WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.000 Hey there. Before we get into today's episode, I have a quick favor to ask. If you love this show, please subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts. And take a few seconds to rate and review us. It really helps other people find our show and it helps us know what you're liking and want to hear more of. Thank you. On with the show. 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:02.000 [MUSIC FADES IN] 00:00:02.000 --> 00:00:03.000 This is "In Conversation" from "Apple News." I'm Shumita Basu. Today, 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:04.000 what we know and still don't know about Havana Syndrome. 00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:05.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:06.000 [MUSIC - "TEMPTATION SENSATION (MAIN TITLE THEME)" BY HEINZ KIESSLING] 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:07.000 At the end of December 2016, an undercover CIA officer we're calling Tony, that's not his real name, was at home in Havana, Cuba where he was stationed. He was laying on his bed, watching an episode of "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia," just unwinding after work when this sound blasted into his bedroom. 00:00:07.000 --> 00:00:08.000 [START HAVANA SYNDROME ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:09.000 [HARSH RINGING] 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:10.000 [END HAVANA SYNDROME ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:11.000 It was so loud and so specific, he decided to record it. 00:00:11.000 --> 00:00:12.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:13.000 [START HAVANA SYNDROME ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:14.000 And it just ratcheted up. And it got really uncomfortable. It started very, very loud, like ear-piercingly loud. And then I thought, "Okay, well this is obnoxious 'cause you can't hear, you know, the show anymore." 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:15.000 [END HAVANA SYNDROME ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:16.000 [CALM MUSIC] 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:17.000 As an American spy stationed in Cuba, Tony knew that he was always being watched. He was determined to not show any signs of weakness, so he stayed still, and he tried to look calm. 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:18.000 [START HAVANA SYNDROME ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:19.000 But then there was the physiological pain. And so, the pressure started in the head, and then the discomfort in the ear. You know, I just picture those old wood vices in, you know, shop class in high school. Right? It just felt like someone was just turning that, and my head was in it. Then the severe, severe ear pain started. 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:20.000 [END HAVANA SYNDROME ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:21.000 He tried putting a pillow over his head. It did nothing. Ten minutes passed, 20 minutes. 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:22.000 [START HAVANA SYNDROME ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:23.000 And then I started blacking out from it. What worried me about going completely unconscious is that if this thing kept going, I didn't know what I was going to end up as or if I would even come to from it. 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:24.000 [END HAVANA SYNDROME ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:25.000 Finally, he decided he couldn't take it anymore, so he rolled off of his bed onto the floor and got out of his bedroom. The sound and intense pressure lifted. But he was still disoriented and in pain. 00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:26.000 In the following days and weeks, he still heard the noise. He got nose bleeds and debilitating migraines. He basically went from being a real-life Jason Bourne to not being able to do basic tasks at work. At a certain point, Tony considered ending his life. 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:27.000 [START HAVANA SYNDROME ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:28.000 I was at the top physical, psychological, emotional place I could've ever been in my life, and I was gung ho to do my job. And within six months, I was a zombie and non-functional as a human being. 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:29.000 [END HAVANA SYNDROME ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:30.000 Tony's story is one of the first known cases of Havana Syndrome, the name given to a mysterious set of symptoms experienced by U.S. spies and diplomats, first in Havana, but also in other parts of the world like Vienna, London and Moscow. 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:31.000 A recent report from U.S. intelligence agencies concluded that it's "very unlikely" these cases are the result of a deliberate attack from some kind of foreign adversary. But to this day, many victims say they haven't gotten a satisfying explanation for what happened to them. 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:32.000 Which is why two reporters have teamed up to try to get answers and find accountability — "The New Yorker's" Jon Lee Anderson, who has reported from war zones around the world and spent years living in and reporting on Cuba, and Adam Entous at "The New York Times," who's covered national security and intelligence agencies for more than a decade. 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:33.000 Together, they created a podcast for "VICE World News" called "Havana Syndrome," where they speak with officials inside the U.S. government and with people like Tony, who say they're still suffering the effects of it. 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:34.000 But first, to understand what American spies in Cuba are up against, Adam says you have to know that Cuba has one of the most successful, most sophisticated intelligence forces in the world. 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:35.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:36.000 Well, I mean, the history is Cuba was, during the Cold War, a close ally of the Soviet Union and the KGB, which is the Russian Intelligence Service before the Soviet Union collapsed, would actually send its counterintelligence officers to Cuba to work with the Cubans. And it got to the point where, you know, the Cubans were so good at this. I mean, you have… Cubans are sort of like… I like to think of them as sort of like the Israelis in that, you know, they have this singular focus on the defense of the country, right? And the Cuban services have a similar ethos where they're up against a singular enemy, which is the Americans, right? And so, they're just singularly focused on this and incredibly efficient. And that focus and prioritization on the United States meant that they just built a system that frankly outpaced the KGB. They were better at this and tracking who was on the island. You know, the CIA had found an adversary that frankly was so good that the CIA, you know, had to basically respect their trade craft. 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:37.000 I just wanna jump in. Absolutely, what Adam's saying is correct. It's very much, you know, Cuba against the world. And they had 50 years to evolve a security system that both had pretty ironclad surveillance inside and also a very operational global ability abroad. Cuba operates all over the world, very… It punches way above its weight for a small nation of 11 million people. I just wanna say that a lot of this resonates with me. I lived in Cuba, and I came to know that I had certain friends who had been assigned to me and who regularly informed on me and who every month met with… And some of them told me this, eventually. They were given certain questions that they needed to answer from me every month by agents of the Ministry of Interior. This is, by the way, it's not just with Americans. It's across the board. That's just standard procedure. That's standard operating procedure in Cuba. If you're a foreigner, you have to assume you are under some sort of surveillance. They don't want to know that there are spies able to have their way on the island. 00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:38.000 [MELANCHOLY MUSIC] 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:39.000 A former U.S. foreign service officer once said, "Everything in Cuba is bugged, even the coconut trees." This whole "we're watching you" act goes back decades. And with American officials, it can feel very pointed. 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:40.000 One state department person came home and found knives stuck into her lawn up to the hilt. So, others would come home and there would be feces under the handle of the door, so that, you know, when you unlock your door, you realize you have dog poop or whatever, human poop on your hands. 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:41.000 Tony had experienced similar harassment while stationed in Havana. In fact, just a few days before the incident in his bedroom, he comes home… 00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:42.000 And he finds one of his dress shirts crumpled in the corner of his bedroom, soaked in urine. And it's a very pungent smell. 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:43.000 That's why when he heard that sound, his first thought was, "This is just some kind of intimidation." The other thing that's important to know here is what was going on politically around the time of Tony's incident. Remember, it was the end of 2016. 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:44.000 This is in the weeks following the death of Fidel Castro, the iconic leader of the revolution and the election of Donald Trump, which was a surprise and an upset for Cubans who had been engaged in this opening with the Obama administration over the previous year and a half. That's the context in which this syndrome begins to become something that's acknowledged within the station first and then begins to affect other people attached to the embassy. 00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:45.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:46.000 Jon Lee, can I ask you to describe what people told you they experienced? What did they say it was like in the moment and what do they describe as some of the long-term symptoms? 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:47.000 Pain in the ears. Pain in the head. A kind of overwhelming, paralyzing, anxiety-inducing, inexplicable moment of affliction in which you're held in the grip of something. You don't know what it is or where it's coming from. The sound isn't from without. It's from within. It's inside your head. It's a kind of giant insect or something, a metallic thrumming that's overwhelming. But you're feeling pain in every core of your body. And it's not until you move from where you are and you get behind a wall, let's say, or move away from where this has happened, a window, in some cases you're in bed, that it stops. And it stops just like that, suddenly. The deleterious effects, the aftereffects are gradual. It almost feels surreal afterwards. And the next day or the day after that, you begin to realize you're different. There's a brain fog. You can't concentrate. You can't remember why you walked from A to C. You have difficulty sleeping, walking. As the days go by, it gets worse. And finally, you realize something terrible has happened to you, and you seek medical advice. 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:48.000 [PENSIVE MUSIC] 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:49.000 By August of 2017, nearly two dozen American spies and diplomats had reported incidents of Havana Syndrome. That's when the U.S. government acknowledged, for the first time, this mysterious string of health incidents. 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:50.000 [START U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:51.000 So, some U.S. Government personnel who were working at our embassy in Havana, Cuba on official duties, they've reported some incidents which have caused a variety of physical symptoms. We don't have any definitive answers about the source or the cause of what we consider to be incidents. 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:52.000 [END U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:53.000 A month later, the CIA closed its station in Havana. And it was around this time that the State Department quietly sent Tony and others like him to a medical facility at the University of Pennsylvania. 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:54.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:55.000 They find out that they have injuries in their brain similar to that of concussions, but really massive concussions, similar to the kinds we're hearing about and brain injuries similar to those that we've, in recent years, been hearing that football players have experienced. So, actual brain injuries. When Adam and I went to meet the doctor who was in charge of the cases of many of these people, he got very offended when we suggested that it might be what they call psychogenic or some kind of mass hysteria, you know, a bunch of nervous Nellies who were getting each other scared and experiencing symptoms like panic attacks, which is still something that circulates. This doctor who's a real… You know, he's a scientist. He's one of the country's top, if not the top, expert in the pathology of concussions… really reacted very emotionally when we brought this up and suggested this. And he said, "No." 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:56.000 [START HAVANA SYNDROME ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:57.000 I don't know of any psychiatric issues that kind of look like what you have with traumatic brain injury. It doesn't mean it could never happen, but this is kind of a unique disruption of the brain's networks. 00:00:57.000 --> 00:00:58.000 [END HAVANA SYNDROME ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:00:58.000 --> 00:00:59.000 And he said they have scarring in their cerebellum, I believe it's called, which is the innermost part of the brain, the most primitive part of the brain, i.e. the most protected part of the brain. And therefore, if it were anxiety or stress-induced, it would be inexplicable for there to be this kind of scarring. These people were real victims of something that had happened to them. And because it remained cloaked in secrecy, not least because the victims were mostly CIA and therefore belonged to the secret world, you know, there was only so much he could say, so he stuck to his diagnoses of the physical effects on these people. 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:00.000 And I should say that there have also been reports of Havana Syndrome-like symptoms in other places in the world now in Russia, in China, in London. What do we know about those? 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:01.000 What happened was, is you had the initial incidents in Havana, and then you started to have cases being reported in other places. The next place is in Moscow, where a senior CIA officer goes for meetings and gets sick. 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:02.000 [START CNN ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:03.000 I've been in places like, you know, Iraq and Afghanistan. I've been shot at, but this was by far the most terrifying experience of my life. 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:04.000 [END CNN ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:05.000 After that, you have cases being reported in Guangzhou in China. A flurry, big flurry there. 00:01:05.000 --> 00:01:06.000 [START 60 MINUTES ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:07.000 I woke up in the middle of the night, and I could feel this sound in my head. It was intense pressure on both of my temples. At the same time, I heard this low humming sound, and it was oscillating. 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:08.000 [END 60 MINUTES ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:09.000 And there was also a significant number of people who apparently succumbed at the U.S. Embassy in Vienna, Austria, a long-time stamping ground of Cold War espionage, you know, and post-Cold War, as it turns out as well. And that was that people very close to senior American government officials began succumbing to these symptoms. It happened to a senior aid to the CIA director on a trip to New Delhi. It happened to two briefers of John Bolton, when he was National Security Advisor, on a trip to London. People at the U.S. Embassy in Hanoi had to be evacuated right before a visit by Vice President Kamala Harris. A few days before Secretary of State Blinken arrived in Bogotá, a similar thing happened with members of the U.S. Embassy there. And those, I have to say, do seem to carry a kind of signature. It's as if someone is saying, "We can get you. We just decided to get the person next to you. And we can get you at a very high level wherever you are." And of course, there's the case of the official who succumbed to these symptoms within sight of the White House. 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:10.000 [GENTLE MUSIC] 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:11.000 That person who experienced symptoms near the White House, he was an official with the National Security Council. On the "Havana Syndrome" podcast, you hear a voicemail that he left his wife describing what was happening to him. 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:12.000 [START HAVANA SYNDROME ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:13.000 Something's wrong with me. It started about an hour ago. I don't have a sense of balance. And basically for the last hour, it's felt like I'm having a stroke or something. [STUTTERING] I'm having a hard time talking. I can't describe the feeling. 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:14.000 [END HAVANA SYNDROME ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:15.000 He said, "There's something wrong with me. My balance is off. I can't speak. I feel like I'm having a stroke or something." Adam says it's really hard to shrug these cases off once you hear the victims describe it themselves. And the cases he finds most compelling, most difficult to deny, are the ones where multiple people felt the same attack, in the same place, at the same time. Adam spoke to two aides to former National Security Adviser John Bolton about an incident when they were in London in 2019. 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:16.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:17.000 They're in a hotel room, and the window is open. They're getting ready. They're gonna go out to dinner. Suddenly, they feel in their heads this tremendous pressure, and they hear this ringing in their ear like what Jon Lee describes. And they look to each other and they say, "Do you hear that? Do you feel that?" And they acknowledge that they both are experiencing the same thing. They both rush out of the room, and the minute they're outside of the room, it's gone. Right? So, when you hear a story like that, it's, you know, here you have people who are experiencing the same thing. Now this story happens in one of the stands, and it involves a military officer who, you know, had spent time in, I believe, Afghanistan. And he's in his car, driving down a crowded, busy road and has got his son in the backseat, in a child's seat. I believe the son is two or three years old at the time. And they come to an intersection, and they stop because of traffic. And suddenly, the father, who's driving the car, feels this tremendous pain in his head and ringing in his ears. And at that moment, his son in the back seat starts bawling and screaming hysterically. He's a military guy, and he, because of his experience in war zones, has this concept which we talk about in the podcast, "get off the X." So, if you feel like you're at kind of the epicenter, the target of something, what you do is try to get outta that space. Right? And so, he guns it, pulls out of the intersection. And the minute he clears the intersection, he no longer has the pressure, feels the pain, and his son is quiet in the back. So, examples like that are really… I find them very compelling because, you know, again, you have two people experiencing something. In the case of the child, obviously, child doesn't know, you know… Psychogenic what? You know, it doesn't make any sense, right? So, those are two cases that I find particularly convincing because they involve two people experiencing the same thing. And then, again, once they move to a different location, the experience stops, and the pain stops. 00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:18.000 In 2020, the Trump administration expanded its efforts to investigate suspected Havana Syndrome cases. The CIA, State Department and other agencies went to their employees and asked them to come forward and report any incidents. This resulted in an explosion in the number of possible cases. 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:19.000 These are symptoms that frankly, you know, we're talking here about ringing in the ears, balance problems, very, very general-type symptoms and very hard to determine what is Havana Syndrome. They really don't… never really defined what it was. Right? Just sort of mystery symptoms, if you will, without an origin that can be pinpointed. And so, what happens is you get this flood of mystery reported cases. And they went through, and they looked, and they said, "You know what? The vast majority of those can be explained by other things." This is COVID, you know. We're in the middle of COVID times, you know. A lot of other illnesses can be attributed. Some of the illnesses, actually, it's interesting, could be attributed to maintenance issues with the SCIFs. These are the secure communications, protected area in the embassy, which are literally pressurized. They have air conditioning, their own air conditioning units, and some of the equipment there was faulty, which resulted in some people reporting symptoms that were potentially caused by these maintenance issues in the facility where they were, like, literally doing their job. So, anyways, the CIA basically came out with a report, an interim report, which said that after they opened the aperture, the majority of those cases we don't think can be explained by other things, but that there is a core group in the dozens that we cannot explain, including those original cases in Havana where it's unclear how those individuals became sick. That remains sort of the core mystery which they have yet to be able to address. 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:20.000 And while this remains a mystery, Jon Lee says it's worth looking at precedents, at the way that U.S. diplomats have been targeted in the past. 00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:21.000 There was a pattern going back to the 1960s of the Russians bombarding the U.S. Embassy in Moscow with microwave, sort of barraging it. It's a silent thing. And at various times, there were investigations amongst the staff and widespread belief amongst the staff at different times at the U.S. Embassy in Moscow. Some of these were kept secret, others leaked out that microwave barrage could be causing cancers or other ill effects amongst the embassy staff. And in the past, these were always sort of put to bed. There was nothing conclusive on the part of the U.S. government in terms of their investigations, but there was no other precedent in the world for this kind of thing. So that's why, in a lot of people's minds, the obvious suspect was probably Russia. And, you know, that also led us to look in that direction. But we didn't only look in that direction. China was a secondary suspect. What other foreign power, say, stood to lose from a renewed American friendship with Cuba, an island with which it had been estranged for 50 years and an island with which it had been long associated. Which other country had a national leader who was increasingly bellicose and hostile in various ways. You know, in a lot of people's minds, all roads led to Moscow. 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:22.000 [SUSPENSEFUL MUSIC] 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:23.000 For years, Russia has denied any connection to Havana Syndrome. Cuba has too. Earlier this month, the U.S. government put a much-anticipated report. It said after months of investigation, intelligence agencies have determined that a foreign adversary is, quote, "very unlikely" to have caused these illnesses and that there was no "credible evidence" that any adversaries had a weapon or other device that could have caused the reported symptoms. 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:24.000 State Department spokesperson Ned Price said this doesn't diminish the very real health anomalies some people are experiencing. 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:25.000 [START U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:26.000 The findings that the Intelligence Community have spoken to today in no way call into question the experiences, the symptoms that our colleagues and their family members have reported in recent years. 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:27.000 [END U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE ARCHIVAL CLIP] 00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:28.000 An attorney representing several people experiencing symptoms criticized the report, claiming that it lacked transparency. Meanwhile, the Pentagon is continuing its own investigation. For Adam and Jon Lee, they felt that the latest report isn't as conclusive as it may appear. 00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:29.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:30.000 I just cannot think it was coincidence. Fidel died. This was a huge event. This man had led the island and governed its sensibilities and controlled the minds of people for six decades. Now he was dead. And Donald Trump, my God, had just become president of the United States. It was within weeks of these two seminal events that the first attacks began. This is, to me, I'm not good at math, but two plus two equals four. And it never changes, you know. It never has changed as long as I've been alive. It hasn't changed in my mind throughout these several years Adam and I have investigated this. What we learned from Tony and other people, including John Brennan, the former CIA director, who was no Trumpian Hawk by any means. If you could say that John Bolton was, John Brennan wasn't. And he, more or less, told us that yes, as CIA director, he took advantage of the opening brokered by Obama in Cuba to up the American intelligence ability on the island. That would've freaked the Cubans out. They would've wanted to do something about it. Next thing you know, you have this thing called Havana Syndrome. 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:31.000 And, you know, for me, you know, I don't know the cause of this. But when you talk to the people that we spoke to who have been affected, you realize that they were, you know, type-A personalities. These people were at the peak of their careers. They were really, in some cases, very experienced, you know, had been deployed to very dangerous places. These were not pushovers. These were really, really serious people. And they were completely destroyed. I mean, physically destroyed. And they have no incentive to make up a story. Telling the story to their bosses basically destroyed their careers. They were basically shipped off. You know, and I think it's episode two, you'll hear Tony tell the story of how he, you know, was so frustrated with his deterioration, having gone from basically being Jason Bourne in real life to being hobbled. He was gonna kill himself, you know. And that is a story that I've heard from so many of these people. So, we're talking about here like the prime, like the best of the best suddenly being, you know, really debilitated. And they just saw their careers crash and burn over this. So really, you know, my heart goes out to these people who, you know, have suffered a tremendous amount, right? And that skepticism, it kills them. It really does. It kills them. And I feel so bad for them because they don't really have futures anymore. 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:32.000 This year, for the first time since 2017, the U.S. Embassy in Cuba resumed consular and visa services in Havana. What are people in the intelligence community saying about this decision? And what are the people that you've spoken to who are experiencing these symptoms saying about this? 00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:33.000 I completely understand not having an embassy, functioning embassy, there is really cruel to the Cubans, you know, especially those who have family in the United States and want to have that ability to visit their family members. Right? So, I understand the pressure to reopen, but I want you to know that they reopened it without really addressing, like, why they closed it in the first place. So, we sort of downsized blind, and we've gone back to normal blind. We still don't know really what happened. And I'm sure there are additional safety procedures that are underway to try to, and monitoring procedures, to try to make sure that we don't have a relapse. You know, additional cases being reported. And my understanding is there has not been, maybe zero is not the right thing, but there haven't been cases being reported anywhere around the world since approximately February, March of last year, which is… Maybe it's a coincidence or not. That's when Russia invades Ukraine. And roughly since then, there haven't been any reported cases. And I met recently with a senior U.S. official who very much follows this and points to that correlation between when the invasion of Ukraine happens and when, suddenly, Havana Syndrome cases stop being reported. And that person sees a connection. Whether there is a connection, I don't know. But anyways, bottom line is, the embassy's getting back to more of a normal situation. But we really still do not… The U.S. government hasn't figured out what happened. 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:34.000 [MUSIC FADES IN] 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:35.000 Adam, Jon Lee, thank you both so much for your time. 00:01:35.000 --> 00:01:36.000 Thank you so much. 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:37.000 Thank you, Shumita. 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:38.000 You can listen to "Havana Syndrome," a "VICE World News" podcast hosted by Adam Entous and Jon Lee Anderson, on Apple Podcasts. We'll include a link for you on our show notes page. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and leave a review for this show, "In Conversation," on Apple Podcasts. 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:39.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT]