Brendan Hunt: Hello, everyone, like every episode, today's podcast was recorded several hours before its actual release. And as tonight's episode was about to come out, we learned that American soccer journalist Grant Wahl died today in Qatar where he had been reporting on the World Cup. He was 48 years old.
Rebecca Lowe: Tributes are being paid on social media, and among them, U.S. Soccer released this statement$%"The entire U.S. Soccer family is heartbroken to learn that we have lost Grant Wahl. Fans of soccer and journalism of the highest quality knew we could always count on Grant to deliver insightful and entertaining stories about our game and its major protagonists, teams, players, coaches and the many personalities that make soccer unlike any sport. Here in the United States, Grant's passion for soccer and commitment to elevating its profile across our sporting landscape played a major role in helping to drive interest in and respect for our beautiful game. As important, Grant's belief in the power of the game to advance human rights was, and will remain, an inspiration to all. Grant made soccer his life's work, and we are devastated that he and his brilliant writing will no longer be with us. U.S. Soccer sends its sincerest condolences to Grant's wife, Dr. Celine Gounder, and all of his family members, friends and colleagues in the media. And we thank Grant for his tremendous dedication to and impact on our game in the United States. His writing and the stories he told will live on."
Hunt: We will have more to say about Grant as a writer and as a person in tomorrow's episode. And for tonight, we just felt we should acknowledge this tragic passing, and we send our regards to his family and loved ones. Rest in peace, Grant Wahl.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
From Apple News and Meadowlark Media, I'm Brendan Hunt.
Lowe: And I'm Rebecca Lowe. And this is "After the Whistle."
Hunt: Reminder, there will be adult language. The World Cup quarterfinals got underway today. Croatia-Brazil, Argentina-Netherlands all took it to penalty shootouts. We're here to take you through it.
Lowe: And later on, World Cup champion Abby Wambach and her wife, Glennon Doyle, who loves football, join the show.
Hunt: Let's get to it.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Rebecca.
Lowe: Wow. [LAUGHS] Oh, Brendan. We had two days off, which, by the way, were miserable. I kept wondering am I missing something? Am I missing something? No, there's nothing happening. Nothing. Literally nothing happening in the world for two days. And then, two first-class, top-notch quarterfinals. Let's start with the one that we just saw finish. Argentina beating Netherlands on penalties to make it Croatia-Argentina in the semifinals. I'm sorry, my friend.
Hunt: Heck of a game. We sure were treated to drama. A lot of drama today in both the games. I can't remember a day that had two straight knockout games of such drama and quality, but my heavens. So, getting into this game, you know, very cagey early on. One thing I wondered early, and this is a bit in the weeds, but like, why does Louis van Gaal hate Matthijs de Ligt so much? I mean, he's been at Ajax. He's been at Juventus. He's now at Bayern Munich. He's young. You know, defenders get better when they're older. But he's picked a younger defender in Jurriën Timber, and then he's picked Aké, who hardly plays for Man City. And Aké got worked today. Aké got juked just enough kind of over and over and was flailing about. And I don't know if that was a great choice by Mr. van Gaal.
Lowe: I think van Gaal is going to get some flack, isn't he? He's gonna get some flack. As much as we all love him, the Dutch fans back in the Netherlands have not been too impressed by the lack of pretty football. And they probably would have been able to swallow that if the Netherlands beat Argentina into the semis, into the final, win the thing, or certainly get to the final. But they're out. They're out of the quarterfinal stage. And so, all of a sudden, no pretty soccer, no pretty football, comes back to be what will no doubt be the headline. I mean, the Spanish press have annihilated the Spain team. I'm sure Brazil will do the same now that they're out. And we'll get to it. And the press will be coming as well for Louis van Gaal, which is a shame because he has been box office in his press conferences. But the way he has approached this World Cup, to really justify what he did for that country in particular, for that team in particular, he had to get further than this.
Hunt: It's a funny thing with the Dutch team 'cause like, on the one hand, there's the pressure to play beautifully, you know, in the great, you know, Cruyff tradition. But then, there's the relative lack of trophies. And where do they meet? But personally, I would've been fine if they'd won. Like, I kind of loved this patient vibe 'cause it's not what they usually do. But it ended up feeling, in the end, a bit of a bloodless campaign for them. And part of that is due to the group that they were given because they got a soft group, which, on the one hand is great. We'll advance. But on the other, like, it kind of takes out any need to break a sweat. You know? Like, I'm thinking to like, 2014, we opened against Spain who had just won two European championships and the World Cup, beat them 5-1. That was an announcement. That was an arrival. That got the blood pumping. And then, even in Euro 2008, where we had… "We." [SNICKERS] …you know, both France and Italy in our group. That's, you know, the reigning World Cup finalists, both, and crushed them in back-to-back games that European Championship. And there was no result like this. There's no result. There'd be no memory from this World Cup, you know, except for 10 minutes of Weghorst for Dutch fans to really hang their hat on.
Lowe: Well, I think that's true, but this is when it comes to the fine margins and the penalty shootout being what it is, because despite the fact the game finished in a draw and penalties are penalties, you still never remember the team that lost the penalties. But the comeback would've been that moment for you had you won the penalty shootout, which some people believe is a lottery, others don't. That would've been your moment because of the comeback. It wasn't like it was 1-1, nil-1, 1-2. It was a lovely comeback, especially with Weghorst, the Burnley player, by the way, Burnley player, having the effect that he had. Also, by the way, quickly, the reason you even got to extra time was because of the set piece at the end of the 90. And did you know, Brendan, that Weghorst, who scored that goal, that brilliantly worked set piece, did it two years ago for Wolfsburg in the Bundesliga. I have seen footage of the exact same free kick. So, I feel like the set piece specialist for Holland, don't worry. Move over. Weghorst knows what he's doing. It was a brilliant, brilliant set piece. That is why set pieces are such a big part of this game. But the character was there. Unfortunately, they didn't leave themselves enough time to complete the comeback. And then, if it goes to penalties, then it can be anyone's game.
Hunt: To the Dutch mentality about football, an incredible comeback because of blunt instrument Wout Weghorst, getting two is not gonna fill them with joy. I mean, if it had gotten them through to another round, you know, where they could've put on a show, then that would've pleased them. But like, you know, when Luuk de Jong came on, who was a very similar player to Wout Weghorst, not quite as physical, and I bet not fun to hang out with in any way, shape, or form. Everything about Luuk de Jong tells me like, no one likes him. I just… It's just vibes. I have no data. It's just vibes. But when Luuk de Jong comes on, I'm thinking to myself OK, we're at the crossroads right now between this is a good coach realizing like, oh, we need to go to plan B here, get some tall guys in the box, or oh, we're out of ideas, now get some big lumbering guys in there. And then Luuk de Jong was followed by Wout Weghorst. [LAUGHS] I just love his name. And the Weghorst part of that worked out. But I don't think that's gonna fill, as you say, the Dutch papers, the news, "De Volkskrant," "De Telegraaf," "Spits." They're all gonna be coming with daggers out.
[LOWE CHUCKLES]
I suppose we should talk a little bit about… What's his name? Messi? That guy?
Lowe: Yeah. Yeah.
Hunt: Oof.
Lowe: I know. It continues to be a joy. I think sometimes when you watch a game of Messi, we expect more from him than a human being can actually give, you know. An assist and a goal? Brilliant. But then, we're like, OK, now where is he? He hasn't done anything for 45 minutes. What's happened to Messi? It's like, you know, we expect so much, Brendan.
Hunt: Yeah, but he paid it off. I mean, he was [LAUGHS] just pulling the strings like it was so effortless, you know. That assist on the Molina goal, again, poor Nathan Aké. But like, just that little thing creates that little bit of space, and that's all he needs. And then the inch-perfect pass… [EXHALES DEEPLY] You know, with all respect to Wout Weghorst's status as a Burnley ledge, actual ledge in action. As fun as it is that we put in, again, "we," put in a goalkeeper in this tournament who'd never played for Holland before, you sure wanted an experienced goalkeeper here. That would've been nice. And Emi Martínez is that goalkeeper, and he ran that thing.
Lowe: Yeah. And every time I see Emi Martínez play, whether he has a worldie for Aston Villa in the Premier League, which, by the way, happens a lot, he's such a good keeper. And now, he has these great moments for Argentina. I remember back to the days, and there were many, and it was many a year that he was second choice, third choice, at Arsenal, and that he decided, no, I'm out. I'm outta here. I've got a career to forge. And I'm so pleased for him because reserve team goalkeepers is a whole world of interest to me because you can have those that literally are second choice their entire careers, make a really good living, but don't have that burning desire to want to be the number one anywhere. And Martínez, of course, felt like he was good enough to be the number one at Arsenal, which, by the way, at the time, I think actually he was better than Leno. But he couldn't get in. And so, he went to Villa, and hats off to him because I'm not sure he would've been there today had he not left Arsenal and gone to Villa. He's a really good keeper.
Hunt: Another Martínez on the team, Lautaro Martínez, who scored the final penalty. Help me with this, Rebecca, 'cause I think I need a non-male eye on this. Is he the world's weirdest looking handsome dude, or the world's handsomest, weird-looking dude?
Lowe: [LAUGHS] I think possibly the latter.
Hunt: Weirdest looking handsome dude?
Lowe: I think so. I think so. I think so [LAUGHS]
Hunt: M'kay. M'kay. Great. OK. Thank you. I'll send that out later.
Lowe: This is why I signed up for this pod, by the way. That is why I signed up for this pod. The referee, I know you would like to talk in some terms about Antonio Mateu Lahoz, the referee, today.
Hunt: I don't know that he's a coward, but I do know that he, on two occasions, behaved with cowardice. One being when Lionel Messi did what I call a "Chiellini" for MLS fans where he openly swatted his hand in the air like a windmill to put a ball down. [LAUGHS] The referee did nothing. And Virgil van Dijk was aghast. OK. That's one thing. But then, later in the match, Paredes of Argentina tears into Nathan Aké, clear yellow card. The ball bounces near him, and he kicks it with malice and intent and vigor right at the Dutch bench. Two clear yellow card offenses back-to-back! He only gets one. He should've been gone.
Lowe: Oh, you're absolutely right. He got so lucky there. And the referee, it was a lot about the referee, I felt. I also felt his use of the whistle was highly irritating. There were a couple of moments where the fracas happened. In fact, it was right after that, wasn't it? When he lobbed the ball into the bench, and then they all piled off the bench, and there was a big old coming together. And the referee just does, you know, that annoying thing where he's backing away, blowing the whistle. Oh, so irritating. It was all about the ref. I hope we don't see him again this tournament.
Hunt: I didn't mind him in his previous game. I can't remember what it was. Also, can you please say that word again that you just said? That is spelled F-R-A-C-A-S?
Lowe: Fracas?
Hunt: I love the English pronunciation of "fracas." We just call it fracas.
Lowe: No, you don't say [IMITATING AMERICAN ACCENT] fracas.
Hunt: We sure do. There's a fracas.
Lowe: Stop it!
Hunt: [IMITATING AMERICAN ACCENT] Oh, everybody come closer. There's a fracas.
Lowe: [IMITATING AMERICAN ACCENT] Stop it right now. There's not a fracas.
Hunt: [IMITATING AMERICAN ACCENT] There's a fracas down the hoedown.
Lowe: [IMITATING AMERICAN ACCENT] Oh, my God!
Hunt: No one says fracas. No one says for fracas. [LAUGHS]
Lowe: It's a fracas. OK. So, we have got… [LAUGHS] We have got Croatia-Argentina, then, in the semifinals because… Let's go backwards in time, Brendan. Because Croatia knocked Brazil out of the World Cup, the team that was the favorite, the team that I had down to win the whole thing, whole shebang. But this… What do you say, shuh-bong? If you say shebang? I mean, come on. Brazil though… Again, this game went to penalties. Oh, my God. It's a sickener, an absolute sickener. But Croatia? I mean, Brazil had it, had it right there in the palms of their dancing hands. Brazil had that semifinal place. But you know what? Croatia deserved that.
Hunt: Oh, absolutely. And also, Brazil deserved what they got. I mean, I went back and watched the second half of extra time. By the way, I also love explaining to new people$%When did Neymar score? Oh, he scored in the first minute of added time of the first half of extra time. Trust me, it's a great sport. Stick with me. But, I mean, I went back and looked at it and… [SCOFFS] I mean, you're up 1-0 with 15 minutes left in a quarterfinal. There were eight Brazil players in the Croatian half. What are you doing? Like, a minute before the goal, you could see Tite imploring his players to drop back, and still, eight players up in the Croatian half, and then they're punished. And that was… There's that h-word again. That's hubris. What are you doing?
Lowe: Yeah. Yeah. No. You know, when we talk about England at some point today, I wanna go front foot, but they're not in that situation. That is about the biggest back foot you need, you know, of all time right there. And the Brazil manager, Tite, no longer the Brazil manager, of course, he said after the game that he was out. Can I just ask you about penalties 'cause this is really interesting because the Netherlands had Virgil van Dijk take the first penalty. I'm not sure I'd have done that myself. Argentina had Messi. In my opinion, Neymar, who never got a chance, should have taken the first one. I mean, don't you? I like it when England has a penalty. I mean, I never like it when England has a shootout. But if you're gonna have one, Kane goes first. Kane goes first. Lineker used to go first. Alan Shearer? Goes first. You've gotta have the one with the highest, biggest chance of scoring, and surely that's Neymar. And then, he never got a chance to even try and pull them back into it.
Hunt: Yeah. There was a recent shootout. It was the, I believe, 2020 Coppa Italia final, Juventus vs Napoli, and Ronaldo was set to go for the fifth kick, but he didn't even get to kick because Napoli had already won 4-2. And like, hey, superstars, stop trying to be the closing act. We need you up top!
Lowe: No, I think you're right. And by the way, I would never, ever, ever criticize anyone for taking a penalty. I just felt in Neymar's situation, you gotta stand up there. You gotta put yourself forward for that. But the way that Croatia came back and equalized, this is what's so interesting about penalties, is that, you know, the momentum was then with them. And because it happened so close to penalties, because it happened right at the end of the second period of extra time just seconds away from penalties, there is nothing a human being, I think, can do about the kind of kick to the stomach that the Brazilians would've felt at that point. Even though they know they had to raise themselves, even though they know they had… You know, it's OK. It's all back to square one now. It's all level playing field for the penalties. You cannot, surely, as a human being, get out from your mind the momentum change that that Croatia goal would've affected.
Hunt: A hundred percent. [LAUGHS] I mean, but the inverse of that is after you screw that first goal, if you don't go thinking we've won it then you're not gonna have quite as far to fall emotionally. You know?
Lowe: Yeah. I know. It's a shame though, isn't it? I mean, I love… I'm so happy for Croatia. I said it on the pod the other day. This country, how does it do it with less than four million people? And they were a finalist in 2018. They know how to win football games on the big stage. So, I'm here for that. I love an underdog. I just think a World Cup with Brazil is a good thing.
Hunt: But they gotta earn it. You know? They done fucked up. Shout out to Zlatko Dalić, Croatia's coach, who, you know, the other day we were talking about, you know, gosh, I don't know if you wanna do a second campaign. But here he is on his second campaign, you know. That's two… That's a final and a semifinal, so good job him. But all three players who were involved in that last goal, Croatia's only goal, were subs. Now, two of them, which would be Vlašić and then the eventual scorer Petković, came on in the 72nd minute. So, that was a while earlier. But Orsić had just come on and got the assist. So, that is a feather in Mr. Dalić's cap, for sure.
Lowe: OK. So, now we have one semifinal set, and we are allowed to change our minds in the intervening days. But your initial reaction to Croatia against Argentina in the semifinal on Tuesday, your winner will be…? Gonna stick with the team that you've had all along?
Hunt: I still think Argentina. And the reason why is I think Argentina might look back and say that that difficult group stage is going to have been a blessing because of what it caused them to have to do was get into grind mode. They have been grinding. Brazil have been in the clouds. They were not quite ready for a dog fight against Croatia the way that I think Argentina looked ready to go up against, you know, anyone, no matter what way they're gonna play against them.
Lowe: I agree. I think it's gonna be Argentina, but I don't think it's gonna be easy. I feel that Croatia, the dog fight, the experience, the sort of "been there, done it" nature of this Croatian team will push them all the way. And I think possibly… It's a really good point that you make. Argentina started this World Cup the worst out of all the biggest teams, and they've grown into this World Cup, maybe more than any other. So, I think that that will continue. And it's very, very, very difficult to bet against Messi when he's in this kind of form. So, yeah, I too go Argentina to make it to the final.
Hunt: Yeah. And I think they look better than they did in 2014, also, generally speaking, when they made it to the final, and Messi himself looks better. I feel like, even by the quarterfinal in 2014, he looked drained and empty, and maybe it was 'cause he had a longer Champions League season before that. And maybe he has an advantage, you know, as an older fellow who's doing this mid-season, I suppose, at the end of one. But he didn't look himself in 2014 by this stage, and now, he still does. He still very much does.
Lowe: I think he can smell it. I think he can smell it.
Hunt: Yeah.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Folks, we've had the occasional guests on the show before, but today, we have not one, but two guests because they are a power couple that we welcome to the show. Both of these women are activists. They host the hugely successful podcast "We Can Do Hard Things," and they are "New York Times" bestselling authors. Also, one of them happens to be one of the greatest women's soccer players of all time, a proper American ledge. We are honored to welcome Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach to the show.
Lowe: Hello ladies!
Abby Wambach: Thank you for having us. We love this podcast so much. You guys are amazing.
Glennon Doyle: Hello, hello!
Doyle: Glad to be here.
Lowe: Aw.
Hunt: Aw. That's awfully sweet.
Lowe: So lovely to have you.
Wambach: And obviously, Coach Beard, we're huge fans. We're huge fans of "Ted Lasso."
Doyle: I cannot. Can't take it. The deadpan philosopher with the wild side!
[LOWE LAUGHS]
Hunt: [LAUGHS] All right. Let's jump in. I guess first of all, we're recording right after, literally immediately after, the Holland-Argentina match. How's everybody doing?
Wambach: Whew.
Doyle: How would you say you're doing? That was really intense for you. A lot of pacing, yelling.
Wambach: Yeah. I feel grateful because a World Cup's more fun to watch with Messi in it. And I'm glad he made his penalty. Both. What a game. I mean, it's horrible to lose a game in penalties, and you…
Doyle: Oh, my God.
Wambach: What do you think about penalties, Glennon?
[HUNT LAUGHS]
Doyle: Well, I think they should be outlawed under the Geneva Convention. And I have a lot of ideas. I think they could end on direct kicks. They could end on corner kicks. They could end on indirect kicks. There's a lot of kicks that require more people. That would be fairer.
[HUNT LAUGHS]
Lowe: I think that would be amazing. And it also would go on a very long time if we just did corner kicks. That would be amazing, Glennon.
Wambach: We call that a game.
Doyle: It already goes on forever. It never ever ends.
Wambach: That's just a game.
Lowe: [LAUGHS] Glennon, can you just describe for the listeners, like, what's the living room like when there's a World Cup game going on? Just to give us the flavor.
Doyle: Well, it feels upsetting. There's a whole lot of yelling. There's a lot of screaming. Nobody sits down. I don't even know why we bothered to buy a couch. Our dogs stay in our bedroom, and they shake the second the TV goes on and they see a soccer game because it's so loud. She's just… She's really intense about it. And she stands. She stands for every play, every anthem. She only sits down at commercials. It's intense, you guys.
Lowe: Is that accurate, Abby?
Wambach: Yes. When it's a good game, I'm intense about it. I think that I'm in it. I'm involved. Like, my blood pressure and heart rate were raised during the penalties. And then I cannot believe how the Netherlands were able to score on that free kick in the way that they did. That was like, such class. And I just think so well coached, you know? Nobody does that. I just love watching good games. That's why football, soccer, is so fun because things can change in a matter of a second, you know, a matter of like, one play.
Doyle: Yeah.
Hunt: So, Glennon, I'm getting the impression that World Cups are slightly new to you. So, before we get into this, could you guys walk me through the timeline of your courtship? You know, vis-à-vis previous World Cups? 'Cause, you know, they come around, you know, pretty often.
Doyle: Yeah, all of her cups were over.
Wambach: All of my cups were over. Yeah. We met when I had retired. And I think that that's probably for the best.
[HUNT LAUGHS]
Doyle: For sure.
Wambach: I don't think Glennon would've been able to survive bloody heads.
Doyle: Oh, my God.
Wambach: Last minute heroics.
Doyle: No, I can barely survive you watching games.
[HUNT LAUGHS]
Wambach: That's right.
Doyle: I feel like I have to support you. I have to comfort you. And so, I'm glad you're in the room.
Wambach: A way that I get her involved in the excitement of the game is I just tell a story. Sometimes I lie.
Doyle: She makes up stories about the players.
Wambach: I make up a story about the player.
Doyle: This one got out of poverty. This one mother's an addict. This one… Just so I'll stay and cheer. She knows how to get me attached.
Lowe: That's genius.
Wambach: 'Cause then she's in. She's like, so committed.
Doyle: Yeah.
Hunt: And Glennon, you know, there was that lovely, lovely video during the Japan shootout that Abby shot and posted, and you appeared to be near tears, or perhaps actually crying at the team that you had perhaps never watched before.
Doyle: No. [LAUGHS] I only… No.
Hunt: No? Just making sure. But I had a thought about you today, you know, looking forward to this. At one point… [LAUGHS] At one point, after the Brazil game and, you know, Neymar didn't even get a chance to shoot. And they had a close-up of him after the game. And I realized oh, my God. They are now using HD super slo-mo on tears. Like, tears are just falling and absolute… You're getting every glisten of reflection as every rivulet goes down every pour, you know, into every bit of stubble. You're being toyed with. It's not entirely your fault.
Doyle: Exactly. It's a setup. She says come on, honey, watch the soccer. And then it's like, the best of times and the worst of times, and it's so emotional.
Wambach: What did you just say about the stadium? What did you just say upstairs about the stadium and how beautiful it is?
Doyle: [LAUGHS] Well, watching these people when they pan to the stadium, and people are just bawling, and grown men are hugging each other. And I think men play the sport so that they can finally hug each other.
[LOWE LAUGHS]
And it's just like, I wish that people would stand at the U.N. and be that excited about anything going on, but I'll take it. It's a beautiful freaking thing. It's like this container in which to experience all of our emotions. But it is a trick. It's an emotional trick.
[HUNT CHUCKLES]
Lowe: This is so fun, Abby, because as you well know, the rest of the world, football is the thing. So, like, Glennon is like this rare species that is new to this thing that like, virtually everybody else in the world is kind of like, you know, has loved it forever. There are not many Glennons around right now.
[LAUGHTER]
Doyle: Beginner's mind. it's beginner's mind. It's Buddhist. It's like when people are fresh at something, they can see the magic and awe in it because they're not jaded to it.
Wambach: And also, I think that when I joined this family years ago, you know, obviously I have my background with soccer and sport, but the way that I consume it… You know, I'm not watching the NBA regular season. Like, I'm watching, like, the big moments, the moments that matter. And I think that it's been really interesting to watch your progression into the sports is what we call it. She knows some stuff.
Doyle: I know some stuff, you guys.
Wambach: She's like, seems like they're really possessing it more than the other team.
Doyle: And I gotta tell you the other thing, all right? When I started learning about the women's national team and what they have been through and how they have built this shit from the ground up and what… I said to myself, I'm gonna do everything I can do to bring more people to the game, didn't I? And that's gonna be hard since I don't know anything. [LAUGHS]
[HUNT LAUGHS]
But I am doing my best with all I don't know.
Wambach: You're doing a great job.
Lowe: You could be the key to football exploding in America. I mean, we have all bloody tried, can I tell you that, for the last 10, 20, 30 years. We've all done our best. Abby has retired from cups. She can do no more. She has cups. She's retired from cups. You know, we're all trying. But, you know, I feel like Glennon could be the key finally to spreading the word, Brendan, that we've all tried to spread.
Hunt: A hundred percent. And like, you know, this both feels very rare, and I feel like it's happening, or I hope that it's happening, more places. You know, people are turning it on for the first time through some deception from a loved one, but perhaps, sure, been like, oh, wait a minute. I'm into this. Because it may be deceptive. It may be amazing. It may be emotional, but it is of course very, very addicting.
Wambach: Rebecca, how do you like England's chances tomorrow?
Lowe: I feel a little bit sick. And all these penalties today? Honestly, if it goes to that tomorrow, I honestly, the bottom half of me is just gonna fall out. I feel ill. But I actually think if we take the game to France and don't over worry about the best player in the world, Mbappé, I think, you know, let's not sit off. Let's give it. Let's go and get it. We've got the players finally to do that. Correct?
Wambach: [LAUGHS] Yeah. I mean, France is a strong side, like, no doubt. So, you're gonna have to utilize a lot of your attention to Mbappé and Giroud. But you don't get to the final by sitting back and holding on. You win a final that way.
Lowe: Yes.
Wambach: Finals are different because there's so much emotion that you gotta play very risk averse. You wait for your moment, and then you attack. I mean, there's been only one final I've ever played in that was a multi-goal scoring game that we beat the other team, against Japan in 2015. But for the most part, finals are just stressful. A lot's going on. And so, you just gotta be very defensive minded. But to get to the final, you gotta go after it. You gotta take risks. You guys have the talent, you know. I mean, Harry Kane like, let's go. Score some goals. He's been doing great this cup, so…
Lowe: Yeah. Yeah.
Wambach: Bringing it home. Bringing it home.
Lowe: I think it might be coming home. Think it might be. If we were to win on Saturday, I think it might just be coming home. Glennon, do you think it might be coming home?
Doyle: I feel almost positive that it's coming home.
[HUNT LAUGHS]
Lowe: That's it.
Wambach: Do you know what that means?
Doyle: I think it might be about a cup.
[LAUGHTER]
Wambach: Yeah. You know what? You know what I think would be really great? You know, the English women, the Lionesses, they brought it home for the Euros…
Doyle: Yes. I remember that.
Wambach: So, maybe the men can follow in their footsteps?
Doyle: Yes! Men can do anything women can do, you guys. I feel strongly about it.
Hunt: That's very charitable. Thank you for that. I appreciate that.
[LAUGHTER]
Lowe: OK. All right. OK. I feel more confident, and yeah, if Gareth could just listen to Abby. I agree. You don't get to a final unless you go for it. Yeah. OK. I agree. But it's just… The penalty thing. I mean, how do you…? Abby, you've done it. You've been there. You've stood over the ball to take a penalty and a shootout. Explain to me, and us how you do that.
Wambach: Yeah. So, a lot of factors are involved that are hard to put into context 'cause every situation's different, right? Most penalties from a hard fraught match are a lot of times the waning minutes of regulation, the team scores to equalize, to send it into extra time. Sometimes, there's goals scored in extra time and then equalized goals to send it to penalties. So, how that momentum gets shifted through penalties, and then whoever kicks first and second, to me, has always been one of those things. It's like the first thing you win in a penalty shootout. Today didn't matter. Netherlands shot first. You always want to go first. But when you're standing on the ball, you are only thinking about your shot. You're not thinking about what is the goalie gonna do? What's gonna happen if I make this? What's gonna happen if I miss? So, I always had the intention… Put the ball down. Look at the ball. Don't look at the keeper. Look at the ball. And you know, I think I only missed two penalties in my entire career.
Lowe: What? Wow.
Wambach: I know. One happened to be in the final World Cup, which was a doozy. I'll never forget it. But, fun fact, when we were playing against Brazil in the 2011 World Cup where we scored that super late goal, and we sent that game into penalties, I was standing over the ball. I was the third shooter. And our strength and conditioning coach actually uses this data point when she goes and talks about her experience training our team. My heart rate was in the 90th percentile standing still on the ball, just waiting for the whistle to get blown. So, what your mind can do to the physiology of like, your actual heart rate, your body, what it's going through is really intense. And I believe that penalty kicks are not for the faint of heart, are for the people who are…
Doyle: They're for no one. They're for no one.
Wambach: Yeah. They're for the people who are capable of failing immensely because it's so much pressure. You have the entire, you know, success of that game on your back.
Doyle: I always just think about their mothers, you know? Like imagine being their mom and watching them in that high-stressed position. [GROANS]
Wambach: Yeah. Goalkeepers and goalkeepers' parents. It's brutal.
Doyle: Yeah. Goalkeepers' moms and dads. [GROANS]
Lowe: So, if one of your teammates says I'm out, this is not for me, are you OK? I mean, Glennon, I feel like you'd be very generous in that moment. I think you would say to a teammate… If teammate said Glennon, I'm not taking a penalty, I feel like Glennon would totally get it.
Doyle: Yeah. I would feel like I would say you guys, let's just not do this.
[WAMBACH LAUGHS]
Ties feel good.
[HUNT CHUCKLES]
Wambach: It's usually determined well before that though. So, like… Yeah. Weeks and weeks before, you're practicing penalties. Everything's getting statistically calculated. Where you shoot, how you shoot. So, then the order of which the takers take those penalties sometimes is determined 'cause you wanna have three right-footed players coming across their body or three right players in a row. Right? So, sometimes you strategically put them in or put them in certain spots. So, there's a lot more to it than just like, who wants to take it? Like, the coaching staff has like, their top 10 list and…
Doyle: And then they have a list. They give you a list of where they think the guy's gonna shoot, the other guy's gonna shoot.
Wambach: Yeah. So, I don't know if you saw today on the broadcast, but the Netherlands goalkeeping staff taped on the Netherland's goalkeeper's water bottle something. And on the water bottle was likely who the kickers were, where they will most likely kick it, to give him a little bit of an edge or an advantage.
Lowe: I mean, it didn't work. That's what's so interesting. You can do all that homework, but it didn't work in the end for the bloke, did it?
Wambach: It's all crapshoot, really. You're just trying to statistically get an edge…
Lowe: Oh, God!
Doyle: Rebecca feels the stress of the soccer. I like that. I am gonna be rooting for the England team because of you, Rebecca.
Lowe: Thank you, Glennon. Thank you, Glennon. Appreciate that.
Doyle: Yes, you're so welcome. I'm gonna have you in my heart.
Wambach: I want England because there's no more cynical fan than an English fan in the second half with a lead.
Lowe: And I think we've just run outta time, so…
[LAUGHTER]
Wambach: But I want it for you!
Doyle: Yes, she wants it for you.
Wambach: I want to change the cynicism into reality and hope for bringing one home for your country.
Hunt: Let the icy English hearts melt.
Doyle: Aw, yes.
Hunt: Just one time.
Wambach: Right? Just once.
Hunt: Again, we know you have to go. I just have one last thing for you, Abby. Me and my partner have a 22-month-old and it took like, oh gosh, four years of fertility treatments to, you know, make that finally happen. But for me, it was never in doubt because our doctor's name was Dr. Wambach.
[LOWE GASPS, CLAPS]
Doyle: You knew that doctor was coming through in the clutch.
Wambach: That's right.
Hunt: Yeah. I really had no doubt whatsoever. [LAUGHS]
Wambach: That's amazing. Congratulations.
Doyle: Congratulations!
Doyle: Aw! 22 months. That's good stuff.
Hunt: Oh, well, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.
Wambach: Thanks for having us on, y'all.
Lowe: Thank you, guys, so, so much. What an absolute joy and honor. And love your podcast. Love the books. Legends. Love you guys. Thank you so much.
Wambach: Thanks so much.
Doyle: Thank you. What a treat.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Hunt: Well, I was just wondering like, are we working tomorrow? 'Cause I can't remember. I don't have my schedule in front of me. What's happening tomorrow? Is anything happening tomorrow?
Lowe: So, tomorrow, I may or may not arrive on the pod. Full stop. I mean, full stop. Period. End off. Might break my contract. It's mahusive is what it is. It's absolutely mahusive. It's England against France in the quarterfinals of the World Cup. And by the way, with what Croatia did, and England are not as big an underdog as Croatia were, it gives me more hope. I think the biggest thing here, Brendan, is what system Gareth Southgate plays. So, he has played a four at the back throughout this whole World Cup. And it's worked. USA wasn't great, but it's worked in every other game with the top scorers at the World Cup. We've only conceded two goals, and they were against Iran when the game was already won. However, France are a whole different kettle of fish. So, might he decide, with Mbappé on the left, might he decide to play a back five with Walker, the right side of the three, with Stones and Maguire, obviously the left back Luke Shaw, and then Trippier, so that you're kind of covering Mbappé at every turn in front and behind. That then leads you to have Rice and Bellingham in midfield with Bellingham getting that license to go forward. And then though, you are a man down compared to if you play a four, of course. So, anyone new to football, you can play a back five, back three, however you wanna call it. But it means that then you don't get that extra player to be creative at the other end. So, I don't wanna do that. I really hope that Gareth has the confidence in this team. And the noises coming out of the England camp, Brendan, are that he is going to take the game to France. Now, I will believe that when I see it. And my goodness, do I hope it so, so much 'cause I really think that is the only way that this England team are going to be able to progress. We cannot sit back. We cannot sit off them and give them the ball. One of the ways that we're gonna stop this France team is if we stop the ball getting to Mbappé. We gotta possess the ball, and we've gotta take on France. And so, I would like him to stick with the four, which allows us to have that extra man in midfield going forward. So, I think this system… I'm not always sure that systems are always as big as they're made out to be in football. I think sometimes, it can be a little inside baseball when people love to talk a system. But I really think in this particular case, go with what works, Gareth. Go with what works.
Hunt: [SOFTLY CLAPS] Bravo for all that. You've given it a lot of thought. Applaud that. I applaud that.
Lowe: I have. I mean, I think of little else. I think of little else right now on my dog walks.
Hunt: [LAUGHS] I am certainly rooting for England tomorrow. I do not have the tactical insight that you do. I can only say it feels like… As a dumb fan just going with his gut, it feels like the only way to beat and Mbappé, since you won't stop him, is to outscore him.
Lowe: That's a great point. That's a great point.
Hunt: You know, just do more than they do.
Lowe: We're not gonna stop him, are we?
Hunt: And I thought to myself how the fuck did they lose at Euro 2020? I can't remember. And I went back, and they were up 3-1 on Switzerland, must have been coasting feeling real good about themselves, and then gave up two late goals, and then lost on penalties. The hubris factor can be there if France gets ahead. Basically, I'm agreeing with you. Like, England just have to just pound it in, pound it in, pound it in because there's [LAUGHS] not gonna be much call for anything that'll be like an effective defense against France.
Lowe: And just finally on this, Brendan, you're absolutely right. The key to it is that we actually do have the goal scorers. There have been competitions in the past where one or two players are really gonna score the goals. And that's about it. We have them all over the park. I mean, just look at who scored. Pretty much everyone's scored. So, we can outscore Mbappé because I just don't think for 90 minutes you can keep him quiet because he's gonna get the ball at some point. Just please don't let him out on the outside. If he gets the ball, show him inside. No, hang on. I'm going mad. If he gets the… No, that's right. I'm just trying to work that out in my head. Basically, just don't let him get the ball. All right? Just don't let him get the ball. Do something, Kyle Walker, Kieran Trippier, John Stones, Harry Maguire. For your country, don't let him get the ball. Don't show him either side. Don't show him anywhere. Show him the other way.
Hunt: I love your emotions. I love your emotions. And you know what? It's because you don't get to show the emotions about Crystal Palace on your incredibly neutral weekly program. But here, let it out. Let it out!
Lowe: I'm scared.
Hunt: Let your heart beat until it's a fracas. Fracas in your ribcage.
Lowe: [LAUGHS] Fracas. Oh, Brendan. So, I won't sleep too well tonight. And it's annoying that it's an 11 a.m. Pacific kickoff because that's a very long morning, isn't it? I mean, at least there's another game to keep us busy, but oh, good Lord, good Lord.
Hunt: Oh, and there is another game to tomorrow, folks. Portugal-Morocco. No one thinks Morocco has a chance, but wouldn't it be awesome?
Lowe: Oh, sorry. I was still thinking about England.
[LAUGHTER]
I was still thinking about England and waking up.
Hunt: All right. No one let Rebecca drive today.
Lowe: Brendan, I can't focus on Portugal-Morocco. I'm really sorry. I know it's in the rundown. It's just not in my brain today. I mean, is it even happening? Nobody knows. I'm only thinking about England. I'll talk to you about Portugal-Morocco at a later date.
Hunt: [LAUGHS] And even that is only a maybe.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Lowe: OK. My final bit and bob, and I don't know, Brendan, if this has happened to you, but I feel like if it's happened to me, it's happened to most people. Can we issue a rule to the world? OK? You're not allowed to text during a game, and here's why. Everyone's internet works at different speeds. Now, it's not 1998, so I don't have cable, OK? I am watching this game off YouTube TV, and my internet, not the Mae West. Not gonna lie, it's not the best. So, it's a little on the slow side. Now, I do, therefore, feel I'm a little behind everybody else. If I get one more text going "whoa" before anything's actually happened, and "oh, guess what?" Thirty seconds later, there's a goal. Oh, that's what the whoa is for. I'm going to explode. It happened during the England game. Blame my husband for this. We had a momentary tête-à-tête about it during the game because I think it was the first goal, right? England against Senegal. And the build-up looked like there was gonna be a goal. So, I kind of got up off the sofa. My husband didn't, which gave me a red flag in my head. Anyway, back to the game. Goal goes in, husband doesn't celebrate. I'm like, what's going on? He said, oh, I just got a text. I knew we'd scored 1-nil 'cause my mate in England texted me. OK. We're taking all the joy out of it now. We need to stop texting across the Atlantic Ocean. We need to stop texting across the Pacific Ocean. We need to stop texting. My friend down the road texted me today from the same town that I live in with a big "whoa" 30 seconds before Argentina scored. I don't need the woes. I don't need the texts. Internet is at different speeds. Let's stop the texting. Tomorrow, I'm gonna put my phone on mute, and I'm gonna put my husband's phone… In fact, I'm gonna throw my husband's phone into another room. We are not having texts to tell us what's happening before it happens because AT&T can't sort out the speed. All right?
Hunt: [LAUGHS] Bravo. Bravo. Bravo! Also though, mute those phones. You're gonna have to mute those phones. That's gonna be important.
Lowe: I'm gonna have to. I know. All right, friend. I may or may not see you again.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Hunt: [LAUGHS] Hey, I would never blame you. Not for a second.
Folks, if you're loving the show, subscribe on Apple Podcasts and be sure to rate and review, as it really helps other people find the show.
Lowe: And for 'round the clock World Cup news plus scores and standings, follow along on the Apple News app in My Sports where available.
Hunt: We will be back with or without Rebecca with more World Cup coverage right here in your podcast feed tomorrow, Saturday.
Lowe: Also, we have been so overwhelmed by all the love and the support that we have received over the past few weeks that we want to give you, our lovely listeners, a special treat. Now, we wanna give you guys a chance to ask us some questions. To submit it, simply record your question via voice memo on your phone and email it to… Are you ready? Do you have a pen? Write it down. A-T-W, as in "After the "Whistle," at Meadowlark, all one word, dash media dot com. That is atw@meadowlark-media.com. We will select a few and answer them on our December 17th show, which is our penultimate show. Please keep them to 30 seconds or less and focus them on football. That would be great.
Hunt: Not the NFL. Wrong football.
Lowe: Although, I'm very good at the NFL. I know a lot.
Hunt: I bet. I bet. I wanna see you get into the NHL as well.
Lowe: Yeah. I can't see the puck. I can't see it when it's on telly. I can't see the puck. I mean, what is the point if you can't see the puck? I mean, what the puck am I gonna do about?
Hunt: Nice. You're made for this.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]