé, do you want some lasagna? Good for you tonight. Have a little bit. You must be hungry. All those goals you're scoring. There you go. Oh, got a dicky tummy? Oh, that's weird. It was lovely lasagna, wasn't it? [CHUCKLES] Bonne nuit!
[LAUGHTER]
Lowe: Bonne nuit. Oh, God. Dicky tummy. Well, just so everyone else knows what that means, dicky tummy just means, yeah, bad belly. Dicky tummy.
Hunt: Oh, I think they'll get it on the context clues. Alright. Kylian Mbappé, England. Rebecca, pessimist.
Lowe: Oh, first off, hat trick. Oh, he's gonna run every fullback ragged. I mean, who knows where he plays? He plays everywhere he wants to go. The idea, the very idea, the very picture, the very image of Harry Maguire against Kylian Mbappé fills me with sheer illness, actually, is the only way I can describe that. I just feel like Harry… And God bless him for coming out of all of this stuff that he's had to deal with over the last couple of years in terms of the crap from the press. God bless him for coming out and being the best, one of England's best players so far. But the pace that he lacks is a major issue against Mbappé. Stones pulls a hammy. We have to put Eric Dier on. Again, not the fastest man in the world. Let's be honest, Brett, Eric Dier. And Mbappé gets a first half hat trick, and at that point, I'm making so much toast at half-time. It's not even funny.
[GOLDSTEIN LAUGHS]
Hunt: Brett, Mbappé. Pessimist.
Goldstein: I mean, England eat the lasagna.
[LAUGHTER]
Hunt: This become a Pink Panther movie. Pink Panther at the World Cup. The lasagna was right here. Oh no!
[LAUGHTER]
Goldstein: Oh, dear. Yeah. Mbappé's sat opposite Kane at dinner. He's got the lasagna in front of him, and then like, sort of "Princess Bride," he's going but if this lasagna was poisoned, I'd put it in front of you. No, I'd put it… But then if you think about it, I'd put it in front of me, and they go back and forth with the plates until eventually, Harry eats the wrong lasagna. And Mbappé says they were both poisoned. I built up a tolerance. Fuck you. Bonne nuit.
[LAUGHTER]
Lowe: Oh God.
Hunt: This has been Optimist, Pessimist. Now I want lasagna.
Goldstein: [LAUGHS] Careful.
Hunt: [LAUGHS] I'll cook it thoroughly.
Lowe: Can we get a score prediction from Brett after that?
Goldstein: Mm. 2-2.
Lowe: Oh God. No.
Goldstein: Extra time, 3-3, penalties.
Lowe: And who wins on penalties?
Goldstein: England because we've got Pickford, and he's so angry. He sorts it.
Lowe: Amazing. Amazing. OK.
Hunt: The best possible end to this. I think we can let Brett go.
Goldstein: This has been a pleasure. Thank you so much.
Lowe: Honestly, hilarious. Brett, you're a legend. Thank you so much for coming on the pod. Thank you, Brett.
Goldstein: Thank you for having me. Good luck.
Hunt: Look for "Shrinking" coming out on Apple TV+. Thank you, Brett. Love you.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
Goldstein: Love you.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Lowe: Oh, he is fantastic, isn't he? I mean, Roy Kent, Brett, just magic, absolute magic. What a get, I think, as they say.
Hunt: Never has someone so, so very nice played someone so very, very mean on television. He's just the loveliest bloke.
Lowe: He is a lovely bloke.
Hunt: Am I using that correctly? Bloke?
Lowe: That's it. That's good. Yeah.
Hunt: OK, great.
Lowe: My final thought is… We talked about Pelé the other day on the pod, that he'd be moved to palliative care, end of life care because he'd stopped responding to chemotherapy, and it was just kind of super doom and gloom. He's actually come out with a statement, and he has said this quote. "My friends, I want to keep everyone calm and positive." This was on his Instagram page. He said, "I'm strong with a lot of hope, and I follow my treatments as usual. I want to thank the entire medical and nursing team for all the care I've received." So, fingers crossed, everything is hopeful. He says he feels strong. The sources that we get our information about Pelé aren't always watertight. Put it that way. So, that is the latest from Pelé himself. So, continuing prayers to the great man himself.
Hunt: And for younger people who don't quite know who Pelé is, you know, Rebecca mentioned in the last pod he's in Ali's class, and he absolutely is. And that's a very special class that is, I think, even above, say, Babe Ruth or Michael Jordan because it's not only that level of greatness, but it's also that international. Like, before I really knew what soccer was, I knew who Pelé was. And he just means so much to so many people. There's some great stuff in that documentary about him that just came out. It's kind of self-produced. So, it's his version of things, but it's still well worth a watch. And the documentary, "Once in a Lifetime," about his time in the North American Soccer League. It's a breezy 90 minutes, and it's pretty great. I highly recommend it. And of course, the final film in the Pelé Triple Crown victory.
Lowe: Indeed.
Hunt: An absolute must watch.
Lowe: And there are also a few things doing the rounds on social media. I saw one on Instagram the other day that everything that you love about your current favorite player has come from Pelé. So, there were some brilliant clips of like, Johan Cruyff doing a Cruyff turn and then a shot of Pelé doing it like, however many years before. The same with whether it be Gareth Bale or Ronaldo or Messi… Everything that these players have done, it's all been done before. It's been done by Pelé. He was the original king.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Hunt: If you're loving the show, subscribe on Apple Podcasts and be sure to rate and review us. It really helps other people find the show.
Lowe: And for 'round the clock World Cup news, you know the score. For the scores and the standings, follow along on the Apple News app in My Sports where available.
Hunt: We'll be back with more World Cup coverage right here in your podcast feed at the end of the round of 16 on Tuesday.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]