Rebecca Lowe, Narrating: I may well say this every two years, but this time I really mean it. Brendan, I am officially done when it comes to hope with England. This heart is gonna take some time to heal and it really hurts right now.
[MUISC FADES IN]
Brendan Hunt, Narrating: That's the pain talking Rebecca.
Lowe: And soon it'll be the wine talking.
[LAUGHS]
From “Apple News” and Meadowlark Media, I'm Brendan Hunt.
Lowe, Narrating: And I'm Rebecca Lowe. And this is “After the Whistle”
Hunt: Low indeed. Reminder, there will be adult language.
[LAUGHS]
Lowe: So, the semifinals are decided. England are out. I'm not particularly interested in talking about it, but here we are.
Hunt: We'll walk through the shocking upset that was Morocco, Portugal and finally we will pay tribute to our friend, journalist Grant Wahl. Let's begin.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Hunt: First of all, Rebecca my condolences two, and to all England fans.
Lowe: Thank you, mate. Thank you. I'm, I literally turned the TV off five minutes ago and walked in here. So, I'm still trying to process the disappointment. Ugh, I'm absolutely devastated. The three or four things I've just written at the top of the page, oh God, are, England with a better team, but that's football. The referee was a joke. He was diabolical. France fouled England all night -- but that's a compliment, actually. And it wasn't in Mbappé that threw us out of the World Cup. And the other thing of is that Harry Kane missed from 12 yards. And I am struggling to be angry at him. And I think that he will get flack, because some, unfortunately, that's life. And when you're Harry Kane and you're one of the best in the world, and you're 12 yards out against the player who plays for Tottenham that you face in training and have done for 10 years and you've already scored against him in this game, you have to score that. You have to score that. And I'm forcing myself to say that because I know that that's the, not the right thing to say, but that's just a fact. And he just gotta score that Harry. But, I can't be mad at him because no one loves England more than Harry Kane. No one has done more for England, you know, if he'd scored that goal, he'd had more goals than any other England player in the history of the country. The guy is a walking legend, and he will be devastated. And I hate that for him. I hate that for him. Yeah. So those are my kind of headlines. What, what did, from an outsider looking on, what, what did you make of it in terms of big picture, Brendan?
Hunt: I agree that England, were a better team, you know, by late in the second half, about midway through the second half, like between that phenomenal Pickford save and then Giroud scoring shortly after, they were playing with such composure and, and they were not, they were not panicking at all, you know, as, as, as this. But you don't get any points for that. No, and then suddenly Giroud scored. They're the better team in the number of chances, but then that also means conversely propagate. It was, it was, it was staggering the amount of chances they played so very well. And France were on their back heels, the whole game.
Lowe: It was interesting, wasn't it? Because the first 20 minutes I was disappointed. I thought we were pressing a little bit more than we had done in previous games. But actually France scoring, we became a different animal. In kind of classic Gareth Southgate way, reactive, right? So France score, and whilst I was disappointed, I knew that that would mean that we'd have to come out. And we did, and we played much better as soon as France scored, actually it one nil down with something to chase. And then the sec, that 20 minutes you are talking about just before Giroud scored it was, I, I wasn't nervous. I was, I think, I think we've got this. I think we've got this.
Hunt: Felt that way.
Lowe: And then, just before the save. Yeah, just before the save before Giroud's goal. So Pickford save from Giroud, and then obviously Giroud scored in almost the next play. Just before that, they had just started to get a hold of the ball back, and I stood up off the sofa and I said to my husband, okay, okay, now I think we need to make changes. I think it was on about 72, 75. Okay, now, okay, we've had our 20 minutes and we didn't get a goal, like you said, we didn't get a goal from that 20 minutes of really good play. As soon as we came out for the second half until that Pickford save it was all England until just, well, just before that Pickford save. Then I just said, okay, they've just started to get handle on it. We had a warning with Pickford save. We've gotta make some changes here because it's not work now with the same team Gareth, that you've put out from second half. And, and so far you've made the right choices, but now you've gotta look at change. And I, I, I, you know, it, it's easy for me to say of course, but it was too late and Giroud really, really good header. But, you know, a Premier League defender needs to be able to defend that, I think. And the -- the irony is, of course, Harry Maguire doesn't really play the Premier League very often. But he's been really good this tournament, so I'm not coming for him. I'm not gonna come for any of the players. But God, it was disappointing that Olivier Giroud, who we have seen four years in England, does the damage. Does the damage. Oh my God, I'm so disappointed. I am so gutted. And it comes back. And I was thinking of you, Brendan, at the end when I was watching, and Rashford got the free kick, and I was thinking, this is our moment. This is the World Cup right now. Rashford's free kick. This is the World Cup. It is the hope. It's the hope that kills you. Look, look what I did. I said, I think on episode number one, we'll be lucky to get out the group stage, Brendan, because I'm trying to like, you know, lower the expectations. And then this week I'm like, Brendan, I think we're gonna win the World Cup. And now I feel ill. This is the problem. And this is why football is so, so hard, so, so hard. And I, I feel drained of, of everything. Feel drained of everything.
It's the cruelty of the World Cup. Like in, for every fan of every country, you know, especially, even, even if you just get outta the group stage or have one good result in the group stage, just eventually all logic goes out the window. And, and the thing is, like, even, even Brazil haven't won it in 20 years. No matter what degree of, of hope or enthusiasm or belief you have, the World Cup does not care. The World Cup will crush you, 99 times out of a hundred, and yet we walk right in the door again every four years.
Lowe: Yeah, we do. Why do we keep coming back? Why do we keep I may not come back. Pardon us? I'm, I'm just giving you a warning. I may not,
[LAUGHS]
Hunt: No. That, that's I think the second step of grief.
Lowe: Yeah [LAUGHS].
Lowe, Narrating: The ref, the ref goes, neatly into the first half actually. So, they are parallel in my opinion, because, and it wasn't shown on the coverage, which I don't really understand. I know they take the World Feed, but in the buildup to the France goal, there was a foul on Saka up the other end. I mean, it was, it was quite sure it could be clearer, actually. Quite sure it could be clearer. And they didn't really show it very much, but it was 100% a foul on Saka in the buildup to the France goal. That was the first time the referee made me mad Brendan.
Hunt: Yeah. And I got a couple others. The second penalty is the huge one for me. But I, don't want to jump straight to act three.
[LAUGHS]
Yeah so many acts with this ref. The Saka foul not given. In fact, they fouled Saka all night long.
Hunt, Narrating: Yeah, he was really targeted.
Lowe: He really was. And they couldn't handle him. Why? We took him off, by the way, I don't understand, but don't get me side on that. Because he was the one player they couldn't handle.
Hunt: No, hold on, let's talk about that. Like, I'm, I've somehow gotten to the point where like, I'm no longer shocked by any, almost any substitution. I am, I'm almost always now like, well, they know more than me. It's fine. Maybe that guy's hurt, whatever. And very rarely am I in in, in, you know, just dis disbelief. But here I was in disbelief. he was the most dangerous player for England by, by a mile. I did not understand that at all.
Lowe: I know. I know Brendan, and I, I love, I love Gareth. All right? I think we've established that on this podcast. I am a huge Gareth Southgate fan as a person, and at times as a manager for being the second most successful manager this country's ever seen behind Alf Ramsey. But his substitutions have been a problem for me since he took the job. And I didn't see today anything from him in match management, in game management that told me he had learned from the Euros and learned from the World Cup. So, Saka coming off later, mind blowing for me. In that first half though, we go one nil down, should have been a foul, should have been a foul. Actually that then makes us play with purpose, right? This England team then played with purpose, and that's when we are good. So, like I said at the beginning, wasn't too devastated. Cause it was early on, wasn't it set 15, 17 minutes or something when France took the lead. We had plenty of time. But then the Kane penalty claim, now I think from the two angles that we got for some unknown reason, we didn't get any other angles. I think it was outside the box, I think, but who knows, right? Because we, we didn't see any angles. Plus, if it wasn't a penalty, if it was outside the, it was a free kick. It was a free kick on Kane on the 25th minute. So, another one that I was annoyed at, right? Yeah. By half time from this ref. 10 minutes after that, there was a foul on Saka, just outside the box, again. I mean, clear as day, hashtag clearest day is what is gonna come out of this podcast is a new hashtag, hashtag clear as day. All right, Saka, again, fouled on the outside of the, just on the outside of the box, but no, France constantly fouling to break up play. I kind of felt like we should have fouled more because that ref was all over the shop. Diabolical. Well, if it was that bad, just do just England join the party, because that's all France did. Oh God. So at halftime I was double nervous. One nil down nervous, but also this ref is this is gonna be a factor if the first half is anything to go by.
Hunt: Yeah. Before we get too far past credits where credit it's due, Tchouaméni's goal. Fantastic.
Lowe: Oh, it was, I mean…
Hunt, Narrating: Don't, don't wanna completely overlook that. We've seen him score from there before. He's got that in his locker for sure. And that was quite a strike.
Lowe, Narrating: I don't agree with the analysis of Bellingham, you know, it went through his legs and that was an era. I mean, he was trying to block the ball. I, I found that bizarre that, that Bellingham was getting some jib for the fact that it went through its legs. I mean, the guy was trying to block the ball. I mean, Pickford will be disappointed to be beaten from that far out. But yeah, I mean it was a lovely goal. Obviously, I see everything from England glasses. It's really difficult for me to see from many other, but I can see that was a lovely goal. Yeah, great.
[LAUGHS]
Hunt: So, second half, like you, like I'm, I'm feeling like England are not fussed. Like this is, this is something they, they can, they can deal with. And that's not often the feeling I have when England are trailing. You know, I often think like they're just, oh, well this'll be it then, you know, they're not, not even come out. But then sure enough, within 10 minutes Harry gets his penalty. And when Harry gets a penalty, you feel great because Harry Kane never misses a penalty. Harry Kane is rock solid. He has money in the bank. Here he comes and sure enough, one to one.
Lowe: And the mind game's fascinating, aren't they, Hugo and Harry. I mean it is fascinating, that whole situation. I don't envy Harry came as well, you know, you, you, you almost don't wanna take a penalty against your club teammate. Surely, I, I can't see how that helps the situation in any way. And drew level with Rooney with that goal, which was fantastic, and that last Saka actually got a call. So, it was penalty on Saka by Tchouaméni as well. He gave away the penalty. But Saka again was causing all these problems. And then we had a real game then we had a real game. And I mean, we can talk about Mbappé now because as I said at the start of the pod, Mbappé wasn't the player that, that got us out the World Cup by any stretch. I thought we did a pretty good job on in Mbappé today. Walker did a good job on him. We closed him down two or three England shirts around him at all times. He couldn't cut inside when he wanted to. I don't think he had many chances on goal, did he? I don't one or two over the bar. I mean, there wasn't, wasn't a lot from him.
Hunt: How much credit for that do you give to Southgate?
Lowe: Yeah, I mean of course because his, he obviously had to have a game player and bae and it worked. Problem was that sort of forgot about Olivier Giroud.
[LAUGHS]
Lowe: Yeah, I think you gotta give him credit for that. Of course. He kept the, we, he, they kept the best player in the world quiet. He did not look like the best player in the world today. And that's actually more frustrating because if he'd gone out there and scored a hat trick Brendan and he's the best player in the world and we couldn't handle him, then I'm, you know what, hands up fine, fair enough. And Mbappé wins it for them, no problem, I can handle that. But he didn't look like the best player in the world and we were the better team. So, I'm really struggling to handle that. Anyway, there was one other moment I wanted to bring up in the second half, midway through when it was one, one and I thought England looked the better team. We were entering that period there where we were really looking strong and I thought, we've gotta now score a second and make these chances and make this possession and make this pressure count. There was a moment on 62 when Phil Foden picked the ball up and ran at France. And I was like, yes, Phil, that is what we need to be doing. That is the confidence we would need to be seeing. And it was a lovely moment. And I mean I, you know, it all came to nothing in the end. But again, in that 20 minute period there were more fouls on Saka and I, all I'd written down was "this ref!", I just wrote "this ref." And then Maguire grazed the post with that header, which was a really good header actually.
Hunt, Narrating: His very redemption grazed the post. I know it would've been such a glorious moment. I mean sometimes he becomes an object of mockery because of his own decisions, but sometimes it's like he's a bad luck sponge. And when that shot grazed the post and then when Giroud's goal upon further review grazed off Maguire -- not his fault, not at all. But when you're already a punching bag, yeah, people find their opportunities. It was like, oh man. Now if, if the tournament has won done one thing, it is, it has moved Harry Maguire from the mockery category to the mild pity category, in my heart, he had a fine, fine tournament.
Lowe, Narrating: He did. And I think it'll be really interesting to see when he gets back to Manchester United if he starts. I think that's gonna be really, really interesting. Because he couldn't get a game really, could he? when everybody was fit at Manchester United.
Hunt: Well, maybe, maybe Ten Hag watches the World Cup and like when, when Harry gets back, he'll introduce him himself.
Lowe: That would be nice. That would be nice. By the way, that reminds me the hope the whole way through the game, every time you saw a shot of Pickford, all I could think about was Roy Kent. All I could think about was Brett just like, “Why am I here?” I just kept laughing. The only thing that was giving me any joy was, Brett's Bonne nuit and Mbappé and Pickford getting angry. That was just, that was brilliant. So yeah, so then Pickford saves from Giroud and that was the warning. And then he and then he got the second. And, I think we're about up, aren't we for time now?
[LAUGHS]
Hunt, Narrating: Well, sadly today spot, sadly we have certain contractual obligations and we must continue this. Can I say what makes me the angriest about the penalty shot before we even get to the Harry Kane part? There's two things make me angry and this'll be a bit, a bit of a repeat of the theme of some stuff we talked about yesterday with the referee in the Holland, Argentina game. So first of all, Mr. Wilton Sampaio, I've rarely seen a clear penalty in my life. Are you fucking kidding me? That you do not call that or even do not look to your linesmen to see what they saw.
Lowe: I know.
Hunt: What a fucking joke.
Lowe: Or what about when you go to the screen, Brendan? How long does he want to take?
Ah yeah, over and over again. And this point, it, it very much seems like, well I am not very often wrong. So if I'm wrong this time, yeah, I'm only a little bit wrong, which is why I will allow the penalty, but even though just by calling the penalty of the last defender, bringing down a player in an attacking position, though the rules clearly state I have no other option but to give this player a red card, I will just give a yellow because I'm only slightly wrong. Not a hundred percent wrong.
Lowe: Spot on
Hunt: Wilton Sampaio, I don't know if you are a coward, but I know you behaved in a cowardly fashion. That sucked.
Lowe: Correct. I mean what also the, sorry, I'm just getting, I'm just getting angry now.
Hunt: Let it out! Let it out!
Lowe, Narrating: We're in the process phase. [SINGING] Let it out. So, when he went to the screen, right, first of all because you can see him go to the screen so you can see what you're seeing. So, I can see the very first angle he got was the best angle. It was the most blatant angle. I'm quite sure why he's still there for angle number six. No, nobody knows because he's trying to work out if he really does wanna be wrong or shall I, how am I gonna get away with this? Will I get fined having a whole conversation with himself while he is at that screen? Or angle number six of the most blatant penalty of all time in a World Cup? Right? Then he actually makes the right call in the penalty. But like you say, then he wasn't actually gonna give him a card at all. It was only, and I’m not a lot of huge fan of players going up to ref, but Bellingham, and I think it was Rice saying to him, uh, mate? And Mount I think as well, any danger of a card at all as in a red card because they are the rules. Oh, oh, oh. He’s like, “oh, oh, whoops. Hang on, let me just get a card. Yeah, yellow, it'll be a yellow. Cause it'll be a little bit too dramatic if I'm that wrong.” So, like you said, Brendan gives him a yellow, you're like, why are you giving him a yellow? That's not what, what?
Hunt, Narrating: Yeah, even giving him a yellow is worse than giving him nothing because giving him a yellow acknowledges that you're supposed to give him a card there. Like if you just completely whiff on that, that's one thing. But you know, you're supposed to give him a card and you give him a yellow dude, dude, never, never, ever come to a, an international tournament again. That is, that is absolutely a fireable offense forever.
Lowe: Please never, please never. Before that, just on the substitutions, you know, I know, I know it's very easy for me to say, but I did write it down the time, Mount, Sterling on, why did he take Saka off? Question mark. And then in very large writing, greenish question mark. Rashford question mark. In my opinion, he got two wrong. He put on Mount, Sterling. Sterling's been absent for a number of days and Mount…
Hunt: Ridiculous call
Lowe: He’s a good player but… Thank you. Okay, good. I'm just checking. That's not just me being mean. I'm not trying to be mean to Gareth. I love Gareth. I feel for Gareth tonight, but Grealish and Rashford should have been the two that he puts on. Okay. I know Mount won the penalty, but t that's actually another here, nor is it there. Do you want to talk about the penalty that Kane took? mean, should I be angry at him more than I am because I just love Harry and everything he stands for and everything that he is. Or should I be, and maybe I'll become that because I am definitely going through stages as here live we record. Would you be angry at Kane for that?
Hunt: I don't think you can be angry at Kane for all he's done to England up to this point. And…
Lowe: Agree.
Hunt, Narrating: It's, it's just a shocker. It's an absolute shock of a penalty. I mean, I think the energy that would go into the anger just can just go straight into the grief. It was shocking when he went down to reset the ball after already being in place to reset ball…
Lowe: On the first penalty.
Hunt: Oh, was it only on the first one?
Lowe, Narrating: That was on the first penalty? He went to reset the ball and then do his socks on the first penalty. And I thought, uh oh that, is he nervous? Why is he reset the ball? I wouldn't do that. Oh my God. But then he smashed it home. Second penalty. I looked for him to do it. He didn't do it Brendan.
Hunt, Narrating: Well, when he missed it, then England started to look like, you know, the deflated England…
Lowe: Ragged.
And it's not like they quit or anything, but it just wasn't, it wasn't quite the same. And I think they were just carrying the fucking shock of Harry Kay's skying a penalty, for England. That was, it was a shocking, shocking moment.
Lowe, Narrating: Yeah, it was, it was shocking. And then you see Grealish coming on the 98th minute and I just wanted to cry. Yeah. I'm like, you can’t put him on the 98th minute, come on, you've gotta give the guy, he's a game changer some time. You, you, you just, you just can't do that.
[LAUGHS]
Lowe: I may well say this every two years, but this time I really mean it. Brendan, I am officially done when it comes to hope with England. I may not watch Euro 2024, I may not watch the World Cup in 2026. This heart is gonna take some time to heal and it really hurts right now.
Hunt: That's the pain talking Rebecca, you'll come around.
Lowe: And soon it'll be the wine talking. Okay, I think I've had enough now of England.
[LAUGHS]
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
Lowe: Shall we talk Morocco, Portugal?
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Hunt, Narrating: Yes, we shall. Earlier today, the first quarterfinal match, World Cup history was as Morocco defeated Portugal one, nothing to become the first African team in the history of the World Cup to make it to the semi-finals. We have talked on the show about how hard it is to make a semi- final, especially if you've never made a semi-final before. This is a massive, massive achievement and huge kudos to Morocco and to African football in general. And now Morocco gets to play their colonizer, France, we'll get to that. But Morocco, Portugal, Ronaldo again, does not start but I don't know that he would've made a difference, because Portugal never looked to be in it.
Lowe, Narrating: They didn't. And you know, you, you thought Morocco would win in the last round and not many did. And you were right. And then we both did think Portugal because we just thought, you know, that's normally what happens in a World Cup. Normally the underdog goes only so far, and then are knocked out. It was brilliant. I wanted Morocco to go through. I wanna talk about Morocco, but I have to talk about the end when of course the camera's gonna go to Ronaldo. I'm glad we did get a lot of Morocco scenes because they were great. But we did keep going back to Ronaldo. And then I, I'm not gonna lie, for better or worse I was looking for whether Ronaldo had left the field. And when we got the shot of him walking down the tunnel crying, have some grace mate have, have some class. All right, I know all the things about what's happened to you, but my goodness, have you had a career full of highs and you are facing a team of players who have never felt what they're feeling on a football pitch or probably ever in their life right now. And you walk off in the face of them. You don't have the grace and the humility and the decency and the humanity. Sorry but you don't, to go and congratulate them. You walk off, you know, the camera's on you and then you cry down the tunnel. Grow up.
Hunt: Especially when Portugal has to make a minor scene whenever he comes on of Pepe, a veteran central defender and, you know, often pantomime villain. But giving Ronaldo the captain's armband. Pepe is not coming off. He's just giving the captain's armband to Ronaldo. And surely Ronaldo from everything we know about him, only wants it because it means status or something. If he takes that armband, he does not appear to be then assuming the mantle of leadership, because he does not have that in him. And that final moment's a great example.
Lowe: Well, you have to just compare it to Harry Kane, right? England captain misses a penalty today. If he had left that field of play major and gone down the tunnel crown, I'd have been so mad at him then I actually would've been mad at him because that's not what you do as a footballer, as a sportsman. Kane would never do it. Very, very few. I can't think of anybody who would do what Ronaldo did. Just take it back to Morocco for a second. A shout out to the great Peter Drury, who is our commentator, our lead commentator on NBC's coverage of the Premier League, who is the lead commentator for the World Feed. Let me just read you, and obviously this is Peter Drury saying this, so I won't do this in any way justice, but he said this at the final whistle: "Drink it in, Casablanca. Relish it, Rabat, this is your night. See it from atop the Atlas Mountains, all above the Marrakesh Express. A night Morocco will never forget." I mean, that's what commentary's about right there. The glorious Peter Drury, he is a magic man. And I just love moments like that where the commentary sends you double chills on top of what the football's already done to you. He's magic that man.
Hunt: Shout out to Morocco's coach Walid Regragui, who became coach exactly, three months and 10 days ago. He had never ever coached international football before. He's coached at the club level. He had 45 caps for Morocco. So it's not like he, just got picked up off the street. But this was a team in turmoil. They hated their coach. Ziyech was frozen out, Boufal was frozen out, you know, they had no intention playing for Morocco while the previous coach was there. And my man guides them to their first semi-final, the first African country to make it to the semi-final. That is staggering. That is a sports movie achievement.
Lowe: A hundred percent agree.
Because to bring home the point we were making about semi the other day, there's basically never an upset win for the World Cup. I think the closest to one would be France in 98 because they hadn't won them before. But they were a very good team. They had done well at the Euros two years previous, and they were the host. So even that, not a shock. West Germany in 1954, I guess a bit of a shock because, you know, they had never won at that point and they were going up against Hungary who were the, the widely held best team in the world. I can't think of a single other shock World Cup winner. And now here they are, the doorstep.
Lowe, Narrating: And now Brendan, and we have a 50% chance of it happening because if Croatia win the World Cup or Morocco win the World Cup, both are underdogs. Both, no one had to win this World Cup. If France or Argentina win it -- okay, fair enough. But suddenly we might have history upon us, like you say. Happens in the euros, has happened in the Euros, doesn't happen in the World Cup could happen and I'm here for it. Morocco win the World Cup, beat France.
[LAUGHS]
Hunt: I would say Croatia and Morocco are in different categories.
Lowe: Yeah, they're a hundred percent, but if you're looking at it as a four, they're three and four.
Yeah. They, they are definitely underdogs and they would be a new winner, which is its own category that that happens very rarely. We haven't had that since 2010.
Lowe: Would you rather Messi lift the World Cup or Morocco?
Hmm. I guess I want Messi to do it and it's partially because he's earned it. I hate certain sports media tropes and one of them that I find the most tiring because every single one of these people who uses this cudgel against whatever athlete, whatever sport knows damn well that these are team sports. But the cudgel of like, well, if he was really the best, he would've won the big one…
Lowe: It's rubbish.
Hunt: Which gets used in baseball and football against some of the greatest players of all time.
Lowe: So that would shut them up. That would shut them up.
Yeah. I would like that to be shut up. I mean, he's won, he's won the lot as we all well know. And now he has his international trophy with Argentina already. I'd like people getting dumb shit shoved back in their face and I consider that entire line of, of argument to be dumb shit.
Lowe, Narrating: Okay. I'd like Morocco to win just because I love an underdog. I love Messi and the purity of it.
Hunt: Not gonna mind it.
Lowe: But I mean can you imagine? That would be amazing. A-ma-zing.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Hunt, Narrating: We're gonna take the remainder of this podcast to pay our respects to the Great Grant Wahl, the American soccer journalist, of incredible renowned and esteem, to, both readers and fellow media alike around the world. He passed yesterday at the age of 48, while he was in Qatar covering the Argentina, Netherlands quarterfinal. This is just an absolute shock to so many people, and a, and a massive, massive loss to not only the American soccer community, but the world football community.
Lowe, Narrating: And Brendan, the tributes, of course, that have been coming in over the last 24 hours or so, as you say, the world's soccer community have been from so many different countries because Grant knew so many people. Because he was the foremost football journalist in the United States, respected across men's football, women's football, major league soccer, international game, whatever it was to do with football. He was right at the front. He has been the leader, there is no doubt, in American football, soccer, journalism, and did more to spread the word about this beautiful game than probably anyone else over that period of time in this country. And I’ll borrow something that Roger Bennett, our friend from the “Men in Blazers,” said last night on stage in LA when they just heard the news and him and Michael Davis were, were paying tribute to Grant. And Roger said what he found so amazing about Grant was just that he was such a pioneer, because when Roger first met him, he was like, “you can do that in America? You can be a full-time football journalist? Wow, you are the first.” And of course, there are many now, but there has to be the first, and Grant was the first. And to die doing the job he loved, is almost poignant. In 2026, he would have been so proud and he would have led from the front where the press contingent are concerned and that World Cup coming in 2026 probably has a lot to do with Grant Wahl actually and the way that he worked in this game. So, we paid tribute to him and to his work and to his impacts. And did you see today that they had a picture of him and some flowers in the press box where he would've been, I think, at the England, France game? He certainly won't be forgotten. He has touched so many people's lives.
Hunt: Before I was particularly into soccer, I was an avid “Sports Illustrated” reader, especially in 1998 when the Chicago Bulls were going for their sixth title. And they were on the cover every week and get to win issue. And, oh, there's a World Cup preview. Oh, I guess the World Cup is starting. Who knew? And I remember reading that for some reason, don't know why. And reading this whole long article of group by group -- what the writer thought was gonna happen, and then the writer predicting France to win. Now this stood out for me because like as of 1998, especially before Tony Parker, I couldn't name a single French athlete. Like athletics was not a word. I connected to France in any way, shape or form, because we didn't know about Michel Platini and Just Fontaine, et cetera, et cetera. So I was like, what? France? And then France, of course, do go ahead and win the whole tournament. And that was one of the first columns at “SI” by Grant Wahl. And I think why I kept coming back to him, especially as, as a new fan, was that he was always aware that he was going to be speaking to a certain percentage of his audience that was new to the sport. And that is a challenge, I think, when, you know, a sport at such a granular level to remember your wider audience, but then to also still be speaking about it to the height of your intelligence. That is a very unique skill he was able to manifest and deploy. Just an excellent, excellent writer.
Lowe: Yeah, it's a very difficult balance that it's a very difficult balance to ensure that you're bringing new people in whilst not talking down to those who already know what you are, what you are explaining. But the hole is gonna be gigantic. The hole is gonna be gigantic as the World Cup comes to an end and everybody goes back to their respective leagues. And Major League Soccer kicks off again in, in February on “Apple TV,” of course, with a new broadcast partner and no Grant Wahl, that's gonna be glaring.
Hunt: He, would rep MLS, he would rep, NWSL ,the Women's World Cup, of course. among the many tributes that have come out, the women's soccer population in the States has been particularly, ardent in their tributes. He, gosh, he was just such a heck of a guy. These tributes coming through, I just wanna highlight a couple. One, Jesse Marsch was spoken to by “Time Magazine”. Now Jesse went to Princeton, as did Grant, so they knew each other back then. Here's what he said, “he always covered the game with a conscience. He tried to talk about the women's game as much as he talked about the men. He talked about the important topics like the fight for LGBTQ rights up until his death. He was aware that it's a global game and knew how important it's treated as such. He did it with a heart. He did it with integrity, he did it the right way.” And, according to “Time,” this is through tears. I also wanna point out another tweet from, Nikki McCann Ramirez, who's a political reporter for “Rolling Stone,” “Sports Illustrated fired him for challenging their pay cuts during the pandemic. He once ran to unseat FIFA's president. He challenged human rights abuses in Qatar. RIP Grant Wahl, whose career was as much about great reporting as it was about speaking truth to abuse of power.” It's just a massive, massive loss.
Which is why the whole is so big, because he was so dynamic, you know, he just wasn't just a journalist, just a rioter that he stood for so much and he lived his life through those values. And the tributes so many, my goodness, so many people who have been touched by him, he's just so kind, so supportive of everyone and e every part, of this game. And it will be a much worse place now without him.
Hunt, Narrating: There's a storyline coming up in “Ted Lasso” season three that we needed the knowledge of, of an expert for. And so, I reached out to Grant and, you know, with just like a couple questions, uh, he responded with a incredibly generously long and detailed email answering all these questions I had about, you know, topics that everyone spoiled for you. And it was so incredibly, incredibly helpful. And, you know, someone who had been reading for years by then, we'd been on his podcast once. So, I, you know, I, I had some degree of introduction, but still never met the man. But that's something I won't forget. And then he came to London for the England US Women's Match the Euro Champions versus World Champions Friendly. That was only two months ago. And, we were checking in, we were hoping to see each other at the game. That wasn't possible. But then the next day he was, he, you know, he had an afternoon flight, so I was like, okay, well if you're not a Heathrow, just swing by Richmond. So, you know, he came by my place and, you know, I gave him the sort of Richmond tour to give people -- the beautiful views and welcome through all the, all the Ted lasso stuff. And then we just went back to my house, and we sat in my kitchen. You know, he's sitting right there across my table, perfectly healthy. You know, he meets my son, he meets my partner. And we just talk about soccer and football. And he knows soccer at such a granular level. And like, I never played the game. So, I get a degree of imposter syndrome sometimes when I'm talking to people like this. And with him, it was just, just completely, completely effortless. You know? It was, it was the kindness that you're, that you're, that you're hearing from people in these tributes, the goodheartedness, the groundedness, just an all-around good guy. I just really appreciate that I got even that much time with them.
Lowe: Yeah, well said Brendan. And it must be excruciating for his wife, Dr. Gander and his brother, and his extended family and friends. I cannot even begin to imagine their pain. And if we take anything away, it's, you know, tomorrow's not guaranteed. Let's just try, try, it's hard enough. Try to live in the present, but we have to try for him.
Hunt: We'll miss you Grant. Folks, thank you for listening, no bits and bobs today. We will see you Tuesday, after semi-final number one, Argentina versus Croatia. Till then be well.