WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.000 [UPBEAT MUSIC] 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:02.000 Hey there, it's Shumita here. Every so often, we're gonna recommend a show that we think is worth your time. This week, I want to tell you about a new series on the "Times" podcast by the "L.A. Times." It's all about the Colorado River, a lifeline in danger for thousands of people from Colorado to Mexico. But this isn't a typical climate change story, it's a crisis unfolding in real time with native tribes, homeowners and entire states all jockeying for control. Listen and subscribe at latimes.com/thetimes or on Apple Podcasts. 00:00:02.000 --> 00:00:03.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:04.000 [MUSIC FADES IN] 00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:05.000 This is "In Conversation," from Apple News. I'm Shumita Basu. Today, how the NFL has failed Black coaches and what the league needs to do to change. 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:06.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:07.000 [TENSE MUSIC] 00:00:07.000 --> 00:00:08.000 Last weekend marked the end of the NFL regular season, and it's around this time of year that we usually see a lot of coach firings. 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:09.000 In fact, it was just about a year ago when Brian Flores was fired from his job as head coach of the Miami Dolphins. This was after back-to-back winning seasons, something that hadn't happened in Miami in nearly two decades. But getting fired is par for the course in head coaching roles across sports, so Flores went out and started interviewing for new head coaching jobs. 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:10.000 And he was getting ready to have an interview with the New York Giants. 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:11.000 That's "Washington Post" sports reporter Michael Lee. 00:00:11.000 --> 00:00:12.000 And just as he was preparing to leave for that interview he got a text message from his former boss, Bill Belichick, the famed New England Patriots coach, basically telling him that, you know, Brian, you got it. And he was like, "Which Brian?" 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:13.000 Yep, Belichick was messaging the wrong Brian. He meant to text Brian Daboll, the offensive coordinator for the Buffalo Bills. It was through this text exchange that Flores learned the Giants had already made their hiring decision. 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:14.000 Now, it's important to note here that Brian Daboll is white, and Brian Flores is Black. And Flores says this is what gave him the impression that his interview was just to check a box, to satisfy one of the hiring rules at the NFL that requires teams to interview minority candidates. 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:15.000 And he was fed up. And he just said, Enough of this. I'm not gonna play the game anymore. I'm 40 years old, I'm young, I have a chance to have a long career, but I don't wanna be a part of a system if it's gonna be this way. And so he filed a lawsuit against the NFL, shook the entire league and basically just said enough. 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:16.000 Flores is accusing the NFL and three of its teams of racial discrimination. Two other coaches have joined his lawsuit. This ongoing legal battle is shining a light on an issue that has existed in the NFL for decades. It's the reason that hiring rule was created in the first place. This season, close to 60% of the players were Black, but for coaches, that number was only 9%. 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:17.000 Black coaches have been frustrated for a number of years about the lack of opportunities that they've received from the NFL, from owners, to reach the ultimate position of becoming a head coach. 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:18.000 Michael Lee and his team at "The Washington Post" decided to take a deep dive into this issue for a series they're calling "Black Out." They looked at decades of data and interviewed former and current Black NFL coaches, as well as former players, executives and agents. The numbers tell a clear story, but it's the personal accounts that fill in all of the emotional gaps, the disappointments, the frustrations. I asked Michael to lay it all out: what's keeping qualified Black coaches from getting these top jobs, and what can the NFL do about it? 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:19.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:20.000 It's really hard to become a head coach in the NFL. I mean, there are only 32 jobs. You know, historically there have only been 26 Black coaches in NFL history for… In the 103-year history at a league, you know, so… [LAUGHS] 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:21.000 Right. Ever. 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:22.000 Yeah, ever. Black coaches and white coaches essentially perform at the same level, but Black coaches usually take a much longer time to get an opportunity. Usually they work nine more years than a white assistant before they get a chance to become a head coach. And then when they get that opportunity, they're on a much shorter leash and they are getting fired at an unfair rate. A Black coach who wins nine games has just as much chance of being fired as a white coach who wins six. So nine games is a winning season, but if you win six and you get fired at the same rate. It's like, well, what standard do I have to meet to maintain employment? 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:23.000 Yeah. And is it different than everyone else's standard? 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:24.000 Yeah. There were five Black coaches hired between 2017 and 2021. None of 'em made it through that entire time. Two of 'em were fired after two years, one of 'em was fired after one year. You can't build anything in a year, you can't build much in two years. So you're being held to a different standard, you're not getting opportunities at all or it'll take you a much longer time to get one, and then when you do get it, are you really given a fair shot? One classic example was David Culley, who wound up being an assistant coach for 42 years in college and the pros, 27 years in the pros. He finally got his breakthrough at a time where most people are retiring, in his sixties, and he was fired after one year. He was fired after one year. He spent 42 years coaching, you know, hoping that maybe one day he'll get a chance to become a head coach. He finally got it in his sixties. [LAUGHS] And in a very difficult situation in Houston where his quarterback, Deshaun Watson, was basically sidelined for the year because of a legal issue. He didn't have his top quarterback. They won four games, which in a lot of ways they overachieved considering all the circumstances they were under, and he got booted. How could he build anything in that time without a quarterback and without any type of structure? 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:25.000 [GENTLE ELECTRONIC MUSIC] 00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:26.000 David Culley was ultimately replaced by Lovie Smith, another Black coach with a long history in the NFL. But the day after the NFL's 2022 regular season ended, Smith was fired from his job as head coach of the Houston Texans. That makes Smith the second Black coach in two years to be let go by the Texans. 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:27.000 Since 1990, 154 white men have served as an NFL head coach. By comparison, in the same time, only twenty Black men have. Seven of those white men were hired without having coached in the league before. That's something no Black coach has ever done. Here's what Marvin Lewis, who was the head coach of the Cincinnati Bengals for 16 seasons, told "The Washington Post." 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:28.000 [START THE WASHINGTON POST ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:29.000 I was 22 years in coaching before I got to be the head coach. And I coached 11 years in college before the 11 years in the NFL. That's what some of the people don't understand. There's a lot of people, they're getting the opportunity to skip some steps along the way and we didn't get that opportunity very often, if any. 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:30.000 [END THE WASHINGTON POST ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:31.000 Another coach "The Post" talked to was Hall of Famer Tony Dungy. He served as a head coach for 13 seasons with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the Indianapolis Colts. He led the Colts to the Super Bowl in 2007, becoming the first Black head coach to ever claim a Super Bowl victory. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:32.000 [START THE WASHINGTON POST ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:33.000 Minority coaches are frustrated today and more so than maybe any time that I've ever seen. We're switching jobs a lot, half the league turns over every three years it seems like. And it doesn't seem to matter what criteria we're looking at, it just hasn't been reflected in the hiring process. And that's the disappointing thing, I think, to so many coaches right now. "What is the process? All this hard work that I'm putting in, I'm ready to go. Am I gonna get the opportunity?" 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:34.000 [END THE WASHINGTON POST ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:35.000 Back in 2003, the NFL tried to address these concerns by putting in place something called the Rooney Rule. That's the rule I mentioned earlier. When it was first implemented, it required NFL teams looking for a new head coach to interview at least one minority candidate. 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:36.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:37.000 And there actually appeared to be progress through the first decade of the Rooney Rule. Within five years of its creation, you had a Super Bowl featuring Lovie Smith and Tony Dungy. It was the first time not only one Black coach made a Super Bowl, but two, and they faced each other. And a week before that Super Bowl a young hot assistant by the name of Mike Tomlin was hired by the Pittsburgh Steelers. By 2011 there were seven Black coaches. So you went from one to seven within a matter of ten years. And everyone was feeling really good about what was happening, and they felt like, you know, maybe the floodgates won't open, but at least owners are trying to do something new and giving opportunities and they were being rewarded for it. I mean, these coaches are guiding teams to the playoffs and into the Super Bowl. And so they were having success. By the end of that season, there were ten Black coaches in the NFL, which it's never been higher than that. And so you gotta start feeling like, "Okay, we're making progress here." 00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:38.000 Yeah. Yeah. 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:39.000 But to go all the way back down to where you have one coach within eleven years and that's Mike Tomlin, that's where you have an issue. And that was deflating. 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:40.000 So what went wrong with the Rooney Rule? Is it just one of those things that wasn't enforced or tracked? As far as I understand, there's only one team that was ever formally found to have violated the Rooney Rule, right? The Detroit Lions back in 2003. 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:41.000 Yeah, there's been no enforcement of it. But I also think that there hasn't been a true examination for owners of what the value of the Rooney Rule is. We talked to Tony Dungy about it, and one of the things he said about the Rooney Rule, that sort of it's been misconstrued, that it's not just that you interview a minority coach, it's that you come up with a philosophy for your organization and figure out what your brand is going to be as a football team. And as you come up with that concept of what kind of team you want to be, then you interview a minority candidate who might be able to fit that brand. And so if you eliminate the first step and then just say, "Oh man, we gotta interview a minority candidate," or "We gotta interview two minority candidates," then it changes your mindset about what it is you're trying to do. And if you don't embrace it, if you don't embrace what you can gain by trying something new, or by just engaging with someone who's different than you, then you're gonna wind up losing anyway. And so is everyone else who's coming up. And I think that's what's lacking. And that's why the Rooney rule has failed because owners have viewed it more as an obligation and less as an opportunity for engagement. 00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:42.000 [SLOW MUSIC] 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:43.000 Here's what Tony Dungy told "The Washington Post" about his experience going through the hiring process. 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:44.000 [START THE WASHINGTON POST ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:45.000 If you just interview a minority candidate, "Hey, I'm really looking for a young defensive coach, but I'm gonna interview this offensive coordinator of the Super Bowl team." I had an interview like that. I was the defensive coordinator of the Steelers. General manager told me, "Hey, you know, you did a great job. Do you have any questions?" And I said, "Sure, I'd like to know what you're looking for." And he said, "Well, we're really looking for an offensive coach and we're looking for somebody who's had head coaching experience." I was a defensive coach who had never been a head coach. And I'm like, why are you interviewing me then, if that's really what you're looking for? 00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:46.000 [END THE WASHINGTON POST ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:47.000 Other Black coaches also told "The Post" they've almost come to resent the Rooney Rule. Here's Tampa Bay Buccaneers head coach Todd Bowles. 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:48.000 [START THE WASHINGTON POST ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:49.000 I think initially it started out great. It got people in front of owners and got them to see us in a football light. I think it got watered down a little bit when we just started taking certain interviews just to be taking certain interviews and picking guys to pick guys. 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:50.000 [END THE WASHINGTON POST ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:51.000 Anthony Lynn, the former coach of the Los Angeles Chargers, said he interviewed with six franchises before landing that role. 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:52.000 [START THE WASHINGTON POST ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:53.000 I was offered more opportunities to interview, but I would not go and interview with an organization that had not already interviewed a minority, because I did not want to be a token interview. And so, when I interviewed with the Chargers, I knew it was real and, you know, it was a good interview and I got the job. 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:54.000 [END THE WASHINGTON POST ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:55.000 This idea of token representation in interviews is central to Brian Flores' lawsuit against the league. And he says it happened to him more than once. 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:56.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:57.000 Well, he first didn't think that Denver Broncos were serious about their interview. He alleged their general manager or the president John Elway appeared [LAUGHS] to not be totally into it. He may have been inebriated, he alleged. He also alleged that the Giants, again, had already known who they were gonna hire before they placed the interview. And he alleged, which was proven by the league, his owner in Miami, Steven Ross, was trying to provide incentives for him to lose games. Which just goes against the entire integrity of the league. And it also would be a huge blotch on his career if he accepted that and decided to just take money for losses when as competitors, like, that's just unacceptable. 00:00:57.000 --> 00:00:58.000 Denver Broncos executive John Elway has responded to Flores' allegations calling them "false and defamatory." 00:00:58.000 --> 00:00:59.000 The league has acknowledged its failure to hire Black coaches in the past, but it's also pointed out that the league doesn't do the hiring. At the end of the day, it's the team owners who decide who to hire, who to fire. 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:00.000 And also determining who's gonna be the face of these organizations. 'Cause these are multi-billion dollar enterprises. You're selling a product at the end of the day, you know. You gotta have… Your fan base has to trust that you're making the right decisions and that they can trust that man who's gonna be, every Sunday, explaining why they won and why they lost. They have to get behind that coach. 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:01.000 Yeah. And where does the NFL commissioner fall into this structure? 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:02.000 Well, he has to take the hits, he has to take the public hits, because the owners, rarely you're gonna step out and publicly speak on this topic. But Roger Goodell will have to. So I think that Goodell, every hiring cycle, you know, every Super Bowl he's speaking about how, "Well, I've told the owners that this is important for us, and this is a big deal for the NFL." And I think the NFL is doing… They've established programs, they've established, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion officers at a lot of these teams and within their own offices to sort of make it clear to owners and to every executive that this is a priority for us. But until you actually see people hiring [LAUGHS], you can question whether that's a sincere approach. 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:03.000 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess to that point, help us read between the lines here. Like, where does the buck really stop with these kinds of decisions, hiring and firing? 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:04.000 I mean, it is on the owners. Goodell can provide, you know, certain incentives. You know, I think that if an organization can develop a minority coach to become a head coach, they get draft picks as compensation. I think that Goodell was trying to use another extreme to provide draft picks to someone who hires a Black coach, which to Black coaches is very offensive. Like, you should wanna hire me because I'm good, because I'm the best person for the job, not because you're gonna get some gifts in return. And I think that's where a lot of coaches are offended by some of the efforts by the league, because you're basically paying them to be a part of this and not punishing them for not really doing what they should be doing. 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:05.000 [PULSING MUSIC] 00:01:05.000 --> 00:01:06.000 The NFL declined to make Commissioner Roger Goodell available to "The Post" for an interview. "The Post" also requested interviews with the owners of all 32 teams. Only one agreed to be interviewed before the investigation was published, the Pittsburgh Steelers' Art Rooney II. The Rooney Rule is named after his dad, Dan Rooney. 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:07.000 In addition to owning the Steelers, Art Rooney also chairs the NFL's workplace diversity committee. He told "The Post" that the league is making a collective effort to address this problem, and that he agrees the Rooney Rule, by itself, is not an effective diversity policy. 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:08.000 Bills co-owner Kim Pegula, who is Asian American, and Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shahid Khan, who is Pakistani American. There has never been a Black majority owner. 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:09.000 You know, one of the key complaints from coaches around the league is that, you know, the owners don't necessarily see them as leaders. They don't see a Black person as a leader because they haven't come across any Black authority figures at any point in their lives. They didn't have a Black teacher, they didn't have a Black coach, they didn't have a Black principal at their school. They didn't have anything where they could say, "Oh yes, I understand this Black person in their leadership style." So for the most part, when it comes to like an owner and what they perceive as what a leader is, it doesn't look like a Black person. And so when they come in these rooms and they have these interviews, you always hear these, "Well, he didn't interview well," or "He didn't look the part." 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:10.000 Another reason for the lack of Black head coaches that Michael pointed to was mentorship. When you don't have many people who look like you, charting the path forward, helping you navigate the pipeline, it's harder to make it happen. 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:11.000 Jim Caldwell, who has served as head coach for the Indianapolis Colts and the Detroit Lions, told "The Post" how hard it was to have a vision for his career that other people didn't seem to see. 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:12.000 [START THE WASHINGTON POST ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:13.000 Once I made that determination that I thought I could be a head coach, I started working at it. So what I would do is at nighttime after we finished the day, I would take the practice schedule, I'd take our schedule for the daily schedule, and I'd look at it and I'd write notes on it, "Hey, this is something I'd change if I was a head coach," or "I really do like this." And there was one guy who had been, I think, crowned as the hardest working guy on the staff. He came to my office and he, you know, stomped into my office and came over and says, "What are you working on?" "Well, I'm taking notes on the day." He said, "For what?" I said, "Well…" I said, "I'm gonna be a head football coach one day." And he looked at me and says, "That'll never happen in my lifetime or yours." 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:14.000 [END THE WASHINGTON POST ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:15.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:16.000 One name kept coming up, in the interviews for this project, as a person who's done so much to mentor up-and-coming Black talent. We've brought him up a few times already, Tony Dungy. 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:17.000 [START THE WASHINGTON POST ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:18.000 I think I always felt a kind of a need to win for everyone and to give other African American coaches a chance to be successful. I got hired in 1996. Denny Green was in Minnesota. Ray Rose was in Philadelphia. Art Shell was with the Raiders. It wasn't as if, okay, if I don't win, no other Black coaches are gonna get a chance. But I knew if I had success, that that would open the door for people. So you feel that little extra weight. 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:19.000 [END THE WASHINGTON POST ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:20.000 Tony Dungy is probably one of the more amazing stories in the sense that when he was hired by the Tampa Bay Buckers in 1996, he knew that it was a big opportunity. Because at the time, he was just the fourth Black coach to be hired, you know, in the modern era. So you had Art Shell, you had Denny Green, and you had Ray Rhode, and then you had Tony Dungy. So he came in in 1996, but he wasn't just going there to say, okay, I gotta go here and win games and try to, you know, elevate the status of Black coaches by my success. He went there and said, not only am I coming, but hey, Herman Edwards, I think you have what it takes to be a head coach. I'm gonna make you my associate head coach, and I'm gonna show you what it's gonna take so that your next job, you're gonna be a head coach. And I'm gonna find the best talent I can around the country, I'm gonna have a really diverse staff, and I'm gonna provide opportunities for them to see that there is an avenue, that there's a pathway, to where they can be just like me. And I thought it was just an amazing approach and attitude to have. So from '96 to now, there have been 16 Black coaches hired, 17 now with Steve Wilkes, and eight of them, half of them, have some connection to Tony Dungy, either as a direct assistant or someone who coached for one of his assistants. 00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:21.000 We haven't talked yet about the role of one important group in this equation: the fans. Michael says, they might have a surprising amount of power here, to demand what they want to see in the league. 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:22.000 I think that really it's just gonna require a level of public shaming and accountability to sort of force owners' hands. Because right now [LAUGHS] there's no incentive to make any change. You know, fans will… Yeah, they'll talk a lot of noise about how they're not gonna watch the games, but you know what, these ratings numbers are telling me something else. [LAUGHS] They're telling me these are people who still love football and they'll take it in whatever form they can get. And so they're not gonna walk away from the game, but there are some things that I think can be done to sort of force the owner's hands. Like, you look at the Washington Commanders. You know, for years they had the R-word nickname and everyone was in an uproar saying, "You gotta change the name! You gotta change the name." The name wasn't changed until there was a financial hit, until sponsors started to say we can't support this name anymore and we can't support your product as long as you have this name. And so then once there's some incentive to make the change, then all of a sudden it happens. 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:23.000 Yeah. I mean you're talking about something really difficult here, right? Which is waiting for change to happen organically versus forcing it to happen. And I think for a lot of people, that's a hard pill to swallow, right? Why should we wait for things to change organically? Do we have good signs that anything will change 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:24.000 if left to their own devices? 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:25.000 No, because you've had a hundred years to [LAUGHS] get it right and you haven't really been trying- 00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:26.000 Right, exactly! 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:27.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:28.000 Yeah. I mean, to that point, I mean actually that kind of takes me all the way back around to Brian Flores' lawsuit, right? This is an example of forcing change, trying to force change through legal means. Like, what could be the impact of the outcome of this lawsuit on the NFL? 00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:29.000 So 20 years ago, Cyrus Mary and Johnny Cochran, the attorney from OJ Simpson, threatened to sue the NFL to improve its hiring practices. The one thing they lacked and the reason why they couldn't go forward with it, they didn't have a plaintiff. They didn't have anybody on board to say, "I'm gonna put my career on the line to sue the NFL and take the NFL down." Brian Flores is ready. The minute he found out that the Giants, you know, were about to have him in an interview that he didn't think it was legit, he was like, "We're going." Boom. And he had a lawsuit ready. And so he's calling them out and basically demanding that the owners look at themselves, the league looks back at itself and sort of says, How can we fix this? And how can we be better? And even that's not enough. Like, he actually wants to see them really step out, hire minority candidates, really give them a chance when they get that opportunity and sort of take a step back like, "Wait, am I rushing to fire this guy because I didn't want him to begin with? Am I rushing to fire this guy because I just don't trust his leadership and I want to catch on to the next hot trend?" But I think that you definitely need to be hit with something. Something has to shake your foundation, and I don't think anything can shake your foundation more than litigation and really being called out by someone who had a lot to lose. This is a young guy who just turned 40, who likely would have another 25 or so years in the NFL if he chooses and probably have another head coaching opportunity because he had some success in Miami. And I think that's what makes it the most admirable, is that this is a young guy with a whole lot to lose who said that I also have a lot to gain if we win this thing. 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:30.000 [MUSIC FADES IN] 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:31.000 Michael, thank you so much for your time and thanks for speaking about the investigation. 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:32.000 Oh, yeah, thanks for having me on. I really enjoyed the conversation. 00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:33.000 You can read "The Washington Post"'s series, called "Black Out," on Apple News. You can find a link on our show notes page. 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:34.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT]