WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.607 --> 00:00:02.572 align:middle line:90% Hey, podcast listeners. Happy New Year. 2 00:00:02.797 --> 00:00:06.641 align:middle line:90% I'm on maternity leave, but I recorded a few interviews before the holidays 3 00:00:06.641 --> 00:00:08.193 align:middle line:90% that I'm excited for you to hear. 4 00:00:08.561 --> 00:00:10.706 align:middle line:90% We'll be playing them throughout the month of January. 5 00:00:11.163 --> 00:00:14.918 align:middle line:90% First up, my conversation with Esther Perel. Enjoy. 6 00:00:15.484 --> 00:00:15.984 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES IN] 7 00:00:18.898 --> 00:00:23.256 align:middle line:90% This is "In Conversation" from Apple News. I'm Shumita Basu. 8 00:00:23.648 --> 00:00:28.200 align:middle line:90% Today, a renowned couples therapist on how to figure out what you're actually 9 00:00:28.200 --> 00:00:28.840 align:middle line:90% fighting about. 10 00:00:31.750 --> 00:00:32.250 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 11 00:00:36.296 --> 00:00:36.796 align:middle line:90% [PENSIVE MUSIC] 12 00:00:37.598 --> 00:00:41.468 align:middle line:90% Esther Perel is the most well-known couples therapist 13 00:00:41.468 --> 00:00:42.315 align:middle line:90% in the world. 14 00:00:42.763 --> 00:00:46.352 align:middle line:90% She's written bestselling books about relationships and infidelity. 15 00:00:46.856 --> 00:00:49.645 align:middle line:90% She's given TED Talks with tens of millions of views. 16 00:00:50.133 --> 00:00:53.355 align:middle line:90% And she has a podcast, "Where Should We Begin?," 17 00:00:53.547 --> 00:00:55.086 align:middle line:90% where you get to hear her sitting down 18 00:00:55.086 --> 00:00:58.179 align:middle line:90% with real couples, helping them work through their issues. 19 00:00:58.419 --> 00:00:58.919 align:middle line:90% [START WHERE SHOULD WE BEGIN? CLIP] 20 00:00:58.919 --> 00:01:03.744 align:middle line:90% He thinks he's been the one saying to you always, things will be all right. 21 00:01:03.744 --> 00:01:04.900 align:middle line:90% I'll take care of it. 22 00:01:05.502 --> 00:01:08.927 align:middle line:90% If you want to bring back the mature adult woman you just met, 23 00:01:09.659 --> 00:01:13.056 align:middle line:90% mediated by the affair, you need to tell him, 24 00:01:13.056 --> 00:01:14.268 align:middle line:90% let me take care of you. 25 00:01:15.217 --> 00:01:21.465 align:middle line:90% Yeah, and even if you don't ask, now I have more material 26 00:01:21.465 --> 00:01:23.307 align:middle line:90% to see what's going on. 27 00:01:24.547 --> 00:01:27.820 align:middle line:90% I can make that step without me waiting for you to ask. 28 00:01:27.820 --> 00:01:28.320 align:middle line:90% [END WHERE SHOULD WE BEGIN? CLIP] 29 00:01:29.063 --> 00:01:33.752 align:middle line:90% Part of what makes Esther so good, so talented, is that she's got 30 00:01:33.752 --> 00:01:37.586 align:middle line:90% this almost surgical precision in being able to identify 31 00:01:37.586 --> 00:01:39.412 align:middle line:90% what's really driving a fight. 32 00:01:39.857 --> 00:01:42.652 align:middle line:90% I'm not so interested in what you're fighting about. 33 00:01:43.270 --> 00:01:46.053 align:middle line:90% Kids, money, sex, in-laws, work. 34 00:01:46.996 --> 00:01:50.046 align:middle line:90% But I am very interested in what you're fighting for. 35 00:01:50.579 --> 00:01:54.898 align:middle line:90% And she says what you're fighting for is often not visible. 36 00:01:55.243 --> 00:01:56.283 align:middle line:90% It's underneath. 37 00:01:56.496 --> 00:02:00.222 align:middle line:90% I feel like I'm in the sand and I'm digging underneath, 38 00:02:00.627 --> 00:02:03.905 align:middle line:90% but not just for the sake of digging, but for the sake of change. 39 00:02:04.926 --> 00:02:09.288 align:middle line:90% It's this skill of hers that makes listening to her work so engaging. 40 00:02:09.948 --> 00:02:12.100 align:middle line:90% It almost doesn't matter what the topic is 41 00:02:12.100 --> 00:02:13.525 align:middle line:90% in any particular session. 42 00:02:13.841 --> 00:02:16.454 align:middle line:90% You'll end up hearing some lesson, some takeaway, 43 00:02:16.454 --> 00:02:19.608 align:middle line:90% that relates to your own life and your own relationships, 44 00:02:19.608 --> 00:02:21.354 align:middle line:90% romantic or otherwise. 45 00:02:22.403 --> 00:02:27.080 align:middle line:90% Season six of "Where Should We Begin? With Esther Perel" is out now, 46 00:02:27.472 --> 00:02:29.617 align:middle line:90% with a new subscription through Apple Podcasts 47 00:02:29.617 --> 00:02:32.041 align:middle line:90% that gives you access to exclusive content. 48 00:02:32.817 --> 00:02:37.066 align:middle line:90% In my conversation with Esther, we talked about how she approaches her work, 49 00:02:37.250 --> 00:02:42.427 align:middle line:90% what she sees as particularly challenging about relationships today, and her tips 50 00:02:42.427 --> 00:02:44.179 align:middle line:90% for working through disagreements. 51 00:02:44.724 --> 00:02:47.511 align:middle line:90% And be sure to stick around to the end of our conversation 52 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:51.865 align:middle line:90% when you'll hear Esther give me some advice about my relationship. 53 00:02:53.767 --> 00:02:54.267 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 54 00:02:54.626 --> 00:02:58.413 align:middle line:90% I'm a narratively inclined therapist and so for me, 55 00:02:58.413 --> 00:03:02.731 align:middle line:90% I am very much focused on relationships and relationships are stories. 56 00:03:03.299 --> 00:03:07.046 align:middle line:90% When you pick a partner, that partner comes with a history, 57 00:03:07.494 --> 00:03:13.262 align:middle line:90% comes with a cast of characters, comes with a plot, comes with a crisis, 58 00:03:13.786 --> 00:03:17.068 align:middle line:90% comes with all the elements of a story. 59 00:03:17.068 --> 00:03:19.000 align:middle line:90% And sometimes the story is a Greek tragedy, 60 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:21.330 align:middle line:90% and sometimes the story is a tragicomedy, 61 00:03:21.330 --> 00:03:24.196 align:middle line:90% and [CHUCKLES] there's different types of stories. 62 00:03:24.624 --> 00:03:27.053 align:middle line:90% And sometimes they're stuck in the story. 63 00:03:27.506 --> 00:03:31.708 align:middle line:90% They are trapped in the dominance of the singular narrative, 64 00:03:32.244 --> 00:03:33.429 align:middle line:90% the singular story. 65 00:03:33.837 --> 00:03:38.047 align:middle line:90% And when you help people experience something new, behave differently, 66 00:03:38.116 --> 00:03:42.134 align:middle line:90% change, relate differently, you're changing the story. 67 00:03:42.891 --> 00:03:47.306 align:middle line:90% One move. It's like in a movie, one move, "Sliding Doors," 68 00:03:47.754 --> 00:03:51.316 align:middle line:90% one move, and the story unfolds completely differently. 69 00:03:51.668 --> 00:03:55.591 align:middle line:90% So how do we rewrite a different story? How do you want to edit the story? 70 00:03:55.591 --> 00:03:58.036 align:middle line:90% How do you want to make that your own story? 71 00:03:58.373 --> 00:04:01.786 align:middle line:90% And so I think in these terms, and they're evocative. 72 00:04:02.300 --> 00:04:06.505 align:middle line:90% Mm. You know, there's something else that I've heard you comment on, 73 00:04:06.505 --> 00:04:11.295 align:middle line:90% and that's this idea that our expectations 74 00:04:11.295 --> 00:04:14.702 align:middle line:90% of our partners today are perhaps just too unrealistic. 75 00:04:15.207 --> 00:04:19.910 align:middle line:90% That we all set this was very high bar, especially this is kind of Western society 76 00:04:19.910 --> 00:04:22.647 align:middle line:90% mostly that I'm talking about, but that the idea that your partner 77 00:04:22.647 --> 00:04:25.366 align:middle line:90% needs to be everything, needs to be everything to you. 78 00:04:26.114 --> 00:04:30.698 align:middle line:90% Can you talk about this idea and how you think so many people 79 00:04:30.698 --> 00:04:31.730 align:middle line:90% have arrived here? 80 00:04:32.278 --> 00:04:35.069 align:middle line:90% Here's what I think happened in a very short amount of time. 81 00:04:35.677 --> 00:04:36.622 align:middle line:90% For a long time, 82 00:04:37.191 --> 00:04:41.386 align:middle line:90% coupledom, marriage, which was primarily to create family, 83 00:04:41.739 --> 00:04:45.133 align:middle line:90% was a production economy. 84 00:04:45.498 --> 00:04:49.173 align:middle line:90% We will have children, we will have companionship, family life, 85 00:04:49.173 --> 00:04:50.282 align:middle line:90% economic support. 86 00:04:51.172 --> 00:04:53.011 align:middle line:90% And then from a production economy, 87 00:04:53.211 --> 00:04:55.986 align:middle line:90% our relationships became a service economy. 88 00:04:56.475 --> 00:05:02.037 align:middle line:90% We will have also love and affection and belonging and trust. 89 00:05:03.314 --> 00:05:07.445 align:middle line:90% And that service economy was the rise of romanticism 90 00:05:07.445 --> 00:05:09.093 align:middle line:90% and the rise of individualism. 91 00:05:10.186 --> 00:05:15.892 align:middle line:90% And then we began to go even further and we created the identity economy. 92 00:05:16.381 --> 00:05:19.704 align:middle line:90% Now I'm going to meet one person to help me become the best version 93 00:05:19.704 --> 00:05:20.707 align:middle line:90% of myself. 94 00:05:21.533 --> 00:05:26.195 align:middle line:90% And I'm going to find a soulmate, the one and only. 95 00:05:27.131 --> 00:05:32.421 align:middle line:90% And what you find is that we want one person to give us companionship, 96 00:05:32.517 --> 00:05:36.907 align:middle line:90% economic support, co-parenting, intellectual equal, best friend, 97 00:05:37.139 --> 00:05:39.372 align:middle line:90% confidant, passionate lover, 98 00:05:39.908 --> 00:05:42.609 align:middle line:90% and we also hope to find that person on an app. 99 00:05:43.982 --> 00:05:47.748 align:middle line:90% And the unprecedented expectations come also 100 00:05:48.036 --> 00:05:50.730 align:middle line:90% with unprecedented disappointments. 101 00:05:51.482 --> 00:05:55.685 align:middle line:90% So the best relationships of today, says Eli Finkel in his book, 102 00:05:55.685 --> 00:05:59.123 align:middle line:90% "The All or Nothing Marriage," the best relationships of today 103 00:05:59.219 --> 00:06:02.121 align:middle line:90% are often much better than the relationships in history, 104 00:06:02.121 --> 00:06:05.406 align:middle line:90% because it's fantastic to be on top of Mount Olympus. 105 00:06:06.188 --> 00:06:07.885 align:middle line:90% But not everybody gets there. 106 00:06:08.405 --> 00:06:12.656 align:middle line:90% And so that's where people become very disappointed. 107 00:06:12.920 --> 00:06:17.487 align:middle line:90% And that unprecedented set of expectation, one person to give us 108 00:06:17.487 --> 00:06:20.089 align:middle line:90% what once an entire village used to provide, 109 00:06:20.875 --> 00:06:25.848 align:middle line:90% gets met with another ideology, which is the right to happiness. 110 00:06:26.152 --> 00:06:28.697 align:middle line:90% Which happiness used to be for the afterlife. 111 00:06:28.894 --> 00:06:31.506 align:middle line:90% And now it's not just an option, it's a mandate. 112 00:06:31.951 --> 00:06:33.531 align:middle line:90% I deserve to be happy. 113 00:06:34.159 --> 00:06:37.873 align:middle line:90% And so if I deserve to be happy, I don't make so many concessions 114 00:06:37.873 --> 00:06:40.285 align:middle line:90% around the expectations that are not met. 115 00:06:41.254 --> 00:06:45.263 align:middle line:90% And then added the next thing is that we lack the skills. 116 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:49.917 align:middle line:90% We lack the skills to actually help us climb 117 00:06:50.609 --> 00:06:53.317 align:middle line:90% this beautiful mountain of modern love. 118 00:06:53.669 --> 00:06:58.390 align:middle line:90% Well, so how do you… when you recognize that that is maybe the dynamic 119 00:06:58.390 --> 00:07:03.531 align:middle line:90% at play when you're speaking with couples, how do you coach them? 120 00:07:03.531 --> 00:07:08.208 align:middle line:90% How do you guide them through recognizing that that might be an idea they're holding 121 00:07:08.208 --> 00:07:09.056 align:middle line:90% in their heads? 122 00:07:09.500 --> 00:07:13.365 align:middle line:90% And what is the idea that you try and move them toward? 123 00:07:14.041 --> 00:07:19.839 align:middle line:90% A question that I like to ask is basically mining for the origin story. 124 00:07:20.135 --> 00:07:21.355 align:middle line:90% How did you meet? 125 00:07:21.355 --> 00:07:22.643 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I've noticed you do this a lot. 126 00:07:22.760 --> 00:07:25.052 align:middle line:90% Usually at the very beginning, usually right off the bat. 127 00:07:25.124 --> 00:07:29.301 align:middle line:90% It tells me a lot. Of all people, why her? Why them? 128 00:07:30.014 --> 00:07:32.602 align:middle line:90% You know, what was it that drew you to them? 129 00:07:33.859 --> 00:07:38.300 align:middle line:90% And in what way do you see your partner completing you? 130 00:07:39.015 --> 00:07:43.507 align:middle line:90% What is it that your partner brings to you that is their proclivity 131 00:07:43.799 --> 00:07:45.753 align:middle line:90% that matches your vulnerability? 132 00:07:46.434 --> 00:07:51.421 align:middle line:90% Because I am very much a thinker of complementarity in relationships. 133 00:07:51.841 --> 00:07:54.421 align:middle line:90% Not of difference, but of complementarity. 134 00:07:54.930 --> 00:07:57.028 align:middle line:90% The differences, when they work well together, 135 00:07:57.028 --> 00:08:01.194 align:middle line:90% they create a tremendous sense of complementarity and interdependence 136 00:08:01.838 --> 00:08:04.082 align:middle line:90% rather than a standoff. 137 00:08:04.298 --> 00:08:10.664 align:middle line:90% So that's a question that often helps me in writing the story. 138 00:08:11.208 --> 00:08:12.421 align:middle line:90% What did you see? 139 00:08:12.845 --> 00:08:15.463 align:middle line:90% And often you have the themes of complementarity, 140 00:08:15.463 --> 00:08:19.343 align:middle line:90% a very common one is one person is experienced as solid, 141 00:08:19.691 --> 00:08:25.636 align:middle line:90% one person brings structure, stability, reliability, predictability, 142 00:08:25.796 --> 00:08:32.729 align:middle line:90% and the other person is more of the person who is fluid, exploratory, discovery, 143 00:08:32.729 --> 00:08:35.856 align:middle line:90% maybe risk-taking, and adventurous. 144 00:08:36.196 --> 00:08:41.495 align:middle line:90% And these two basically represent the two fundamental sets of human need, 145 00:08:41.916 --> 00:08:43.172 align:middle line:90% security and freedom. 146 00:08:43.732 --> 00:08:47.666 align:middle line:90% And so they often are represented by the characters in the relationship. 147 00:08:48.242 --> 00:08:52.176 align:middle line:90% And that often leads you to notice that there is one person 148 00:08:52.176 --> 00:08:54.544 align:middle line:90% that is often more afraid of losing the other, 149 00:08:55.032 --> 00:08:58.318 align:middle line:90% and one person that is often more afraid of losing themselves. 150 00:08:59.119 --> 00:09:01.856 align:middle line:90% One person more in touch with the fear of abandonment, 151 00:09:02.160 --> 00:09:06.241 align:middle line:90% and one person often more in touch with the fear of suffocation. 152 00:09:06.697 --> 00:09:09.652 align:middle line:90% And so how do they play around that difference? 153 00:09:09.652 --> 00:09:13.020 align:middle line:90% What is the complementarity? It's a major theme of exploration 154 00:09:13.020 --> 00:09:13.787 align:middle line:90% for my work. 155 00:09:14.743 --> 00:09:20.099 align:middle line:90% What kinds of scenarios or types of conflicts do you find 156 00:09:20.099 --> 00:09:22.497 align:middle line:90% personally most challenging to work with? 157 00:09:24.142 --> 00:09:26.636 align:middle line:90% It's not the type of conflict. 158 00:09:26.636 --> 00:09:30.691 align:middle line:90% It's the way that the couple is organized around the conflict. 159 00:09:31.388 --> 00:09:34.902 align:middle line:90% It's the transaction around it. It's not the topic itself. 160 00:09:34.902 --> 00:09:38.741 align:middle line:90% I mean, look, there are three main dances in conflicts in couples, right? 161 00:09:38.741 --> 00:09:42.127 align:middle line:90% There is fight-fight, fight-flight, and flight-flight. 162 00:09:43.104 --> 00:09:46.555 align:middle line:90% When you have the fight-fight and you have escalating couples 163 00:09:46.555 --> 00:09:48.227 align:middle line:90% that in a split second, 164 00:09:48.640 --> 00:09:53.095 align:middle line:90% you have 20 years of their relationship thrown into the sentences 165 00:09:53.095 --> 00:09:56.925 align:middle line:90% and everything that one person says makes the other person say 166 00:09:56.925 --> 00:10:01.023 align:middle line:90% something bigger and nastier or more demeaning, 167 00:10:01.372 --> 00:10:05.234 align:middle line:90% and at the end, you have two people who sit there at their extremes, 168 00:10:05.234 --> 00:10:09.437 align:middle line:90% completely polarized with a huge polluted space in between, 169 00:10:11.321 --> 00:10:12.502 align:middle line:90% it's a challenge. 170 00:10:12.502 --> 00:10:15.416 align:middle line:90% It's a challenge because they fight like they have nothing to lose 171 00:10:15.416 --> 00:10:17.142 align:middle line:90% when they have everything to lose. 172 00:10:17.887 --> 00:10:22.263 align:middle line:90% But they're dissociated even from what is important to them, for example. 173 00:10:22.623 --> 00:10:26.703 align:middle line:90% So those kinds of situations you have to be very clear, 174 00:10:26.703 --> 00:10:32.411 align:middle line:90% very proximal, very involved and really be an orchestra conductor. 175 00:10:32.411 --> 00:10:38.815 align:middle line:90% And you stop-- You have a baton and [CHUCKLES] you gently save people 176 00:10:38.815 --> 00:10:41.321 align:middle line:90% from themselves, from destroying themselves, 177 00:10:41.321 --> 00:10:43.558 align:middle line:90% from destroying whatever is good between them. 178 00:10:43.882 --> 00:10:46.388 align:middle line:90% Those types of situations can be really difficult. 179 00:10:46.388 --> 00:10:49.741 align:middle line:90% But so are the ones on the other side, where you have two people, 180 00:10:49.741 --> 00:10:52.869 align:middle line:90% and they raise an eyebrow, and you see the contempt, 181 00:10:53.229 --> 00:10:56.155 align:middle line:90% and they have that smirk, and you see the dismissal. 182 00:10:56.463 --> 00:10:58.991 align:middle line:90% And contempt is a bad one. 183 00:10:58.991 --> 00:11:02.532 align:middle line:90% It's flight-flight. Yeah. People who are just facing opposite sides. 184 00:11:02.532 --> 00:11:06.061 align:middle line:90% Yes, yes. And they look at each other and say, "You continue, you want to talk, 185 00:11:06.061 --> 00:11:09.494 align:middle line:90% you talk. I have nothing to say. I really don't see the point. 186 00:11:09.494 --> 00:11:11.291 align:middle line:90% [CHUCKLES] I'm so long gone." 187 00:11:11.291 --> 00:11:13.919 align:middle line:90% You know, it's the invisible divorce that lives in the room 188 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:15.370 align:middle line:90% as Megan Fleming calls it. 189 00:11:15.512 --> 00:11:17.113 align:middle line:90% So those are challenging too. 190 00:11:17.622 --> 00:11:21.196 align:middle line:90% You know, it's challenging when people are so defensive 191 00:11:21.703 --> 00:11:25.432 align:middle line:90% that they're really not able to take any accountability. 192 00:11:25.648 --> 00:11:28.740 align:middle line:90% Like, I'll say nine things, and then you'll basically pick 193 00:11:28.740 --> 00:11:30.748 align:middle line:90% the one thing that you can have an argument with 194 00:11:30.748 --> 00:11:32.133 align:middle line:90% the one thing you disagree with. 195 00:11:32.133 --> 00:11:35.405 align:middle line:90% Why don't we start with the one thing you actually think I have a point? 196 00:11:36.013 --> 00:11:39.410 align:middle line:90% You know, why don't we look for something that we connect on? 197 00:11:39.410 --> 00:11:41.919 align:middle line:90% Is that one of your tools, that you look for something… 198 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:45.011 align:middle line:90% you try to start by pointing out a point of agreement? 199 00:11:45.011 --> 00:11:48.009 align:middle line:90% Yeah, in this situation, if I say to you everything, 200 00:11:48.009 --> 00:11:49.468 align:middle line:90% I tell you everything that happened, 201 00:11:49.468 --> 00:11:51.260 align:middle line:90% and then you say, "No, it wasn't Wednesday." 202 00:11:51.846 --> 00:11:52.346 align:middle line:90% [BOTH LAUGH] 203 00:11:52.845 --> 00:11:55.310 align:middle line:90% Does it really matter? "No, it was Thursday." 204 00:11:55.606 --> 00:11:59.032 align:middle line:90% Does it really make a difference? Like, what are we talking about? 205 00:11:59.352 --> 00:12:02.741 align:middle line:90% So, you know, then I just say, it's fantastic. 206 00:12:02.741 --> 00:12:08.147 align:middle line:90% Your partner said A, B, C, they came home, they tried to engage 207 00:12:08.147 --> 00:12:10.020 align:middle line:90% with you. There was no acknowledgement. 208 00:12:10.241 --> 00:12:14.230 align:middle line:90% And the only thing you find to say is that they have their dates wrong. 209 00:12:14.230 --> 00:12:15.455 align:middle line:90% It's so interesting. 210 00:12:16.243 --> 00:12:20.583 align:middle line:90% So, you try to-- yes, you create a bridge. 211 00:12:20.583 --> 00:12:24.999 align:middle line:90% I mean, basically, when people are disconnected and ruptured 212 00:12:24.999 --> 00:12:26.544 align:middle line:90% and in a state of breach, 213 00:12:27.125 --> 00:12:31.052 align:middle line:90% you look at what is the bridge that you can create, 214 00:12:31.301 --> 00:12:35.171 align:middle line:90% where potentially each one will go and look what's on the other side 215 00:12:35.267 --> 00:12:36.097 align:middle line:90% of the bank. 216 00:12:36.857 --> 00:12:39.809 align:middle line:90% Well, let's talk about some of the specific stories that we hear 217 00:12:39.809 --> 00:12:42.154 align:middle line:90% in season six of the podcast. 218 00:12:42.154 --> 00:12:45.979 align:middle line:90% There's an episode that I listen to called "Tell Me I'm Not Alone," 219 00:12:46.187 --> 00:12:48.889 align:middle line:90% where you speak with a heterosexual couple. 220 00:12:49.261 --> 00:12:50.811 align:middle line:90% They have a 10 year age gap. 221 00:12:51.524 --> 00:12:54.054 align:middle line:90% The woman in this couple had an affair. 222 00:12:54.375 --> 00:12:57.828 align:middle line:90% And the way that she describes it, hearing her talk about it, 223 00:12:57.828 --> 00:12:59.379 align:middle line:90% she describes it as a way 224 00:12:59.852 --> 00:13:04.466 align:middle line:90% that she was able to think about herself in a different way, 225 00:13:04.650 --> 00:13:07.044 align:middle line:90% establish her independence in a different way. 226 00:13:07.196 --> 00:13:07.696 align:middle line:90% [START WHERE SHOULD WE BEGIN? CLIP] 227 00:13:07.696 --> 00:13:11.938 align:middle line:90% But I think it changed me by making me be more in myself, 228 00:13:11.958 --> 00:13:14.040 align:middle line:90% in a way. I don't know if that makes sense. 229 00:13:15.581 --> 00:13:19.563 align:middle line:90% Yes, it does. And who is the woman that's come home? 230 00:13:20.636 --> 00:13:21.136 align:middle line:90% Now? 231 00:13:23.978 --> 00:13:26.987 align:middle line:90% I think it's a woman who knows how to be [CHUCKLING] a woman. 232 00:13:27.664 --> 00:13:28.284 align:middle line:90% Say more. 233 00:13:31.163 --> 00:13:34.296 align:middle line:90% It's a process, so I know it's like the beginning of the road, 234 00:13:34.296 --> 00:13:41.140 align:middle line:90% but there's a confidence and a kind of assertiveness 235 00:13:42.076 --> 00:13:46.758 align:middle line:90% and a more presence as an individual in the relationship 236 00:13:47.186 --> 00:13:50.759 align:middle line:90% and not just the mother of or the wife of. 237 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:51.259 align:middle line:90% [END WHERE SHOULD WE BEGIN? CLIP] 238 00:13:51.259 --> 00:13:55.132 align:middle line:90% And you say that that's pretty common in affairs, that you have this person 239 00:13:55.132 --> 00:13:59.413 align:middle line:90% who feels good about what they've learned about themselves 240 00:13:59.413 --> 00:14:00.805 align:middle line:90% through the transgression, 241 00:14:01.165 --> 00:14:05.891 align:middle line:90% and also feels terrible about how it hurt their partner. 242 00:14:07.031 --> 00:14:10.484 align:middle line:90% Can you talk a little bit about how those two things can exist 243 00:14:10.484 --> 00:14:11.400 align:middle line:90% at the same time? 244 00:14:12.932 --> 00:14:18.494 align:middle line:90% A sentence that I began to hear a lot when I wrote "The State of Affairs," 245 00:14:18.494 --> 00:14:24.128 align:middle line:90% which was the culmination of a ten-year exploration of infidelity, 246 00:14:25.704 --> 00:14:30.207 align:middle line:90% is that people would say to me, "It's not that I wanted to leave 247 00:14:30.207 --> 00:14:31.268 align:middle line:90% my partner. 248 00:14:31.872 --> 00:14:34.509 align:middle line:90% It's that I wanted to leave who I had become. 249 00:14:35.713 --> 00:14:38.364 align:middle line:90% It's not that I was looking for another person, 250 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:42.116 align:middle line:90% but I was looking for lost parts of myself." 251 00:14:44.074 --> 00:14:48.124 align:middle line:90% Which meant that the relationship, the extramarital relationship, 252 00:14:48.792 --> 00:14:54.695 align:middle line:90% was not a reaction to the couple, but an internal yearning and longing. 253 00:14:55.260 --> 00:14:58.736 align:middle line:90% And I began to understand that some affairs, 254 00:14:58.736 --> 00:15:00.891 align:middle line:90% because there's many different types of affairs, 255 00:15:01.487 --> 00:15:04.321 align:middle line:90% are often about that yearning and that longing. 256 00:15:04.853 --> 00:15:08.269 align:middle line:90% And that that does not preclude at all, 257 00:15:08.897 --> 00:15:12.807 align:middle line:90% at the heart of affairs, you find often yearning 258 00:15:12.807 --> 00:15:16.937 align:middle line:90% and longing, but you also have betrayal and violation of trust and a breach 259 00:15:17.369 --> 00:15:18.077 align:middle line:90% and hurt. 260 00:15:18.513 --> 00:15:23.724 align:middle line:90% And these two are existing at the nexus of this very, very complicated thing 261 00:15:23.724 --> 00:15:25.924 align:middle line:90% called affairs and infidelity. 262 00:15:26.572 --> 00:15:31.763 align:middle line:90% People, if they have the capacity to say, you know, what it meant to me is this 263 00:15:32.135 --> 00:15:35.319 align:middle line:90% but what it did to you is something completely different, 264 00:15:35.319 --> 00:15:36.135 align:middle line:90% and I get it. 265 00:15:37.127 --> 00:15:41.483 align:middle line:90% You know, it also offers a much better avenue for repair. 266 00:15:42.160 --> 00:15:44.322 align:middle line:90% So it's very important. 267 00:15:44.322 --> 00:15:48.641 align:middle line:90% One of the most important diagnostics for couples recovering 268 00:15:48.641 --> 00:15:52.616 align:middle line:90% from affair is the ability of the person who transgressed 269 00:15:52.820 --> 00:15:56.426 align:middle line:90% to be able to express guilt and remorse 270 00:15:56.939 --> 00:16:02.242 align:middle line:90% for hurting the other person, even if their relationship on the outside 271 00:16:02.242 --> 00:16:04.566 align:middle line:90% made sense to them or was important to them, 272 00:16:04.882 --> 00:16:07.338 align:middle line:90% or was revelatory to them, irrelevant of that. 273 00:16:08.083 --> 00:16:12.984 align:middle line:90% Inside this relationship, it destroyed something so fundamental. 274 00:16:13.420 --> 00:16:14.545 align:middle line:90% Can you attend to that? 275 00:16:14.738 --> 00:16:18.108 align:middle line:90% And the ability to do that is one of the most important things 276 00:16:18.108 --> 00:16:19.502 align:middle line:90% in the repair experience. 277 00:16:20.175 --> 00:16:23.544 align:middle line:90% I'm guessing that a lot of the reasons why infidelity might be one 278 00:16:23.544 --> 00:16:28.956 align:middle line:90% of the stated reason why people have arrived in front of you 279 00:16:28.956 --> 00:16:30.177 align:middle line:90% to talk about something, 280 00:16:30.895 --> 00:16:33.835 align:middle line:90% probably they're there because of the infidelity, 281 00:16:33.835 --> 00:16:35.217 align:middle line:90% but because they want to work through it. 282 00:16:35.397 --> 00:16:39.051 align:middle line:90% They intend to keep the relationship going and they want some advice and help 283 00:16:39.051 --> 00:16:40.011 align:middle line:90% and how to do that. 284 00:16:40.535 --> 00:16:43.091 align:middle line:90% But I imagine that there is a lot of different endings 285 00:16:43.091 --> 00:16:44.457 align:middle line:90% to an infidelity story. 286 00:16:45.314 --> 00:16:48.600 align:middle line:90% Do you ever find yourself arriving at a different conclusion 287 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:50.104 align:middle line:90% than the couple sitting in front of you 288 00:16:50.264 --> 00:16:53.121 align:middle line:90% about what the best ending might be for them? 289 00:16:53.874 --> 00:16:59.041 align:middle line:90% Yes, you know, people come to the therapist sometimes 290 00:16:59.041 --> 00:17:01.355 align:middle line:90% because they want to work on their relationship, 291 00:17:01.651 --> 00:17:03.883 align:middle line:90% sometimes because they want to tell you 292 00:17:03.883 --> 00:17:06.441 align:middle line:90% that they went to a therapist to work on their relationship 293 00:17:06.441 --> 00:17:08.737 align:middle line:90% but they actually were on their way to the lawyers. 294 00:17:09.701 --> 00:17:13.354 align:middle line:90% So what people say isn't necessarily what they do, 295 00:17:13.588 --> 00:17:16.269 align:middle line:90% and what people do isn't necessarily what they say. 296 00:17:16.726 --> 00:17:21.191 align:middle line:90% So that's the sleuth work of a therapist is to find out 297 00:17:21.191 --> 00:17:24.190 align:middle line:90% why are you here? Why are you really here? 298 00:17:24.190 --> 00:17:26.111 align:middle line:90% And what is it that you really want me to do? 299 00:17:26.428 --> 00:17:29.614 align:middle line:90% You know, a lot of couples therapy is often a drop-off center. 300 00:17:30.322 --> 00:17:33.223 align:middle line:90% It's one person brings the other and says we have a problem 301 00:17:33.223 --> 00:17:34.841 align:middle line:90% and my problem is my partner 302 00:17:34.841 --> 00:17:37.775 align:middle line:90% so fix it and I'll help you because I'm an expert 303 00:17:37.775 --> 00:17:39.344 align:middle line:90% on what's wrong with my partner. 304 00:17:39.864 --> 00:17:42.863 align:middle line:90% And what people think they're coming to work on isn't necessarily 305 00:17:42.863 --> 00:17:44.463 align:middle line:90% what they're going to end up doing 306 00:17:44.463 --> 00:17:48.119 align:middle line:90% because you may have an understanding that actually what is holding them back, 307 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:50.695 align:middle line:90% what is standing in the way, what is hurting them both, 308 00:17:50.951 --> 00:17:55.609 align:middle line:90% what is the source of conflict is not exactly what they see. 309 00:17:55.609 --> 00:17:59.533 align:middle line:90% And this is where maybe another line you have heard me say, 310 00:17:59.533 --> 00:18:03.373 align:middle line:90% because it is also a guiding principle for me, is that when I see people 311 00:18:04.529 --> 00:18:08.556 align:middle line:90% and they come in with a story, my goal is that they leave 312 00:18:08.556 --> 00:18:09.825 align:middle line:90% with a different story. 313 00:18:11.141 --> 00:18:15.806 align:middle line:90% And that means that I infuse hope. I infuse possibilities. 314 00:18:16.346 --> 00:18:20.735 align:middle line:90% I make them see this completely different of what they thought it was 315 00:18:20.735 --> 00:18:24.248 align:middle line:90% because they're so certain, and certainty is the enemy of change. 316 00:18:25.201 --> 00:18:30.318 align:middle line:90% And it's a host of elements that you put together to decide 317 00:18:30.414 --> 00:18:31.958 align:middle line:90% where is this couple going. 318 00:18:32.315 --> 00:18:38.919 align:middle line:90% And some people will stay together and bite on a bitter bone till the end, 319 00:18:38.919 --> 00:18:41.647 align:middle line:90% but they can't be together, but they can't be apart either. 320 00:18:42.120 --> 00:18:43.689 align:middle line:90% They never trust each other again. 321 00:18:44.322 --> 00:18:48.405 align:middle line:90% They live in a marital cell and the crisis and the breach lives 322 00:18:48.405 --> 00:18:52.461 align:middle line:90% at the heart of their relationship and they have no capacity to forgive 323 00:18:52.641 --> 00:18:55.904 align:middle line:90% or to take responsibility or to work it through, to resolve it, 324 00:18:56.472 --> 00:18:58.000 align:middle line:90% to just make a decision about it. 325 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:01.621 align:middle line:90% Other groups, you know, they decide that they want to put this whole thing 326 00:19:01.621 --> 00:19:05.945 align:middle line:90% behind them and they want life to go on and they want to regain their stability 327 00:19:05.945 --> 00:19:07.234 align:middle line:90% as fast as they can. 328 00:19:07.587 --> 00:19:12.035 align:middle line:90% And for other people, they understand that the crisis is also an opportunity, 329 00:19:12.796 --> 00:19:17.413 align:middle line:90% they say, this resets the whole scorecard of the relationship. 330 00:19:17.829 --> 00:19:21.252 align:middle line:90% Many times you will see today in the West that we will have two 331 00:19:21.252 --> 00:19:23.694 align:middle line:90% or three relationships in our adult life. 332 00:19:25.132 --> 00:19:27.592 align:middle line:90% And some of us will do it with the same person. 333 00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:31.888 align:middle line:90% But your first marriage is over. Or your first relationship is over. 334 00:19:32.529 --> 00:19:36.435 align:middle line:90% And those people use the steam 335 00:19:36.651 --> 00:19:40.662 align:middle line:90% of this crisis to redefine themselves, to decide 336 00:19:41.446 --> 00:19:44.192 align:middle line:90% what is the effect of the affair on the relationship, 337 00:19:44.192 --> 00:19:46.605 align:middle line:90% but what will the relationship do with the affair? 338 00:19:47.802 --> 00:19:51.075 align:middle line:90% And what importance it will give it, and what meaning it will give it 339 00:19:51.195 --> 00:19:53.890 align:middle line:90% in the long history of two people. 340 00:19:54.448 --> 00:19:57.302 align:middle line:90% Let's talk about another episode, another story that we hear about. 341 00:19:57.302 --> 00:19:59.707 align:middle line:90% This one, the episode was called "Donor Daddy." 342 00:20:00.567 --> 00:20:05.346 align:middle line:90% You speak with a heterosexual couple where the man donated sperm 343 00:20:05.346 --> 00:20:07.709 align:middle line:90% to a friend who ended up having twins. 344 00:20:08.286 --> 00:20:13.733 align:middle line:90% And he not only didn't tell his wife about it, he lied about it 345 00:20:13.997 --> 00:20:15.326 align:middle line:90% when she asked him about it. 346 00:20:15.847 --> 00:20:17.968 align:middle line:90% And the couple had had a very happy relationship 347 00:20:17.968 --> 00:20:19.101 align:middle line:90% before this happened. 348 00:20:19.380 --> 00:20:19.880 align:middle line:90% [START WHERE SHOULD WE BEGIN? CLIP] 349 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:24.569 align:middle line:90% Our relationship, it's been fantastic. 350 00:20:24.569 --> 00:20:26.298 align:middle line:90% It's been great. 351 00:20:26.298 --> 00:20:33.043 align:middle line:90% Two weeks before, a week before, the mom had texted to reveal this, 352 00:20:33.472 --> 00:20:36.781 align:middle line:90% we were having the discussion laying in bed, like, are we really this lucky 353 00:20:36.781 --> 00:20:39.009 align:middle line:90% to have this good of a life? 354 00:20:40.625 --> 00:20:44.947 align:middle line:90% We would say that probably every other month. 355 00:20:45.335 --> 00:20:50.002 align:middle line:90% We would have a moment of "I love you so much. We're so lucky." 356 00:20:51.103 --> 00:20:56.319 align:middle line:90% Which is part of the confusion for me to realize I was being lied to 357 00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:01.812 align:middle line:90% all of that time when I was so emotionally intimate 358 00:21:01.812 --> 00:21:02.568 align:middle line:90% with him. 359 00:21:04.698 --> 00:21:10.199 align:middle line:90% That moment felt so pure and perhaps it was. 360 00:21:11.276 --> 00:21:14.075 align:middle line:90% But if this huge weight was on his shoulders 361 00:21:14.075 --> 00:21:16.040 align:middle line:90% and now he's feeling such relief, 362 00:21:16.617 --> 00:21:19.829 align:middle line:90% that makes me believe that it must have still been on his shoulders 363 00:21:19.829 --> 00:21:22.557 align:middle line:90% when he was pretending like everything was great. 364 00:21:22.557 --> 00:21:23.057 align:middle line:90% [END WHERE SHOULD WE BEGIN? CLIP] 365 00:21:23.202 --> 00:21:25.376 align:middle line:90% Tell me a little bit more about what you were thinking 366 00:21:25.376 --> 00:21:28.186 align:middle line:90% about how to help this couple think through this. 367 00:21:30.385 --> 00:21:35.347 align:middle line:90% It's a very, very special session and very moving. 368 00:21:35.347 --> 00:21:38.633 align:middle line:90% And she's… I mean, they're wonderful people, 369 00:21:38.633 --> 00:21:44.039 align:middle line:90% but she's phenomenal in her ability to hold multiple parts. 370 00:21:44.487 --> 00:21:47.808 align:middle line:90% Secrets come in many forms. 371 00:21:48.613 --> 00:21:53.383 align:middle line:90% This is 12 or 13 years later. This is not like a few months after. 372 00:21:54.091 --> 00:21:58.521 align:middle line:90% And you have your life and you say, we have an incredible life together. 373 00:21:59.719 --> 00:22:06.019 align:middle line:90% And at the same time you ask yourself, who is this man that I love so much? 374 00:22:06.544 --> 00:22:11.299 align:middle line:90% And she has a degenerative illness at this moment 375 00:22:11.299 --> 00:22:15.811 align:middle line:90% and he's taking beautiful care of her so she depends on him as well. 376 00:22:15.923 --> 00:22:19.181 align:middle line:90% She doesn't have the same freedom to make decisions 377 00:22:19.181 --> 00:22:21.395 align:middle line:90% that she would have had a few years before. 378 00:22:22.035 --> 00:22:26.539 align:middle line:90% And so she tells him, who are you? 379 00:22:27.196 --> 00:22:28.948 align:middle line:90% What can I believe? 380 00:22:29.105 --> 00:22:31.466 align:middle line:90% What other bomb are you going to throw at me? 381 00:22:32.091 --> 00:22:36.346 align:middle line:90% And how do I combine that with the fact that we have a very beautiful, 382 00:22:36.346 --> 00:22:38.652 align:middle line:90% rich, loving life? 383 00:22:39.453 --> 00:22:42.587 align:middle line:90% And without my having to second guess myself. 384 00:22:42.871 --> 00:22:43.371 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 385 00:22:43.371 --> 00:22:47.093 align:middle line:90% Now, the reason I say the secret is like a mushroom is because 386 00:22:47.093 --> 00:22:49.497 align:middle line:90% when I hide something from you, 387 00:22:50.118 --> 00:22:53.811 align:middle line:90% and I don't want to tell you where I was between four and six, 388 00:22:54.279 --> 00:22:56.884 align:middle line:90% then it becomes more difficult for me to tell you where I was 389 00:22:56.884 --> 00:22:58.020 align:middle line:90% between two and four. 390 00:22:59.789 --> 00:23:04.386 align:middle line:90% So I start to delete more pieces and more pieces. 391 00:23:04.767 --> 00:23:11.701 align:middle line:90% And the more you live with secrecy, the more the secret grows in the space 392 00:23:12.265 --> 00:23:15.248 align:middle line:90% and takes room in the relationship. 393 00:23:16.181 --> 00:23:21.681 align:middle line:90% And secrets are a host of-- It's a huge topic in relationships. 394 00:23:21.681 --> 00:23:25.080 align:middle line:90% It's a huge topic in families. It's intergenerational. 395 00:23:25.461 --> 00:23:31.069 align:middle line:90% It's a whole legacy of what secrets do to people, all kinds of secrets. 396 00:23:31.780 --> 00:23:37.162 align:middle line:90% Secrets make people doubt their sense of reality on the other side. 397 00:23:37.523 --> 00:23:43.052 align:middle line:90% Secrets breed conflict, and secrets when they are revealed, 398 00:23:43.052 --> 00:23:47.758 align:middle line:90% who says who to what, when and how and for what. [CHUCKLES] 399 00:23:47.963 --> 00:23:50.900 align:middle line:90% So they have a life of their own and they are one 400 00:23:50.900 --> 00:23:55.611 align:middle line:90% of the most important ingredients of relationships and conflict 401 00:23:55.611 --> 00:23:56.883 align:middle line:90% in relationships. 402 00:23:57.311 --> 00:23:59.856 align:middle line:90% Yeah. Yeah. I mean, another thing that you said, though, i 403 00:23:59.856 --> 00:24:02.629 align:middle line:90% in this particular episode, you talk about how 404 00:24:03.395 --> 00:24:08.373 align:middle line:90% the ability to hold these contradictory feelings 405 00:24:08.373 --> 00:24:11.932 align:middle line:90% about a person is a sign of maturity. 406 00:24:12.505 --> 00:24:15.560 align:middle line:90% It's a sign of mature love, of healthy love, even. 407 00:24:16.037 --> 00:24:17.214 align:middle line:90% Can you say more about that? 408 00:24:17.378 --> 00:24:17.967 align:middle line:90% Yes. 409 00:24:19.072 --> 00:24:23.545 align:middle line:90% Because we do, we inhabit multiples and contradictions. 410 00:24:23.981 --> 00:24:28.287 align:middle line:90% We love somebody for something and we can't stand that same person 411 00:24:28.303 --> 00:24:29.619 align:middle line:90% for something very different 412 00:24:30.263 --> 00:24:36.672 align:middle line:90% because in a relationship, intimacy lives side by side with closeness and distance, 413 00:24:37.056 --> 00:24:41.078 align:middle line:90% with disgust and attraction, with excitement and boredom. 414 00:24:41.941 --> 00:24:46.882 align:middle line:90% And you live in these dualities with anger and connection, 415 00:24:47.218 --> 00:24:51.235 align:middle line:90% with rupture and repair, with aggression and softness. 416 00:24:51.235 --> 00:24:57.468 align:middle line:90% I mean, the layers of a relationship is our ability to fully experience 417 00:24:57.468 --> 00:25:02.190 align:middle line:90% those contradictions rather than to shut each time one out 418 00:25:02.338 --> 00:25:05.422 align:middle line:90% to kind of living with a cancel culture inside ourselves. 419 00:25:05.422 --> 00:25:07.196 align:middle line:90% If I have this, I can't have that. 420 00:25:07.408 --> 00:25:09.367 align:middle line:90% How can I feel this and that at the same time? 421 00:25:09.367 --> 00:25:13.367 align:middle line:90% Because that's what it is, "both and" rather than "either or." 422 00:25:14.005 --> 00:25:15.979 align:middle line:90% Yeah, that is to be human, right? [CHUCKLES] 423 00:25:16.548 --> 00:25:18.611 align:middle line:90% Is to have all these contradictory thoughts 424 00:25:18.611 --> 00:25:20.075 align:middle line:90% and feelings at the same time. 425 00:25:21.181 --> 00:25:25.449 align:middle line:90% Well, I would really kick myself if I had this chance to speak with you, 426 00:25:25.449 --> 00:25:28.428 align:middle line:90% Esther Perel, and not ask you for some advice personally. 427 00:25:28.428 --> 00:25:28.928 align:middle line:90% [PEREL CHUCKLES] 428 00:25:28.928 --> 00:25:31.311 align:middle line:90% So I want to tell you about something going on in my life. 429 00:25:31.311 --> 00:25:34.357 align:middle line:90% I've been feeling it the whole conversation. [CHUCKLES] 430 00:25:34.357 --> 00:25:36.211 align:middle line:90% I'm pregnant with my first child. 431 00:25:36.488 --> 00:25:38.370 align:middle line:90% So my husband and I are just a few… 432 00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:42.178 align:middle line:90% We're very close to becoming parents for the first time. 433 00:25:43.304 --> 00:25:45.507 align:middle line:90% As we've gotten closer and closer to the due date, 434 00:25:45.507 --> 00:25:49.640 align:middle line:90% we've heard so many stories, and I would say a lot of warnings, 435 00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:52.787 align:middle line:90% from totally well-meaning friends, couple friends of ours, 436 00:25:53.399 --> 00:25:58.160 align:middle line:90% about how having a baby means that the relationship is gonna be rocky 437 00:25:58.244 --> 00:26:01.454 align:middle line:90% for a little bit. It's a very challenging time for a couple. 438 00:26:02.055 --> 00:26:05.286 align:middle line:90% So I wanted to ask you, what advice do you have 439 00:26:05.286 --> 00:26:09.408 align:middle line:90% for me and my partner, for couples like us, 440 00:26:10.063 --> 00:26:13.272 align:middle line:90% right when they become parents for the first time? 441 00:26:13.488 --> 00:26:14.101 align:middle line:90% Yes. 442 00:26:14.346 --> 00:26:18.676 align:middle line:90% Having a child is a redistribution of resources, 443 00:26:18.957 --> 00:26:24.613 align:middle line:90% time, money, attention, touch, sensuality, you name it. 444 00:26:25.657 --> 00:26:28.721 align:middle line:90% And in the beginning, it is absolutely normal 445 00:26:28.721 --> 00:26:31.636 align:middle line:90% that all that attention will be drawn away 446 00:26:31.636 --> 00:26:34.883 align:middle line:90% and onto the child and shared, the pleasure will be shared. 447 00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:40.594 align:middle line:90% So it's true that there is a statement that individual happiness often increases 448 00:26:40.594 --> 00:26:42.520 align:middle line:90% and relational happiness plummets. 449 00:26:43.749 --> 00:26:45.750 align:middle line:90% And it demands a lot of attention. 450 00:26:45.946 --> 00:26:50.690 align:middle line:90% It demands real, careful, deliberate attention to not let the couple 451 00:26:50.690 --> 00:26:51.991 align:middle line:90% die on the vine. 452 00:26:52.675 --> 00:26:57.539 align:middle line:90% Especially given that today the survival of the family depends on the happiness 453 00:26:57.539 --> 00:26:58.183 align:middle line:90% of the couple. 454 00:26:58.754 --> 00:26:59.922 align:middle line:90% Yeah, yeah. 455 00:26:59.922 --> 00:27:03.325 align:middle line:90% So the couple that gives everything they have 456 00:27:03.325 --> 00:27:06.077 align:middle line:90% to their kids and leaves nothing for themselves 457 00:27:06.077 --> 00:27:08.444 align:middle line:90% puts the family at risk, not just the couple. 458 00:27:08.875 --> 00:27:11.431 align:middle line:90% That's something I tell lots of people 459 00:27:11.431 --> 00:27:14.085 align:middle line:90% because there is an unprecedented child centrality 460 00:27:14.085 --> 00:27:18.786 align:middle line:90% at this moment that really demands for the people to abdicate 461 00:27:18.786 --> 00:27:22.527 align:middle line:90% of themselves at a level that has reached an apex of folly. 462 00:27:23.223 --> 00:27:24.367 align:middle line:90% Now you know what I think. 463 00:27:24.444 --> 00:27:24.944 align:middle line:90% [BASU CHUCKLES] 464 00:27:25.187 --> 00:27:29.757 align:middle line:90% And so to do that, to have the couple maintain itself, 465 00:27:30.101 --> 00:27:33.911 align:middle line:90% the most important thing I can say is find a community. 466 00:27:34.351 --> 00:27:35.299 align:middle line:90% Find a community? 467 00:27:35.383 --> 00:27:38.340 align:middle line:90% Find a community. Don't go at it alone. 468 00:27:38.901 --> 00:27:42.970 align:middle line:90% This was one of the most depleting things that you see around you 469 00:27:42.970 --> 00:27:46.919 align:middle line:90% is that many people, when they have a child, they become isolated. 470 00:27:47.192 --> 00:27:47.828 align:middle line:90% Yes. 471 00:27:48.232 --> 00:27:52.280 align:middle line:90% When in fact this is the time when they need the most support, 472 00:27:52.280 --> 00:27:55.162 align:middle line:90% other adults, other conversations and all that. 473 00:27:55.162 --> 00:27:58.928 align:middle line:90% So find a community of a few other families, 474 00:27:59.045 --> 00:28:03.716 align:middle line:90% begin raising your kids together and share childcare 475 00:28:03.716 --> 00:28:06.334 align:middle line:90% and share different responsibilities. 476 00:28:06.334 --> 00:28:08.949 align:middle line:90% And if you can be in proximity geographically, 477 00:28:08.949 --> 00:28:13.288 align:middle line:90% share food stuff and weekend activities and all of that. 478 00:28:13.528 --> 00:28:17.351 align:middle line:90% I can't tell you how much of a difference it makes. 479 00:28:18.045 --> 00:28:22.027 align:middle line:90% Hmm. Oh, this is such different advice than what I've heard. 480 00:28:22.027 --> 00:28:25.974 align:middle line:90% I've heard so many people focus on very literally this idea 481 00:28:25.974 --> 00:28:28.591 align:middle line:90% of you're keeping your coupledom strong. 482 00:28:28.591 --> 00:28:31.857 align:middle line:90% So like, take date nights and things like that. 483 00:28:31.857 --> 00:28:35.876 align:middle line:90% I've heard a lot of that kind of advice, but I haven't heard people frame it 484 00:28:36.092 --> 00:28:41.386 align:middle line:90% as much around just greater community, the need to find a larger community. 485 00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:43.392 align:middle line:90% I can't emphasize it enough. 486 00:28:43.540 --> 00:28:47.134 align:middle line:90% It is an experience that you go through with others. 487 00:28:47.851 --> 00:28:52.185 align:middle line:90% And by doing and having the multiple, you get anchored, 488 00:28:52.629 --> 00:28:56.615 align:middle line:90% you get a reality check, you get support, 489 00:28:56.615 --> 00:29:01.321 align:middle line:90% you get people who are sharing some of these transitions together with you, 490 00:29:01.697 --> 00:29:03.550 align:middle line:90% and you get adult time, 491 00:29:04.254 --> 00:29:07.944 align:middle line:90% and you get a sense that other people care about your kids. 492 00:29:09.112 --> 00:29:11.757 align:middle line:90% That you're not the only ones who have to be there responsible 493 00:29:11.757 --> 00:29:13.742 align:middle line:90% and with your love and your attention. 494 00:29:14.078 --> 00:29:15.967 align:middle line:90% And that liberates you 495 00:29:16.495 --> 00:29:19.725 align:middle line:90% when you know that they have other people. I don't know what kind of extended family 496 00:29:19.725 --> 00:29:22.993 align:middle line:90% you have around you, but if you do, involve them, 497 00:29:22.993 --> 00:29:25.703 align:middle line:90% and if you don't, create a family of choice. 498 00:29:25.911 --> 00:29:30.273 align:middle line:90% Mm, mm. Oh, that's such great advice. Thank you so much. 499 00:29:30.461 --> 00:29:31.250 align:middle line:90% You're welcome. 500 00:29:31.466 --> 00:29:36.718 align:middle line:90% I wonder if as a couples therapist, you ever feel the pressure 501 00:29:36.718 --> 00:29:41.666 align:middle line:90% of speaking to people at what feels like a very high emotion, 502 00:29:41.878 --> 00:29:44.208 align:middle line:90% critical point in their relationship, 503 00:29:44.701 --> 00:29:47.524 align:middle line:90% and they might be feeling, and I don't know if you feel this as well, 504 00:29:47.524 --> 00:29:51.122 align:middle line:90% that you really hold their futures in your hands. 505 00:29:51.626 --> 00:29:56.370 align:middle line:90% How do you think about the responsibility that comes with your work? 506 00:29:58.295 --> 00:30:00.388 align:middle line:90% I think you have a lot of responsibility. 507 00:30:01.092 --> 00:30:03.621 align:middle line:90% It's a both end actually here too. 508 00:30:03.961 --> 00:30:06.518 align:middle line:90% On the one hand, people will do whatever they want to do. 509 00:30:07.330 --> 00:30:09.711 align:middle line:90% Whatever you say to them, they'll do what they want. 510 00:30:10.159 --> 00:30:14.249 align:middle line:90% On the other end, don't ever underestimate the power of what you say. 511 00:30:15.989 --> 00:30:18.938 align:middle line:90% Don't underestimate it and be aware 512 00:30:18.938 --> 00:30:23.856 align:middle line:90% of how sometimes people come in a real state of fragility. 513 00:30:25.161 --> 00:30:30.767 align:middle line:90% And a slight blow can make them go in this direction or in that direction. 514 00:30:32.510 --> 00:30:39.934 align:middle line:90% So it's very important to take a moment to listen, to listen, to listen. 515 00:30:40.435 --> 00:30:43.314 align:middle line:90% To listen for what's said and to listen for what is not said. 516 00:30:44.151 --> 00:30:47.439 align:middle line:90% I'll lead you and I'll lead you to take responsibility 517 00:30:47.439 --> 00:30:50.776 align:middle line:90% and I'll lead you to experience as much freedom as you can 518 00:30:50.776 --> 00:30:52.564 align:middle line:90% so that you can make a choice. 519 00:30:54.026 --> 00:30:58.723 align:middle line:90% But I have very, very clear that I don't live with the consequences 520 00:30:58.723 --> 00:30:59.616 align:middle line:90% of the decision. 521 00:31:00.493 --> 00:31:01.578 align:middle line:90% Only you will. 522 00:31:02.399 --> 00:31:03.692 align:middle line:90% Physically, you will. 523 00:31:03.692 --> 00:31:06.546 align:middle line:90% I can be next to you, but you're the one who will. 524 00:31:06.850 --> 00:31:10.114 align:middle line:90% And for that, you sometimes sit with people for years 525 00:31:10.354 --> 00:31:12.867 align:middle line:90% until they make certain decisions. 526 00:31:13.760 --> 00:31:18.911 align:middle line:90% But what I can is offer you a witness, 527 00:31:19.351 --> 00:31:24.348 align:middle line:90% a caring, deliberate, attuned witness. 528 00:31:24.434 --> 00:31:24.934 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES IN] 529 00:31:25.568 --> 00:31:27.541 align:middle line:90% Thank you so much for this entire conversation. 530 00:31:27.541 --> 00:31:29.939 align:middle line:90% It was really a pleasure to speak with you. 531 00:31:30.167 --> 00:31:31.865 align:middle line:90% Same for me. Thank you so much. 532 00:31:35.808 --> 00:31:40.935 align:middle line:90% You can listen to "Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel" on Apple Podcasts. 533 00:31:41.111 --> 00:31:43.257 align:middle line:90% You can find a link to it on our show notes page. 534 00:31:43.869 --> 00:31:47.332 align:middle line:90% And if you're enjoying this show, "Apple News in Conversation," 535 00:31:47.332 --> 00:31:48.537 align:middle line:90% please take a moment 536 00:31:48.537 --> 00:31:52.359 align:middle line:90% to follow us on Apple Podcasts and leave us a rating and review. 537 00:31:52.592 --> 00:31:53.116 align:middle line:90% Thanks. 538 00:31:55.924 --> 00:31:56.424 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT]