WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.000 Hello, Samantha, it's nice to meet you. 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:02.000 Hi! It's nice to meet you, too. 00:00:02.000 --> 00:00:03.000 Before we start, and I say this to everybody, if at any point you feel like you wanna restate something, you don't love the way you said it, that's the joy of the podcast, please feel free to just take it again. We want you to feel like you're sounding your best. 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:04.000 I'm gonna say the most outrageous shit, and then be like, "Leave it in." 00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:05.000 [LAUGHTER] 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:06.000 Perfect. Wow! Love to hear it. No one has ever taken that as a challenge before. 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:07.000 [MUSIC FADES IN] 00:00:07.000 --> 00:00:08.000 This is "In Conversation" from Apple News. I'm Shumita Basu. Today, essayist Samantha Irby on how to like what you like and not really care what others think. 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:09.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:10.000 [PLAYFUL MUSIC] 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:11.000 I read a lot for work. Mostly news, some books. Lots of heavy topics. You know, politics, state-of-the-world stuff. But recently, I picked up a book of essays that made me laugh out loud so hard, I had tears streaming down my face. And I realized, it's been so long since I nourished myself with a book that was purely fun. The book is called "Quietly Hostile." It's a new collection of essays by humor writer Samantha Irby. Really just a bunch of observations and musings from her everyday life, which might look a lot like yours, except somehow way funnier the way she tells it. 00:00:11.000 --> 00:00:12.000 She's got a growing fan base and credits on several TV shows, too. She wrote my favorite episode of the TV show "Shrill," which was adapted from Lindy West's book, and she's part of the writers' room on the "Sex and the City" reboot called "And Just Like That…" 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:13.000 I recently sat down with Sam Irby to talk about her process of writing during the pandemic, about "Sex and the City," of course, and about how important it is to just do things you enjoy even if they seem frivolous or stupid. And because she does so many different things, I started by asking her how she describes herself. 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:14.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:15.000 To be funny and self-effacing, I would say something like "joke donkey." You know what I mean? Like [LAUGHS] professional idiot, sad clown. But a writer [LAUGHS] with a question mark is maybe the most… 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:16.000 Wow! That's a big question mark for someone whose books have been on the best-selling list consistently. 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:17.000 Here's the thing, though. I just - and this'll keep me humble I guess forever - I will always just think of them as like printed out blogs. Right? 'Cause I don't have, like, I don't have like a setup. You know how there are writers who are like, "This is my desk, this is where I work, I get up and I do this." And that to me feels like a real writer. And what I do, which is panic in the middle of the night as the deadline is looming. That doesn't feel like [LAUGHS] it should be called [LAUGHS] writing. I mean, it is. But like what I do, you know, making poop jokes with trauma in between, [LAUGHS] doesn't feel… I don't know. But "writer." My title should be "talker" because look at how long it took me to explain [LAUGHS] why I'm not a writer. 00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:18.000 But listen, I think what you're describing is a kind of underrated part of the creative process for a lot of creators, which is sometimes it really is that you're just up against a deadline, and you're waiting till the last minute, or you're just blurting it all out and blobbing it on the page, right? 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:19.000 Every time. Every single time. I mean, there have been essays where I've outlined or I've taken notes or I've texted myself things to remember, but usually it's just a sprint to the day my editor says, "You will default [LAUGHS] if you don't turn the book in by this day." And I know she doesn't even mean that, but it helps to hear it. 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:20.000 It takes the foot on my neck to get me to really sit down and write. Okay, for instance, for example, you are maybe the first person I'm telling this to. I was talking to my editor about the next book idea. It's gonna be a little different. And she said, "Okay, I expect a full manuscript in 11 months." And I was like, "Oh, great. I'm gonna start working on it in 10 months, maybe nine months." [LAUGHS] I could just hear… 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:21.000 "Why did you tell me that?" [LAUGHS] 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:22.000 I could just hear her balloon deflating over the phone. She was just like, [SIGHS DEEPLY]. So… 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:23.000 [LAUGHTER] 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:24.000 That's really fun… So, that is really how you work. You like to let it happen organically and at the last minute. 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:25.000 Yeah! Yes. I don't have in… I mean, in life, and this is probably a bad trait, but I don't have a sense of urgency about much. Right? I think I maybe learned too early that if you don't die at the end, it's fine. Right? I know no one's gonna kill me for turning this in late, so I [LAUGHS] don't worry about it. 00:00:25.000 --> 00:00:26.000 Yeah. Everything below death is low stakes. 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:27.000 Yes! Yeah, and even then, if it's peaceful, I'll take it. But I don't know what it is. I just am not a self-motivator. Which I wish I was, but, you know, I'm 43. It is what it is I think at this point. I'm never gonna [LAUGHS] turn over a new leaf. [LAUGHS] 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:28.000 So, tell me, is the process different for you? Because this latest book is a book of essays, as many of your books have been, but I know you've worked on so many different kinds of projects, too. You've written for TV before. Is your process different depending on what it is you're writing? 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:29.000 Yes. Well, a little bit. So, I have a newsletter that, hoo-hoo, I've dropped the ball on. Sorry to any people who subscribe and haven't heard from me in a minute. And what I do there, I'll either write about things I'm watching or reading, or I recap the television show "Judge Mathis." 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:30.000 [LAUGHS] The two categories of things you can write, of course. 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:31.000 [LAUGHTER] 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:32.000 That's it! You know, one of my early [LAUGHS] newsletters, I got a response. This was when I was still allowing responses in the early days. I got a response from this woman who was like, "I was expecting a quality essay." And I was like, "Sister, I don't even write those to be published. You thought you were gonna get that for free on the internet? No, you're gonna get what you get." So, [LAUGHS] with that, I just kind of like riff. With the Judge Mathis recaps, it's just a template I follow. I try to throw some jokes in. I mean, they're all funny and spectacular, but those are like more formulaic. 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:33.000 And then with my book stuff, I just… I get an idea that feels exciting to me and feels like I can say a lot of words about it. And then I always know where the end is. I think that's the difference between my book writing and my other writing, is I write to an ending. I know where it's gonna go. If I don't know where it's gonna go, I don't write it. All of the things that I sort of have growing mold in my draft folder, it's all stuff that I was like, I don't know how to land this plane. And like, this is a very good idea, but I don't know where to take it. Or it's not substantive. Like, this should be a long tweet, not an essay. [LAUGHS] 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:34.000 [LAUGHS] Right, right. 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:35.000 So, those things I don't do. But pretty much everything else, I just write what I'm feeling like, I do a once-over read, and that's it. But with the book stuff, you have to read it so many times you get nauseous thinking about it, and it gets edited by other people. Maybe that's the main difference is, like, both with books and TV, other people's input matters, and you have to consider it. And I don't mind that at all. I am perfectly happy to let the plumber fix the sink, you know? I'm not an editor. If you as an editor tell me that this sucks, then let's take it out. But with my stuff, I do not kill any of my darlings. Right? You'll see my newsletter is too long all the time. I take too many detours, but that's because it's the one place where no one else is gonna tell me what to do. 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:36.000 Yeah, it's the playground. 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:37.000 When left to my own devices, it's a horror show, but… 00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:38.000 [LAUGHS] Well, so let's talk about the latest book. Let's talk about "Quietly Hostile" because you wrote about… I mean, you were working on it during the pandemic. And the very first essay, in the opener, we hear more about your pandemic experience, the early pandemic experience. How was writing this collection of essays different from some of your past books? 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:39.000 Well, I have a psychiatrist this time, and I'm on a lot of Zoloft. The pandemic really broke my brain… Or no. Let's not put it all on the pandemic. I think it exacerbated some problems that I wasn't dealing with. I just… I viewed being home, like stuck at home, not as a positive, but I leaned into it. Right? I was like, "I don't wanna go outside. I hate doing things. This is perfect for me." And so, I didn't leave the house for a year minimum. 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:40.000 I mean, maybe I got a little fresh air, but I certainly didn't see anyone or go anyplace. And I think turning inward for as long as I did was not great. And I got a psychiatrist who diagnosed me with OCD, which explained so many things about my habits and personality. And so, writing this with… I didn't write about the OCD because, frankly, I don't know where [LAUGHS] it ends yet. 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:41.000 Hmm. I see. 00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:42.000 Where I'm still at the very beginning of figuring it out and doing the therapy to deal with it. But I think this time, writing the book, I was coming out of a really torturous brain place. Right? Like feeling all of those pandemic feelings, plus the new psychiatrist revelations and all that stuff. I felt like both a very different person… And, I mean, I'm always me, right? I'm always the 15-year-old writing from the most emotional place. But this had an extra layer of new sadness or despair or discomfort with what was happening in my head. 'Cause I had been used to anxiety and depression. Those are my best friends. But the OCD, trying to deal with that while also figuring out what to write, was an extra layer through which to process all of this stuff. 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:43.000 Wow. That is so interesting to hear about after reading your book and sort of thinking back on your essays in it. Because, I mean, listen, this is a humorous book. 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:44.000 Yes! Yeah. 00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:45.000 This is a very, very funny book, I should just say. 00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:46.000 Thank you. 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:47.000 I laughed out loud so many times while reading it. I laughed until I cried many times while reading it. And yet, at the same time, there's definitely more of a somberness to this book than some of your past essays. 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:48.000 Yeah. 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:49.000 I hear a lot of introspection in it. And there's something to be said, as you're pointing out, about, my work is based on my observations, and now I know something entirely different about the origins of my observations. 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:50.000 Mm-hmm. And I wasn't able to write about the OCD, so… 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:51.000 Did you try? 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:52.000 I… No. [LAUGHS] The one thing I was going to do, which I will do in a future book, with OCD, one of the best treatments is exposure therapy. But the things that I fear are situations that are hard to recreate. For instance, I'm hyper-vigilant, and one of the things I'm always afraid of is that someone's gonna walk up and hit me. You can't really recreate exposure if they're… I guess I could pay someone to walk up and punch me in the face, [LAUGHS] but that's not practical. So, instead, my doctor has me write out situations. She's like, "Think of the worst thing that could happen and write a super detailed account of someone hitting you in a public place or someone accosting you in a grocery store." So, I write it, a really detailed, like truly the worst things I can imagine. And then I have to read it multiple times a day, record it, listen to myself, and just listen to it over and over again until it's defanged, [LAUGHS] I guess. 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:53.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:54.000 I have not reached the point yet where these things… where the reading of them, I can laugh, you know? But I'm getting there. [LAUGHS] I'm getting there. So, one day, I will put all of those scenarios in a book so people can read the ways I have been torturing myself [LAUGHS] over the last year. 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:55.000 Oh, wow. In list form, as you often do. 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:56.000 Yes! You know I love a list. 00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:57.000 Wow. Wait, so are you writing these in a humorous way? 00:00:57.000 --> 00:00:58.000 Yes, because… 00:00:58.000 --> 00:00:59.000 That's your voice. 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:00.000 I can't write… Even my serious things have goofy things in them. So I write them in a humorous way, but they are scary. To me! To me. But the thing about this book was writing from this new perspective without explaining it to the audience, also feels so weird 'cause I'm so open all the time. So, it was very weird putting… It feels almost like cheating if I have a big thing going on and I don't put it in a book. Right? I feel like I'm denying the audience something. But it's just until I work it out, till I know what I wanna say about it. Keep your eyes peeled. [LAUGHS] 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:01.000 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Understood. 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:02.000 We'll have the OCD journey eventually. 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:03.000 [PLAYFUL MUSIC] 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:04.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:05.000 So, the title of your book is "Quietly Hostile," and as I was reading it, I was thinking to myself, you don't seem like a particularly seething person, so I'm interested to hear how you arrived at this description for yourself. 00:01:05.000 --> 00:01:06.000 Well, okay. You know how people will read an article and write a letter to the newspaper or someone will write a letter after they listen to this podcast and tell you that my grammar is terrible? I'm never moved to do things like that. Right? 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:07.000 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:08.000 In life, though, in my everyday existence, I do [LAUGHS] always feel… Have you seen the movie "Falling Down" with Michael Douglas? 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:09.000 No, I haven't actually. 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:10.000 Okay, first of all, watch it. But it's about this dude, this regular dude who just loses it. He just loses it because life is absurd and like McDonald's stops serving breakfast at 10:30. You know, he loses his mind because of normal things. And a lot of days, [LAUGHS] I feel like that. 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:11.000 Yeah. Yeah. 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:12.000 I am so deeply Midwestern that I will never be shouting in the street. I will never confront anyone. I will sit in my car and grip the steering wheel and feel like I'm about to explode. But I do get so mad. [LAUGHS] It's just inside, and it's always about things that don't matter that much. 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:13.000 [LAUGHTER] 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:14.000 Which is why I keep it quiet because if I complained about all the things [LAUGHS] I wanna complain about, I would have no friends. No one would talk to me ever if they could hear my interior monologue. They'd be like, "Oh, oh, mm-mm. Her? No. She needs to be living in the haunted house at the end of the block that kids don't [LAUGHS] go near." 00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:15.000 [LAUGHTER] 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:16.000 But I do keep it inside, which I think is one of my good qualities, is that I can put a cap on. And it's always something like, "Man, I wish this huge truck wasn't following me so closely." It's never anything real. [LAUGHS] It's just stuff like that. 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:17.000 Yeah. It's the little things. 00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:18.000 Yes, yes. 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:19.000 That you keep just simmering below the surface. 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:20.000 Oh, they're always there. They never go away. I wake up, and I'm like, "Am I still mad about… Yeah, she did park too close to me." 00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:21.000 [LAUGHTER] 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:22.000 A quiet grudge keeper. 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:23.000 [LAUGHS] Yes! 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:24.000 Hey, it's good to know what you are and just be able to say it. 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:25.000 Yeah, I can't deny it. 00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:26.000 Yeah. Yeah. To that point, one of my favorite chapters in the whole book is the "I Like It" essay. 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:27.000 Thank you. 00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:28.000 You call this your superpower. I wanna ask you to describe it. Can you describe this "I like it" move and how you deploy it? 00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:29.000 Yes. People listening, you probably know a snob or two or 12. The kind of person who, before they even look at the back of the book you're reading, tells you that that book is dumb. I mean, it's probably one of my books, so they're not wrong, but it's still rude. Those people wanna shame you and make you feel bad and make you apologize for liking what you like. And I've stopped doing that, and instead, when someone criticizes something I like, and I feel like it's a bad-faith criticism, especially, my response is just to go, "I like it." [LONG PAUSE, LAUGHS] And then just let it hang! 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:30.000 You had the stillest face, too. Just resolute. 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:31.000 That's how I do it! 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:32.000 I like it. 00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:33.000 I like it. 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:34.000 What do they do? What's the response? 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:35.000 I mean, die inside, usually. But most people, they never wanna debate, which… 'cause how do you debate when someone just says, "I like it"? [LONG PAUSE, LAUGHS] 00:01:35.000 --> 00:01:36.000 That silence that follows is beautiful. 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:37.000 It takes their knees right out from under them. Like, no matter what I am feeling inside or how uncharitable I am feeling toward my fellow man, I keep it inside, and I don't care what anybody pays attention to. 00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:38.000 That's another weird thing. Maybe this is… I should've expanded it. I'll do "I Like It, Part Two" in the next book. Where it's like, why do you even care what someone else is looking at? I don't care. If you're not forcing it on me… And I don't even need to be forced. If you're like, "Hey, let's watch this stupid thing I like." I'll be like, "Okay, yeah. Let's watch it." But even caring about what other people are paying attention to is so nuts to me. Let alone having an opinion on it or a fake opinion. Come on. 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:39.000 Yeah. 00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:40.000 Come on! 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:41.000 Yeah, I have to admit, when I read this essay, I can think of plenty of "I like it" things that I have quietly kept to myself. And, I don't know, I feel like reading this essay, actually, it made me wanna be braver. It gave me like a… 00:01:41.000 --> 00:01:42.000 Do you wanna say one now? 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:43.000 [TAKES A DEEP BREATH] Okay, I'll say one now. This is like not that controversial. That's the other thing, right? Like most of the examples I came up with are… These are not a big deal! Right? What does it matter? 00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:44.000 Yes! But it's social shame or something, right? 00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:45.000 It's social shame. Yes. 00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:46.000 You're not reading like "Mein Kampf" or whatever. You're reading a book you got at Walgreen's. You don't have to [LAUGHS] feel bad. 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:47.000 Exactly! Very much not a big deal, it's just my thing. If it's your ick, that's fine. 00:01:47.000 --> 00:01:48.000 Yes! 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:49.000 For me, this was one I was thinking about was… I mean, okay, so there's like all this health food, your body is a temple, et cetera, et cetera. Truthfully, though, if you ask me at the end of the day what peanut butter I want, I want it to be a peanut butter with so many ingredients that I can't pronounce in it because they just taste better to me. I don't know what to tell you. 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:50.000 [LAUGHS] You are correct! 00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:51.000 The peanut butters that are like "just peanuts, proud to say." 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:52.000 Blech! 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:53.000 I've tried them and I don't like them. 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:54.000 The layer of oil alone is reason not to buy those. You want your peanut butter smooth or crunchy, but a consistently crunchy texture. So, my wife and I are very different, and one of our big differences is that I like things from the store. 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:55.000 Mm-hmm. 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:56.000 Right? I'm like, "Oh, we're having cake? Get a cake from the store." And she's like, "Oh no, I'm baking a cake." And I'm like… 00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:57.000 You know the store has them, right? 00:01:57.000 --> 00:01:58.000 [LAUGHTER] 00:01:58.000 --> 00:01:59.000 Yes! 00:01:59.000 --> 00:02:00.000 Right. 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:01.000 Y'all can eat that low-sugar whatever cake, I'm gonna get this one from the store that like tastes good and could survive a nuclear [LAUGHS] bomb. 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:02.000 [LAUGHS] Right, right. 00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:03.000 [LAUGHTER] 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:04.000 But yeah, I'm with you. The food snobs? Some of the worst kind of snobs. People who are like, "Oh, McDonald's?" 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:05.000 I feel like we're living through this time where it's like really sinful to hold some of these opposing opinions, and I just like the idea of arresting it and stopping it in its tracks with an "I like it!" 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:06.000 Yes, I mean, one of the things about the pandem… It's like, life is so hard, and we live through so much. My personal choices that affect me only cannot be something I'm feeling bad about. You know what I mean? If I wanna get a jar of Skippy and eat it off a spoon, that's okay. That's what I'm gonna do. 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:07.000 You're gonna enjoy it. Yes. 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:08.000 [LAUGHS] It's not hurting anybody. 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:09.000 [UPBEAT ROCK MUSIC] 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:10.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:11.000 I feel like you have this really insightful way of reflecting back, at least on yourself, through different eras in your life. You write a lot about who you were at 19, and the job you had at the bakery, and you write about your twenties and what your sex life was like and relationships and dating. And it's really nice to read someone who is so willing to dig into themselves in every era. 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:12.000 And I know that, in this book at least, you write about how you were working on a TV show based on your life for many years, and that show ultimately did not get picked up. 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:13.000 It didn't. 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:14.000 But what a difficult experience it was to really write about yourself through those decades. 'Cause your character, as I understand it, was sort of a mix together of all these yous at different decades. 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:15.000 Yes. Yeah, it was like elements of current me, the writer, but not with a wife and stuff 'cause they wanted TV Sam to be single. But also working at the bakery where I worked when I was… It was like my first real jobby job. And then some of the dirt-baggishness of my [LAUGHS] twenties mixed in there. I never want to make a show about myself ever again. 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:16.000 Really? 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:17.000 It is surreal. It's surreal to approach your life from the aspect… and because I don't do this in my writing. I don't think, "What am I doing or how do I package this so it's entertaining for people?" I just think, "Oh, we went to the Cheesecake Factory on the grand opening. I'm gonna write about that." Or you know, [LAUGHS] "I like to think about whales in the middle of the night. I'm gonna write about that." But with TV, you have to accomplish so much, especially in a pilot. Who is this? Why do we care? What does she want? Where's she going? Who are her friends? And then you have to figure out how to make that entertaining in 22 minutes. People who do it? Incredible. About themselves? Incredible. It's easy for me to do it for fictional characters, but turning that on myself and thinking, "How do I package my life so that it looks good in this episode and is funny and fits 'Comedy Central's' format?" All the things you have to consider. Doing that about yourself? I'm done. I don't think no one should do it. I'm never [LAUGHS] doing it again. 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:18.000 Just not for you. 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:19.000 No! And then, thinking about when I started… So, we started like six or seven years ago developing "Meaty," my first book, for TV. The things I know about the way criticism and social media work now, it was a blessing that the show didn't get made. Because I cannot imagine… First of all, I can't imagine anyone watching it, but if they do, having someone critique my actual self as portrayed in a television show might actually put me in a grave. So… [LAUGHS] 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:20.000 There's just not enough separation, you're saying, between criticism of the real you and criticism of the show you. 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:21.000 Right. Right. 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:22.000 It's interesting to hear how much you struggled with the content that was based on your real life. And, I mean, I know that you wrote on "Shrill," which was excellent. And I love the "Pool" episode. It was really, really brilliant. 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:23.000 Oh, thank you. I'm so proud of that. 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:24.000 You should be. You should be. It was really incredible and memorable and thoughtful and kept me thinking after I'd watched it. And of course, you've worked on the "Sex and the City" reboot, which as you describe it, is like so far removed from your lived experience, from your [LAUGHS] aspirational experience, it sounds like, too. And yet, you're enjoying working on the show because you've so enjoyed "Sex and the City." 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:25.000 Yes, and it's the people I work with. It is straight-up the best. All we do is scream-laugh at each other all day over Zoom while thinking up these little stories. But it was… the reaction, or at least the public reaction, to "And Just Like That…" was a big reason that I was like okay putting the tombstone on my ever trying to develop myself for TV. Because seeing people passionately… some lady called me a murderer because Mr. Big died in the first episode. She tagged me on "Instagram" and called me a murderer. And I laughed, but that's crazy as hell. And I cannot subject myself, my personal tender baby self that I'm putting on the screen, I could not subject her or the actor playing her to that kind of… It's fun to talk about shows till it's a show you worked on, and then it's like, "Oh, people are so mean." [LAUGHS] So, no! 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:26.000 Can I confess something to you? This might make you faint. I have watched less than two collective minutes of any "Sex and the City," like old "Sex and the City." I have not watched "Sex and the City." 00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:27.000 For real? 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:28.000 Yeah, for real. And not like out of like a stance or anything. I just never watched it. 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:29.000 Yeah. Okay. Okay. I'm not going to roast you because… 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:30.000 What do I do? What do I do now? 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:31.000 Well, first, let me admit to you that I've never watched a single episode of "The Sopranos" or "Breaking Bad." Sometimes you just miss the big shit. 00:02:31.000 --> 00:02:32.000 Sometimes you miss the big cultural moment. 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:33.000 Sometimes you miss 'em. Where should you start? Well… 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:34.000 That is such a… First of all, that is a really generous and compassionate response, so thank you for that. [LAUGHS] 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:35.000 Oh, you're welcome. I get it. Oh. Okay, I think you could… Maybe this is blasphemous. Mm. No, you can't. I was gonna say you could skip the first season, but you can't. You could… Hmm. I'm sorry, you have to watch the whole thing. 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:36.000 [LAUGHTER] 00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:37.000 You're like, "I have no better advice for you than watch every single minute of it that's ever been made." 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:38.000 Okay, you need a text buddy to watch it with you or someone to watch it with you. When catching up on old things, I feel less gross and weird if I'm talking to someone else about it. I don't feel like a loser who missed the boat. I'm like, "This is the two of us having a… We're having a thing!" 00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:39.000 [LAUGHTER] 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:40.000 This is socializing. I get social points for this. 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:41.000 Yes. Yes. Yeah. 00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:42.000 Yeah. Okay, that's what I'm gonna do. 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:43.000 You could text me if you need to and just be like, "I'm on episode one," and I'll start right there and watch it with you. 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:44.000 [LAUGHTER] 00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:45.000 Thank you. Thank you. Basically, reading your essay convinced me that I have just through osmosis learned so much about "Sex and the City" over the years. I was not lost in your essay [LAUGHS] about it, about all the alternative timelines and suggestions for episodes. 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:46.000 [LAUGHS, SIGHS] That makes me so happy. 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:47.000 I pretty much knew what was going on, which made me think like, "Have I just somehow absorbed everything I need to know about it?" 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:48.000 I mean, it's possible. But you know what, one thing that would make it worth watching is - I think I wrote this in the book - that the little backlash we got to it was so weird because people were acting as though we'd ruined "Downton Abbey," right, by putting weird stuff in it. The original "Sex and the City" is so funny and dumb. The dumbest things happen all the time. I mean, there is a fart-based episode that is incredible. [LAUGHS] 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:49.000 Are you responsible for that one? 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:50.000 No, that's in the original series. 00:02:50.000 --> 00:02:51.000 Oh, in the original you're talking about! Well, see, there you go. 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:52.000 Yeah. I tried to get some poop in here but couldn't do it. Close! 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:53.000 Didn't make it. Didn't make it. It finds a home in your book, always. 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:54.000 No. Uh-uh. [LAUGHS] 00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:55.000 [CHEERFUL PIANO MUSIC] 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:56.000 Yes! Yes, I'm there to scoop that poop right up and put it in a book. 00:02:56.000 --> 00:02:57.000 You've said many times before that what you really want is for your books to be read in the bathroom. 00:02:57.000 --> 00:02:58.000 Yes. 00:02:58.000 --> 00:02:59.000 You want them to be this fun and frivolous thing that you read while you're sitting on the toilet. 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:00.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:01.000 Yes. Yes. 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:02.000 And I feel like this connects back to that "I like it" attitude because sometimes there is a lot of judgment around frivolous things. There's judgment around the frivolous TV or the frivolous books, and there's this attitude of, "If it's not productive, why do it?" 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:03.000 Yeah, when did we get like that? And by "we," I mean people at large, 'cause I love frivolity. Put that on a t-shirt. 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:04.000 [LAUGHS] Well, I was wondering if you could make the case. Can you make the case for why everybody should do more frivolous things that just make them happy? 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:05.000 Oh, yes. Okay. If you have a job, you probably hate that job even a little bit. That's why you should watch whatever thing you wanna watch on TV. Your car, probably not the car you want. Your house, not so great. There's a hole in the deck, chipmunks are chewing through your retaining wall. [LAUGHS] Life is terrible, and if you're old enough to not have to do things for school assignments, then you should do whatever you want that makes you happy. Anything that distracts you from how terrible life is. You're probably sick, your joints hurt, your back's jacked up. Like whatever it is, life sucks. And so, you should do what you want when it comes to entertaining yourself and making yourself happy. That's it. 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:06.000 [MUSIC FADES IN] 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:07.000 Samantha Irby, I can't think of a better ending. It has been so much fun chatting with you. 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:08.000 You too. I hope you have an incredible day. I am about to go get back in bed. 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:09.000 [LAUGHTER] 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:10.000 Samantha Irby is a writer, with no question mark at the end. Her latest collection of essays, "Quietly Hostile," is out now on Apple Books. We'll include a link for you on our show notes page. 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:11.000 [MUSIC FADES OUT] 00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:12.000 Oh, that was so fun.