[MUSIC FADES IN]
Shumita Basu, Narrating: This is “In Conversation,” from Apple News. I’m Shumita Basu. Today: all things soccer, or should I say football, with Rebecca Lowe.
[MUISC FADES]
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
Basu, Narrating: The Women’s World Cup is officially underway in Australia and New Zealand. It’s a tournament with a lot of firsts. A record 32 teams are competing, with 8 nations making their Women’s World Cup debuts. Players in so many countries: Canada, England, New Zealand, Spain, France, South Africa and Zambia, are fighting with their local football associations for equal pay and better conditions, and they’re making slow but sure progress. This tournament is also a chance for the United States to do something historic…
[START ARCHIVAL CLIP FROM AFTER THE WHISTLE]
Rebecca Lowe: They are now heading into an attempt for the three peat, which would be pure history. I mean, to win a World Cup three times in a row, to actually win any trophy, in any sport, three times in a row, is near on impossible. It's even harder when there are four years between each one.
[END ARCHIVAL CLIP FROM AFTER THE WHISTLE]
Basu, Narrating: That’s Rebecca Lowe. She’s kind of an icon in the soccer broadcasting world. She’s a host of “NBC” Sport’s Premiere League coverage…
[START NBC ARCHIVAL CLIP]
Rebecca Lowe: We are going to make some memories. This is "Premier League Mornings Live" on location…
[END NBC ARCHIVAL CLIP]
Basu, Narrating: She also cohosts Apple News’s “After the Whistle” podcast with Brendan Hunt, one of the stars of “Ted Lasso.” The podcast is now back for a second season to cover the Women’s World Cup.
[START ARCHIVAL CLIP FROM AFTER THE WHISTLE]
Rebecca Lowe: Okay, winners, who are your winners? This is the big one.
Brendan Hunt: Despite my reservations…
[LOWE LAUGHS]
Hunt: …despite my timidity, my cautiousness, my responsibly wide view… Gotta go U.S.A.. Gotta U.S.A.. Here we come, Australia. Get ready for it. You?
Lowe: Head says Germany. Sort of full body says U.S.A..
[HUNT CHUCKLES]
Lowe: Heart says those cheeky little Lionesses. Oh yeah, I'm going for it. I mean, by the way, so how predictable are we? Literally? How predictable are our predictions? So predictable.
Hunt: Hold on.
Lowe: Yeah.
Hunt: You made me go first.
Lowe: Yeah.
Hunt: And you picked three winners.
Lowe: Correct.
Hunt: Like, I've never seen a fence straddled so hard.
[END ARCHIVAL CLIP FROM AFTER THE WHISTLE]
Basu, Narrating: I wanted to talk with Rebecca ahead of the tournament for a sort of crash-course in what to look out for, the teams and players to watch. But first, we got to talking about how sports broadcasting has long been, and still is, very male-dominated. I asked Rebecca how she got into covering soccer in the first place.
[MUSIC FADES]
Rebecca Lowe: It's a strange path, Shumita. Most people, certainly where I come from, go and do a degree in journalism, and then they go and work in local radio in England or local television, and they work their way up. But I won a competition in 2002. I applied for the BBC talent search for a football reporter because I just had always loved football, and I was planning on being an actress. So, in that year, I worked for a sports radio station just making cups of tea and answering phones and applied for this competition. Which I was never going to win, in my mind, because I was a woman, and it was only 2002. And then, long story short, I won it. And it was a six-month contract as a soccer reporter for the BBC.
Basu: Wow. So, you had a love of the game. You came in just with your regular love of the game.
Lowe: Which was so rare. I mean, I was nine years old, my dad took me to a Crystal Palace match. They're my team, they're in South London, they're in the Premier League now. But when I was growing up, they were not in the Premier League very often. And he took me one day because he had a spare ticket, and there was no one else to take, none of his other male friends, or my brother, he was busy, and I think he just was like, well, I'm not gonna waste a ticket, “You! You can come with me, I suppose." Trust me, you would not take a nine-year-old girl in 1989 to a soccer match. It was very rare. But I just remember from that moment on, I was just hooked. Hooked, hooked, hooked. When I say it was rare, I couldn't find a single soul, except for one young lady to be my friend, to like football with me growing up in England. I was I was like this strange person that loved football. So yeah, I'd always loved it throughout growing up, and I would go every week with my dad to watch the Crystal Palace. And then when I won the competition I was like, "Oh, oh okay, well maybe I can do this." But then when you walk in the offices at the BBC and there's like no women, I'm thinking, "Okay, this is going to be hard." So, I did the six months and I ended up staying. But even then, you know, in the 2000s, it was like forcing it on people. It was so difficult to get people interested. It was tough. So, I can't believe it is where it is now, to be honest, in the UK, compared to where it was when I started 20 years ago. I never thought it would get this big.
[INSPIRATIONAL MUSIC]
Basu, Narrating: A big moment for women’s soccer was the 1999 World Cup when Brandi Chastain made that unbelievable penalty kick to clinch the title for the United States. You might remember the iconic image that was everywhere, the cover of magazines, newspapers. Brandi, right after taking that winning shot, in her sports bra, holding her jersey, arms up, victorious. Here she is in a FIFA video talking about it…
[MUSIC FADES]
[START FIFA WOMEN'S WORLD CUP ARCHIVAL CLIP]
[TRIUMPHANT MUSIC]
Brandi Chastain: I felt incredibly comfortable. And I put the ball down. And I backed up just like I normally would. The referee blew the whistle. I tapped my toe on the ground… And the next thing you know, it hit the net and the celebration happened and next thing you know, the players are there.
[MUSIC FADES]
[END FIFA WOMEN'S WORLD CUP ARCHIVAL CLIP]
Lowe: She did it for me. It was amazing. And you know she took it with her Weaker foot. She took it with her left foot. She's not even left footed. I mean, she’s Amazing. She's that kind of person though. She's just, she oozes confidence. She's just the best of the best. Anyway, that was quite the moment being given a private audience with Brandi Chastain re-enacting her penalty in, in 1999.
Basu: Oh, wow. [LAUGHS]
Lowe: She did it for me. It was amazing. And you know she took it with her weaker foot. She took it with her left foot. She's not even left-footed. I mean, she’s a hero.
Basu: Did she really?
Lowe: Yeah, I know. Amazing. She's that kind of person though. She oozes confidence. She's just the best of the best. Anyway, that was quite the moment being given a private audience with Brandi Chastain re-enacting her penalty in 1999.
Basu: That's incredible. [LAUGHS]
Lowe: I know, it's amazing.
Basu, Narrating: That was the tournament that cemented the U.S. women soccer players as household names.
Lowe: The 99ers is that team of Julie Foudy and Brandi Chastain and Bri Scurry. They were known as the 99ers, of course. They set that tone all the way back to really put women's football on the map. Because one thing I've known living in America for 10 years, you guys love to win, and if you win people take notice. It could be in any sport. So, in 1999, at the World Cup, you had that opportunity in your home country to unite behind a winning team that went on to win the World Cup. The impact that they had was generational. And I think that's where we are today. I really think we are there again, you know, with the Megans and the Alex Morgans now. They are gonna have a similar impact. And you see it already. Kids love them. And if the 99ers had social media, you know, they'd all be millionaires by now.
[BASU LAUGHS]
Lowe: You know, I mean, Alex Morgan's got over 10 million followers. It's a different world now, but it's the same feeling. It's the young girls and the young boys, like my little boy Teddy who's seven, he loves Alex Morgan. You know, he was lucky enough to meet her the other week, and he just… he's talked about her ever since. And watching my little seven-year-old boy go up to… we went to a San Diego Wave game… go up to the players at the end to get them to sign his flag, was so interesting to me. Because again, I go back to it, where I come from, women footballers wouldn't have been an attraction to children. And now… and in this country, they are. And we shouldn't take that for granted, you know. Because I know that many of the listeners, and you and your generation, my generation, will have known nothing else other than the 99ers and how great they are. But that's a big deal. It doesn't happen in many places the world. When I watch Teddy go up and ask those… I think, that's amazing, because he's seeing them the same way he sees Christian Pulisic. He doesn't see a difference between Alex Morgan and Christian Pulisic. That actually gives me chills.
Basu: A hundred percent. Yeah. So, let's talk about this summer and what you're watching for. I mean, I think for a lot of people… I mean, let's just recognize where we are at in America, right? A lot of people are becoming more interested in soccer, but certainly still a lot of people are a bit new to the sport or newly interested in the sport. So, who are the major players on the U.S. team that people should know and people should be watching?
Lowe: Wow, so when you deal with a team as good as America, you could basically just give the 1 to 11 and say you need to know them all.
Basu: It's just everybody.
Lowe: Yeah. Because they're all so good. I mean, my brain straight away goes to Alex Morgan. So, if anyone who's listening who's heard the name, it’s the lady who has the long brown hair with the pink headband. That's basically her trademark. And she has been around since the 2011 World Cup. This will be her fourth World Cup. Alex Morgan plays what we call the number nine, which is the out and out striker up top. And she is a true United States legend. She scores goals, you know, like it's the easiest thing in the world. So, she will probably start every game. Now, the manager of the team will probably play a 4-3-3 formation. So, four defenders, three midfielders, three up top. So, Alex will play in the middle of that three-up top. Either side of her is up for debate, but there is a young player called Sophia Smith, who is, I think, a definite starter. Another player you must watch. She's crazy good. Ridiculous good. First World Cup, lots of NWSL teams want to try and trade her. She, I think, could be a breakout star in this World Cup.
Lowe: Further back, there are some big names that are missing through injury or retirement, which is a great shame. Mallory Swanson should be there. She's injured. The captain, Becky Sauerbrunn, who is a center half, she announced a couple of weeks ago she wouldn't be able to play. That's a huge miss, because she's brilliant at center half. Center half is, of course, the middle two positions and that back four. It's probably going to be Alana Cook on one side, and a young lady called Naomi Girma on the other. And she plays for the San Diego Wave, she came out of Stanford. She is, what we would call in England, a Rolls Royce of a footballer. Like a Lamborghini of a footballer. She is smooth, she has awareness, she's got pace, but she knows how to bring the ball out to try and start a play. She is just refined, and so young. This is her first World Cup. And I think she will become Who Becky Sauerbrunn has been. I think Naomi Girma will do three, four World Cups. She, for me, will also be, I think, one of the performers of the tournament. So, Alex Morgan, Sophia Smith, Naomi Girma are my top three. But, really, they're all so good, I could pick any.
Basu: So now, America is the one to beat, but there is a ton of tough competition from around the world. Who do you think has it in them to give America a real run for their money?
Lowe: So, not being biased, but possibly slightly, England are the European champions from 2022. Now, don't get me wrong, England have historically not been a threat. But in the last five or so years, it's been catapulted, and it's a mixture of good coaching, better players and a better league. So, the WSL in England has finally gone professional. Fully professional. Hallelujah. We finally got there. So, players aren't having to pay to play. They aren't having to teach it in school during the day and then go and train in the evening. They can actually play football for a living. That's changed everything and that's definitely made the England national team better. So, England's Lionesses coming off that 2022 European Championship, I would say are up there with Germany. I mean, Germany, if anyone listening, doesn't know too much about football, let me just tell you, Germany basically win everything.
[BASU LAUGHS]
Lowe: They are good at men's football. They are good at women's football. They are good at a lot of things. So, you can never count Germany out. They are one of England's biggest rivals because we always lose to them. So, Germany are always gonna be a danger. France are excellent. Technically, they've got some really good players as well. I would say England, Germany and France are the big three.
Lowe: You can go through the list of this Women's World Cup, which, by the way, is the biggest there's ever been, there’s 32 teams in it now. Australia, being on home soil, having one of the best players in the world, and Sam Kerr, another one to look out for, she is top of her game. Top class. Best in the world. She plays for Australia in front of her own fans and the Aussies love sport. Oh, my goodness. Their cricket, their rugby, and now their women's soccer. I wouldn't put it past them going far. So, you could actually count, I would say, 10 of the 32 teams have a chance. Five of the 32 teams have a really good chance.
Basu: How much does being on your home ground give you a real advantage?
Lowe: Huge. Australia’s first game is against the Republic of Ireland and Ireland have never been to a World Cup before. They're actually one of my dark horses, but imagine being in that Ireland team. You've never been to a World Cup. You are walking out at this stadium, which will be packed out full of Aussies. A tiny group of Irish in the corner, which will be loud, but there is no doubt they're Irish. They'll be loud. But you are going to be intimidated anyway, and then you're faced with that. So, I do think that playing on your home stadiums, in your home country, on your own soil, in your own time zone, in your own weather, in your hotels that serve the food that you like to eat, with your families in the stands. There are many things, actually, when you add up, all the things that everyone else won't have.
Basu: Yeah. Yeah. Well, with the games, as you mentioned, being in Australia and New Zealand and in those time zones and terrible times for us, I mean, I was looking up the schedule. It just looks so difficult for anyone in the United States. We're talking like really early morning, sometimes middle of the night.
Lowe: I think it starts okay. I want to say the first…
Basu: It starts okay.
Lowe: …are sort of 6 pm., 9 p.m.
Basu: Yeah, there's some later evening ones, which are totally fine.
Lowe: Yes. But the better that U.S.A. do, the worse it becomes.
Basu: Yes, exactly. Well, I imagine that you have lots of thoughts on how to watch a sport that is often on a different time zone than you. So, do you have any tips for U. S. based watchers?
Lowe: Power through. Funnily enough, my life is based on three different time zones. So, I live in California, Shumita. I fly on a Friday to New York where just outside New York is my "NBC" studio. But of course, we're showing English football. So, I come from California time zone to New York time zone to then go on British time zone to get up at half past three in the morning. I actually don't have any tips other than you have to just power through. You just gotta do it. And also, the other tip is, don't say to yourself, "Oh, it's 2am, yeah, I'm not gonna get up for that. So, what I'll do is, I'll put my alarm on for 6 and I'll record it and then I'll watch it at 6am." Well, we all know that the first thing everyone does in their morning routine is look for their phone. And the first thing that comes up on your phone is the score.
Basu: This is what I worry about.
Lowe: Right. So, the only option you got, Shumita, I gotta be honest, is to do a 2am. And anyone who's had kids, it's just a little bit like going back in time. It's gonna be okay. It's gonna be fine. And at least there's no crying baby. So yeah, get up, go downstairs, keep everything super dark, put the TV on, get your blanket, maybe your weighted blanket, and watch the game. you gotta do it. You just gotta power through it.
Basu: Just cozy up to a different time zone for a little bit. It'll be worth it.
Lowe: And also, there's something about knowing that you're not the only one doing it. And you know that there are people, watching at the same time and you're part of a community. So, it is fun to do it live. You've got to do it live.
Basu: Okay, Rebecca, I want to switch gears for just a moment because I've got you here…
Lowe: Okay.
Basu: …and I feel like I need to ask you some questions about the world of men's soccer here in America. Of course, there's been big news lately. Lionel Messi is making his debut. He's joining the MLS team inter Miami. And I should mention, Apple is reportedly involved in this deal since they own streaming rights to Major League Soccer. Aside from the details of the deal though, this move by Messi feels like huge news, like seismically huge, and also a really big chance being taken both by Messi and by Major League Soccer.
Lowe: It is seismic. I would agree it is seismic. He's 36, which is the only downside. Goodness how I wish he'd done this when he was 30. He was never going to, but that would have been double seismic. I saw that the sleeve sponsor, so the tiny area on the sort of top of the bicep of the Inter Miami shirts, that little sponsorship badge has been sold for a ridiculous amount of money never seen before in any game ever. I mean it does get quite a lot of exposure because on every close up of a player, you know, you do see the sleeve. I mean, it just gives you an example of his star power. Shumita, Inter Miami now has more Instagram followers than any American football, baseball or hockey team. I mean it just shows you the power of Messi. I think it's brilliant. I think anything that draws eyeballs to soccer in America for me, personally, trying to grow the game here, is brilliant. Yes, I wish he was younger. But he's a great ambassador for the game, and hopefully he can play a lot. My fear, you know, when they get to this age, and he's played a huge amount of football, let's not forget he was 15 when he broke into the Barcelona team. So, the amount of football he's played. He has not had vast stretches out of the game injured, not loads and loads and loads. So, those little legs of his, and they are pretty little, those little legs have run a lot. And when you get to 36 as a top-level footballer, you do tend to break down. And you do tend to get more injuries. So, I'm a little nervous of that, because there will be nothing worse than a damp squib, as we say in England, of him coming here and all the fanfare, for him to be injured a lot. And it happens, I've seen it happen time and time again with big stars. So, my great hope is that he stays injury free, and of course all the people who have bought all the tickets to see him can actually witness, and I'm desperate to take my kid to go and see him because, you know, we won't see the like of him again. Yes, there will be another player in 30 years’ time, 40 years’ time, maybe, who we start comparing to Messi. But Messi is Messi, and…
Basu: Yeah, he's the one right now.
Lowe: He's the one. He is everything, and I think Major League Soccer need it, if I'm honest. I think that we need more eyeballs on Major League Soccer. I just… I can't get away from it, Shumita. I just wish he'd done it earlier. I just… we've got to get away from the aging superstar coming to America. It's got to stop. How we do that, I could do a whole other podcast on it, because I know how we do it, but they won't do that. And that's to do with promotion and relegation and setting up a proper pyramid here in the United States. So that football has a proper pyramid, and it becomes incredibly competitive, but they're not going to do it. Because turkeys don't vote for Christmas. So, the owners of Major League Soccer won’t vote for that. They don't want to get relegated, do they? So, I understand why they don't want to do it.
Basu: What a great expression.[LAUGHS]
Lowe: [CHUCKLES] It's true though. The owners of Major League Soccer are like turkeys. They're not gonna vote for Christmas, they're not gonna vote for relegation. So…
Basu: Yeah, why would they?
Lowe: Exactly. But that is the core problem as to why you only get aging stars, because they see it as a way to end their career. And it shouldn't be. It should be a brilliant… This country deserves a top level, brilliant domestic league. It needs to be better. But I don't think they'll do it for a while. Certainly not for a while. Maybe I should try and get in charge of it and fix it. [LAUGHS]
Basu: I was going to say, you've got a lot of ideas.
Lowe: I have, I have.
Basu: So, I should say you and your co-host for this podcast, Brendan Hunt, of course, who played Coach Beard in Ted Lasso, are bringing your World Cup podcast back. It is here for the summer, covering the tournament. Tell us what we can look forward to in this season.
Number one, we can look forward to Brendan being in Australia, which is going to be amazing. He's going to fly out for the vast majority of the tournament. So, I'm excited for him to be, kind of, the intrepid reporter on the ground, you know, feeding me back scoops and things that we can use on the podcast. I've also told him that he has to try An Australian delicacy, food wise, every day. I would like reports back on…
Basu: Every day?
Lowe: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of interesting things in Australia to eat. So, we got Vegemite, we've got Tim Tams, Kangaroo… various parts of their anatomy. So, we need him to…
Basu: Ooo.
Lowe: Yeah. Or just kangaroo sandwich. I mean, sometimes crocodile sandwich. So, we need to get him to try some of these things.
[BASU LAUGHS]
Lowe: I feel that he might be a bit reticent about it which is highly disappointing if he's not down for this, but that's something I'd like to incorporate. But away from the food, we are gonna just basically talk a lot about the U.S. Women's National Team. I will try and pop in with my England Lionesses every now and then. And it's just us, what we say in England, chewing the cud, which is basically venting when we're frustrated, getting overexcited, normally me, about England, and…
[BASU LAUGHS]
Lowe: And just generally just loving the game and hoping that through humor, especially from Brendan, that we help others enjoy and further enhance the Women's World Cup experience. That's all we're trying to do.
Basu: Awesome. Well, tell me if you can choose just one thing, maybe it's too difficult for you to do. What are you most excited for?
Lowe: I don't know if this is excitement or fear, but if America and England meet in this World Cup. I'm gonna have serious issues, Shumita. I've got serious problems.
[BASU LAUGHS]
[[LOWE SIGHS]]
Basu: Have you searched deep down and asked yourself what you would do, who you'd be rooting for?
Lowe: I mean, I have. I have asked myself. I have asked myself and I'm going to have to go England. But yeah, that's what I'm excited slash terrified about. I also don't really… if England beat the U.S.A., I'm not sure Brendan's turning up. I'm not sure Brendan's turning up for the podcast. I got to be honest. I think he's going to go missing in the Australian Outback because he's going to be devastated. He will not want to hear my joy. But I will say I am very pro U.S.A. as well. So, I'm just excited to see both of those teams play, and hope they live up to everything that their fans want them to live up to. And fingers crossed they don't meet at any point, because that would be awful.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Basu: Well, Rebecca, thank you so much. This got me excited. I'm ready to commit to terrible time zones.
Lowe: Yes! Excellent. Get that weighted blanket, girl.
Basu, Narrating: Rebecca Lowe is host of “NBC” Sports’ Premier League Coverage and Apple News’ unofficial World Cup podcast, “After the Whistle” hosted alongside Brendan Hunt. If you’re listening in the News app now, we’ll queue their preview episode to play next. If not, check it out on Apple Podcasts where you can follow the show to never miss an episode.
And if you’re liking “In Conversation,” follow us on Apple Podcasts, where you can rate and review us.
[MUSIC FADES]