WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.636 --> 00:00:01.136 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES IN] 2 00:00:04.091 --> 00:00:06.938 align:middle line:90% This is "In Conversation" from "Apple News." 3 00:00:07.119 --> 00:00:08.376 align:middle line:90% I'm Shumita Basu. 4 00:00:08.777 --> 00:00:12.356 align:middle line:90% Today, how the evangelical church became so political, 5 00:00:12.356 --> 00:00:14.083 align:middle line:90% according to a pastor's son. 6 00:00:17.736 --> 00:00:18.236 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 7 00:00:19.571 --> 00:00:20.071 align:middle line:90% [PENSIVE MUSIC] 8 00:00:21.587 --> 00:00:25.697 align:middle line:90% Tim Alberta was raised in the church, and I mean that literally. 9 00:00:26.197 --> 00:00:29.623 align:middle line:90% His father was an evangelical minister for nearly three decades 10 00:00:29.623 --> 00:00:32.150 align:middle line:90% at Cornerstone Church outside of Detroit. 11 00:00:32.896 --> 00:00:34.668 align:middle line:90% His mother led the women's ministry. 12 00:00:35.509 --> 00:00:38.997 align:middle line:90% As a kid, Tim played games in the church's back rooms, 13 00:00:38.997 --> 00:00:41.107 align:middle line:90% did his homework in the office wing, 14 00:00:41.547 --> 00:00:45.555 align:middle line:90% brought high school dates to Bible study, and even worked as a church janitor 15 00:00:45.555 --> 00:00:46.678 align:middle line:90% while in college. 16 00:00:47.690 --> 00:00:51.895 align:middle line:90% When Tim's father died in 2019, Tim returned to the church 17 00:00:51.895 --> 00:00:55.584 align:middle line:90% that he'd always called home to remember his dad and to mourn. 18 00:00:56.909 --> 00:01:02.660 align:middle line:90% I had people at the visitation, the day before the funeral, confronting me. 19 00:01:02.737 --> 00:01:07.411 align:middle line:90% In some cases, really confronting me in a hostile way, 20 00:01:07.795 --> 00:01:11.489 align:middle line:90% questioning my faith, questioning if I was on the right team, 21 00:01:11.489 --> 00:01:12.856 align:middle line:90% on the right side of things. 22 00:01:13.112 --> 00:01:16.390 align:middle line:90% You know, while my dad was in a box about 100 feet away. 23 00:01:17.076 --> 00:01:20.881 align:middle line:90% Tim is a journalist and at the time he had come out with a book 24 00:01:20.881 --> 00:01:22.481 align:middle line:90% that was getting a lot of attention. 25 00:01:23.013 --> 00:01:26.456 align:middle line:90% It was about the impact of Donald Trump on the Republican Party. 26 00:01:27.149 --> 00:01:30.775 align:middle line:90% That's where this criticism from the church community was coming from. 27 00:01:31.632 --> 00:01:34.729 align:middle line:90% Tim was really unsettled by the comments he was getting 28 00:01:34.897 --> 00:01:36.276 align:middle line:90% and it made him pretty angry. 29 00:01:36.675 --> 00:01:39.135 align:middle line:90% The next day, in fact, at his funeral, 30 00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:42.299 align:middle line:90% I sort of let it rip a little bit in my eulogy. 31 00:01:42.299 --> 00:01:44.239 align:middle line:90% I brought up these confrontations from the day before 32 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:47.062 align:middle line:90% and said, like, "What are we doing here?" You know, like, "Is this right?" 33 00:01:47.062 --> 00:01:51.429 align:middle line:90% "Is this who we are as believers?" And then it got even worse. 34 00:01:51.817 --> 00:01:55.288 align:middle line:90% After he delivered that eulogy, he got a written note 35 00:01:55.288 --> 00:01:58.061 align:middle line:90% from a longtime member of his father's congregation. 36 00:01:58.453 --> 00:02:01.840 align:middle line:90% That basically said I was a part of the deep state 37 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:06.095 align:middle line:90% and that I was undermining God's ordained leader of this nation, 38 00:02:06.095 --> 00:02:08.405 align:middle line:90% Donald Trump, and that I should be ashamed of myself. 39 00:02:08.405 --> 00:02:13.359 align:middle line:90% And it was just… long story short, really a clarifying moment. 40 00:02:14.464 --> 00:02:18.564 align:middle line:90% This experience at his father's funeral tipped the scales for Tim 41 00:02:18.564 --> 00:02:20.567 align:middle line:90% to report out a book, out now, 42 00:02:20.831 --> 00:02:23.717 align:middle line:90% called, "The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: 43 00:02:24.077 --> 00:02:27.183 align:middle line:90% American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism." 44 00:02:27.975 --> 00:02:31.913 align:middle line:90% The book lays out the state of the American evangelical church today, 45 00:02:32.494 --> 00:02:37.497 align:middle line:90% how intertwined the church has become with politics, and the forces pushing it 46 00:02:37.497 --> 00:02:41.899 align:middle line:90% to embrace what were once considered the political and cultural fringes. 47 00:02:42.915 --> 00:02:47.187 align:middle line:90% I sat down with Tim several weeks ago, before I started my maternity leave. 48 00:02:47.841 --> 00:02:48.341 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 49 00:02:48.885 --> 00:02:53.601 align:middle line:90% There's a two-word phrase that you will hear when you hang around 50 00:02:53.601 --> 00:02:58.063 align:middle line:90% evangelicals long enough, particularly political evangelicals, 51 00:02:58.063 --> 00:03:01.541 align:middle line:90% and that two-word phrase is, "under siege." 52 00:03:02.109 --> 00:03:02.677 align:middle line:90% Hmm. 53 00:03:02.894 --> 00:03:06.780 align:middle line:90% A belief that the barbarians are at the gates, 54 00:03:07.020 --> 00:03:09.244 align:middle line:90% a belief that the culture, 55 00:03:09.476 --> 00:03:12.730 align:middle line:90% the hostile, godless, wicked, secular culture 56 00:03:12.730 --> 00:03:16.039 align:middle line:90% and the hostile, wicked, secular government is coming 57 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:16.815 align:middle line:90% for Christians, 58 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:21.653 align:middle line:90% that we are being persecuted and that that persecution will intensify. 59 00:03:22.386 --> 00:03:27.472 align:middle line:90% Once you get to that place in believing that this thing that is so sacred, 60 00:03:27.713 --> 00:03:30.568 align:middle line:90% and I don't mean your faith necessarily, I mean your faith 61 00:03:30.648 --> 00:03:33.688 align:middle line:90% in the context of your national identity. 62 00:03:34.108 --> 00:03:36.622 align:middle line:90% You are not just a Christian, you're an American Christian. 63 00:03:36.622 --> 00:03:40.063 align:middle line:90% You are sort of almost in covenant with God in a special way 64 00:03:40.063 --> 00:03:41.777 align:middle line:90% because he has so blessed this country. 65 00:03:41.905 --> 00:03:44.246 align:middle line:90% That is the mindset of a lot of these folks. 66 00:03:44.546 --> 00:03:45.723 align:middle line:90% And once you're there… 67 00:03:46.307 --> 00:03:50.339 align:middle line:90% well, then you can pretty quickly get to a place where you're willing 68 00:03:50.339 --> 00:03:54.291 align:middle line:90% to compromise some of your core values, your core beliefs, 69 00:03:54.616 --> 00:04:00.584 align:middle line:90% in the interest of keeping those enemies at bay, warding off those threats, 70 00:04:00.584 --> 00:04:04.201 align:middle line:90% and allowing the ends to justify the means. 71 00:04:04.474 --> 00:04:09.040 align:middle line:90% You have this huge scramble of people winding up in these churches 72 00:04:09.040 --> 00:04:13.439 align:middle line:90% that are now preaching this sort of blood and soil, Christian nationalism. 73 00:04:13.719 --> 00:04:18.693 align:middle line:90% And you have pastors like Greg Locke in Tennessee, who a few years ago, 74 00:04:18.693 --> 00:04:21.604 align:middle line:90% nobody knew who he was, and now he's got millions and millions 75 00:04:21.604 --> 00:04:25.646 align:middle line:90% of followers and enormous influence in the evangelical world. 76 00:04:26.054 --> 00:04:30.193 align:middle line:90% Those sorts of figures would have been considered fringe 10 years ago, 77 00:04:30.193 --> 00:04:33.838 align:middle line:90% and now, in some sense, they're actually quite mainstream. 78 00:04:33.950 --> 00:04:34.450 align:middle line:90% Hmm. 79 00:04:34.450 --> 00:04:38.899 align:middle line:90% And so, it's difficult, I think, for unbelievers, 80 00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:42.833 align:middle line:90% for people outside of the church, to take any of that seriously, 81 00:04:42.969 --> 00:04:46.639 align:middle line:90% to say, "Well, hold on a second here, you're telling me that white Christians 82 00:04:47.015 --> 00:04:48.245 align:middle line:90% think they're persecuted?" 83 00:04:48.726 --> 00:04:53.130 align:middle line:90% "You're telling me that people who have sort of controlled the commanding heights 84 00:04:53.130 --> 00:04:55.721 align:middle line:90% of society since this country was founded, 85 00:04:55.993 --> 00:04:58.554 align:middle line:90% that they feel like they're being marginalized 86 00:04:58.554 --> 00:05:03.538 align:middle line:90% and almost martyred, and that is what justifies their 87 00:05:03.538 --> 00:05:06.379 align:middle line:90% affiliation with Donald Trump and some of their political behaviors?" 88 00:05:06.379 --> 00:05:07.791 align:middle line:90% And the answer is yes. 89 00:05:08.099 --> 00:05:13.420 align:middle line:90% And understanding that fully, really, really appreciating what goes into that, 90 00:05:13.664 --> 00:05:17.645 align:middle line:90% I think, is a big first step toward addressing the issue here. 91 00:05:17.786 --> 00:05:18.286 align:middle line:90% [INTRIGUING MUSIC] 92 00:05:18.581 --> 00:05:23.390 align:middle line:90% Tim says this mixing of religion and politics was exacerbated 93 00:05:23.390 --> 00:05:26.323 align:middle line:90% by the election of Donald Trump in 2020. 94 00:05:26.543 --> 00:05:29.407 align:middle line:90% You can hear it in the way many evangelical voters talk 95 00:05:29.407 --> 00:05:30.756 align:middle line:90% about the former president. 96 00:05:31.615 --> 00:05:32.115 align:middle line:90% [START TWITTER ARCHIVAL CLIP] 97 00:05:32.115 --> 00:05:34.616 align:middle line:90% So what is it about Trump that you love so much? 98 00:05:34.616 --> 00:05:36.157 align:middle line:90% Well, I like Trump as a person. 99 00:05:36.157 --> 00:05:37.141 align:middle line:90% He's a godly man. 100 00:05:37.141 --> 00:05:38.918 align:middle line:90% President Trump works for God. 101 00:05:38.918 --> 00:05:40.898 align:middle line:90% His Christian values that he stands for. 102 00:05:40.898 --> 00:05:42.879 align:middle line:90% He's working for God, for darn sure. 103 00:05:42.879 --> 00:05:44.456 align:middle line:90% And God is all about America. 104 00:05:44.456 --> 00:05:45.636 align:middle line:90% Gotta support the king. 105 00:05:45.636 --> 00:05:48.257 align:middle line:90% He's using President Trump as one of his tools. 106 00:05:48.257 --> 00:05:50.178 align:middle line:90% King Jesus first and then King Trump. 107 00:05:50.178 --> 00:05:50.678 align:middle line:90% [END TWITTER ARCHIVAL CLIP] 108 00:05:51.785 --> 00:05:55.661 align:middle line:90% Trump has said he identifies as a non-denominational Christian. 109 00:05:55.973 --> 00:05:58.828 align:middle line:90% He's also said that no president has ever fought 110 00:05:58.828 --> 00:06:01.273 align:middle line:90% for Christians as hard as he has. 111 00:06:01.862 --> 00:06:04.624 align:middle line:90% And you'll often see church leaders at events for Trump, 112 00:06:04.952 --> 00:06:08.300 align:middle line:90% like this pastor who spoke at a rally in Iowa last month. 113 00:06:09.435 --> 00:06:09.935 align:middle line:90% [START TWITTER ARCHIVAL CLIP] 114 00:06:09.935 --> 00:06:13.616 align:middle line:90% This election is part of a spiritual battle. 115 00:06:13.952 --> 00:06:16.393 align:middle line:90% are demonic forces at play. 116 00:06:17.017 --> 00:06:20.378 align:middle line:90% And when Donald Trump becomes the 47th president 117 00:06:20.378 --> 00:06:23.852 align:middle line:90% of the United States, there will be retribution 118 00:06:23.852 --> 00:06:27.664 align:middle line:90% against all those who have promoted evil in this country. 119 00:06:27.664 --> 00:06:28.164 align:middle line:90% [CROWD CHEERING] 120 00:06:28.164 --> 00:06:28.664 align:middle line:90% [END TWITTER ARCHIVAL CLIP] 121 00:06:29.257 --> 00:06:32.742 align:middle line:90% From Tim's perspective, so much of Trump's behavior 122 00:06:32.742 --> 00:06:35.190 align:middle line:90% defies Christian texts and teachings. 123 00:06:35.594 --> 00:06:39.907 align:middle line:90% Everything from misquoting the Bible, to bragging about assaulting women, 124 00:06:40.359 --> 00:06:42.856 align:middle line:90% to mocking a reporter who has a disability. 125 00:06:43.744 --> 00:06:46.032 align:middle line:90% In reporting his book, something that Tim wanted to 126 00:06:46.032 --> 00:06:49.376 align:middle line:90% understand better was how millions of evangelicals 127 00:06:49.376 --> 00:06:52.198 align:middle line:90% continue to support Trump despite his conduct. 128 00:06:52.686 --> 00:06:56.438 align:middle line:90% And he found the reasons for supporting Trump fell along the spectrum. 129 00:06:57.007 --> 00:06:59.279 align:middle line:90% On one end of that spectrum, you have… 130 00:06:59.539 --> 00:07:04.187 align:middle line:90% …self-identified evangelical Christians who are just nakedly hypocritical. 131 00:07:04.435 --> 00:07:07.850 align:middle line:90% They almost own the charge, embrace the charge of being hypocrites. 132 00:07:07.850 --> 00:07:10.768 align:middle line:90% They're jumping at the chance to go slumming with Donald Trump, 133 00:07:10.904 --> 00:07:13.776 align:middle line:90% who behaves in ways that are completely antithetical 134 00:07:13.776 --> 00:07:16.629 align:middle line:90% to the lifestyle that they themselves claim. 135 00:07:17.537 --> 00:07:20.116 align:middle line:90% At the other end of the spectrum are evangelicals 136 00:07:20.116 --> 00:07:21.721 align:middle line:90% who feel much more conflicted, 137 00:07:22.114 --> 00:07:24.603 align:middle line:90% but because of certain issues like abortion, 138 00:07:24.747 --> 00:07:27.787 align:middle line:90% they couldn't bring themselves to vote for the Democratic nominee. 139 00:07:28.644 --> 00:07:30.408 align:middle line:90% These were evangelicals who… 140 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:32.756 align:middle line:90% …voted for Donald Trump in 2016 141 00:07:32.968 --> 00:07:35.423 align:middle line:90% and prayed for forgiveness immediately thereafter 142 00:07:35.423 --> 00:07:38.760 align:middle line:90% and felt completely nauseous in the voting booth 143 00:07:38.760 --> 00:07:40.760 align:middle line:90% while they punched the ticket for him. 144 00:07:42.075 --> 00:07:45.525 align:middle line:90% Tim told me about a moment when he was talking to Ralph Reed, 145 00:07:45.605 --> 00:07:48.606 align:middle line:90% a very prominent, long time Christian organizer. 146 00:07:49.229 --> 00:07:49.729 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 147 00:07:49.910 --> 00:07:54.748 align:middle line:90% He was talking about Trump's sort of reprehensible conduct and rhetoric, 148 00:07:54.748 --> 00:07:58.185 align:middle line:90% he said, "Yeah, but in politics, that's just kind of the way it goes." 149 00:07:58.646 --> 00:08:01.747 align:middle line:90% And I sort of stopped to unpack that in the book. 150 00:08:01.747 --> 00:08:04.548 align:middle line:90% And I said, for a lot of Christians, 151 00:08:05.004 --> 00:08:10.885 align:middle line:90% they've come to view politics the way that a suburban dad 152 00:08:10.885 --> 00:08:13.312 align:middle line:90% comes to view a weekend in Las Vegas. 153 00:08:13.473 --> 00:08:17.673 align:middle line:90% Like it's this self-contained escape from their life where they can go 154 00:08:17.977 --> 00:08:21.677 align:middle line:90% and behave in ways that they would never behave anywhere else, 155 00:08:21.901 --> 00:08:24.217 align:middle line:90% and that when it's done, it's done, and then they can go back 156 00:08:24.217 --> 00:08:26.610 align:middle line:90% to being a Christian in their everyday life. 157 00:08:26.946 --> 00:08:31.581 align:middle line:90% But the problem, of course, is that what happens in Vegas doesn't stay in Vegas. 158 00:08:31.581 --> 00:08:33.904 align:middle line:90% And in this case, for the Christians 159 00:08:33.904 --> 00:08:40.655 align:middle line:90% who decide that politics is this sort of special carve-out in their lives 160 00:08:40.655 --> 00:08:43.491 align:middle line:90% where all of the teachings from the Sermon on the Mount 161 00:08:43.603 --> 00:08:46.136 align:middle line:90% and all of the Christian ethics and virtues 162 00:08:46.284 --> 00:08:50.080 align:middle line:90% that they hold dear in every other facet of their life, 163 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:53.289 align:middle line:90% that they're suddenly dispensable when it comes to electoral politics. 164 00:08:53.594 --> 00:08:55.131 align:middle line:90% And when they behave that way, 165 00:08:55.747 --> 00:09:00.711 align:middle line:90% it so badly diminishes the credibility of the gospel of Jesus. 166 00:09:00.711 --> 00:09:05.435 align:middle line:90% And it opens these schisms, and that's what really the book is about, 167 00:09:05.435 --> 00:09:10.099 align:middle line:90% is exploring this great schism between so many people who are, 168 00:09:10.099 --> 00:09:14.843 align:middle line:90% in one sense, very much the same, but when it comes to this question 169 00:09:14.843 --> 00:09:16.983 align:middle line:90% of politics and political engagement, 170 00:09:16.983 --> 00:09:20.087 align:middle line:90% have just gone in entirely different directions. 171 00:09:20.403 --> 00:09:20.963 align:middle line:90% Mmm. 172 00:09:21.534 --> 00:09:24.491 align:middle line:90% Well, I think one pairing that we can look at 173 00:09:24.491 --> 00:09:27.280 align:middle line:90% that really exemplifies that is Donald Trump 174 00:09:27.280 --> 00:09:29.924 align:middle line:90% and former Vice President Mike Pence, right? 175 00:09:29.924 --> 00:09:33.952 align:middle line:90% And just their relationships to the evangelical community today. 176 00:09:34.252 --> 00:09:36.751 align:middle line:90% I mean, Mike Pence came in as V.P. 177 00:09:36.751 --> 00:09:39.462 align:middle line:90% He is evangelical. He is a born-again Christian. 178 00:09:40.075 --> 00:09:43.726 align:middle line:90% He had a very strong relationship with evangelical voters from the start. 179 00:09:44.098 --> 00:09:47.740 align:middle line:90% And I think today you could say he has pretty much the inverse relationship 180 00:09:47.740 --> 00:09:50.234 align:middle line:90% as compared to Donald Trump with this group of voters. 181 00:09:50.683 --> 00:09:53.144 align:middle line:90% What does that flip tell you 182 00:09:53.144 --> 00:09:57.315 align:middle line:90% about how the evangelical community has changed 183 00:09:57.315 --> 00:10:00.350 align:middle line:90% over the past, you know, six, eight years? 184 00:10:00.754 --> 00:10:06.163 align:middle line:90% I'm so glad you asked that because there's probably no better relationship 185 00:10:06.163 --> 00:10:08.243 align:middle line:90% that can be used to understand 186 00:10:08.243 --> 00:10:10.361 align:middle line:90% these broader dynamics that I'm describing. 187 00:10:10.637 --> 00:10:13.089 align:middle line:90% So I'll give you two examples. 188 00:10:13.326 --> 00:10:16.668 align:middle line:90% First, when I was with Ralph Reed in that story 189 00:10:16.668 --> 00:10:18.003 align:middle line:90% I was just describing a minute ago, 190 00:10:18.487 --> 00:10:20.463 align:middle line:90% Donald Trump had been speaking at this Faith 191 00:10:20.463 --> 00:10:22.182 align:middle line:90% and Freedom Coalition gathering. 192 00:10:22.182 --> 00:10:24.304 align:middle line:90% This was in the summer of 2022, 193 00:10:24.670 --> 00:10:29.765 align:middle line:90% and it was really the first time that Trump had ever publicly gone after 194 00:10:29.765 --> 00:10:33.432 align:middle line:90% Mike Pence for his actions on January 6th. 195 00:10:33.732 --> 00:10:36.563 align:middle line:90% And so this is about 18 months after they'd left office 196 00:10:36.771 --> 00:10:38.325 align:middle line:90% and the violence at the Capitol. 197 00:10:38.522 --> 00:10:41.776 align:middle line:90% And Donald Trump comes to Ralph Reed's conference 198 00:10:41.776 --> 00:10:45.579 align:middle line:90% full of, you know, thousands of evangelical political activists. 199 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:49.992 align:middle line:90% These are people who had been Mike Pence's sort of comrades in arms 200 00:10:49.992 --> 00:10:50.721 align:middle line:90% for decades. 201 00:10:50.721 --> 00:10:54.378 align:middle line:90% I mean, he was really like the torch carrier for that movement. 202 00:10:54.718 --> 00:10:57.059 align:middle line:90% And Trump gets up in front of these folks 203 00:10:57.483 --> 00:11:02.100 align:middle line:90% and he starts ripping Mike Pence and basically calling him a coward, 204 00:11:02.212 --> 00:11:06.986 align:middle line:90% calling him weak, mocking him, really a pretty cruel demonstration. 205 00:11:07.123 --> 00:11:07.623 align:middle line:90% [START C-SPAN ARCHIVAL CLIP] 206 00:11:07.623 --> 00:11:10.080 align:middle line:90% Mike was afraid of whatever he was afraid of. 207 00:11:10.347 --> 00:11:17.593 align:middle line:90% But as you heard a year and a half ago, Mike Pence had absolutely no choice 208 00:11:18.185 --> 00:11:20.535 align:middle line:90% but to be a human conveyor belt. 209 00:11:21.031 --> 00:11:23.740 align:middle line:90% He was a human conveyor belt, even if the votes were fraudulent. 210 00:11:23.740 --> 00:11:26.333 align:middle line:90% They said he had to send the votes, couldn't do anything. 211 00:11:26.413 --> 00:11:26.913 align:middle line:90% [END C-SPAN ARCHIVAL CLIP] 212 00:11:26.913 --> 00:11:30.338 align:middle line:90% And the crowd went wild. They loved it. 213 00:11:30.338 --> 00:11:35.332 align:middle line:90% I mean, they were eating it up. And it was so jarring to see that. 214 00:11:35.724 --> 00:11:38.373 align:middle line:90% And I think the other example I would give, 215 00:11:38.373 --> 00:11:41.378 align:middle line:90% which was not long after that, Mike Pence was getting ready 216 00:11:41.378 --> 00:11:43.339 align:middle line:90% to launch his presidential campaign. 217 00:11:43.887 --> 00:11:48.217 align:middle line:90% And he came out to Michigan and spoke at Hillsdale College, 218 00:11:48.473 --> 00:11:53.267 align:middle line:90% which is a largely conservative Christian school in Michigan, 219 00:11:53.471 --> 00:11:55.412 align:middle line:90% and I went there to see him speak. 220 00:11:55.860 --> 00:11:59.643 align:middle line:90% And Pence was kind of laying the rhetorical groundwork for his campaign 221 00:12:00.104 --> 00:12:02.440 align:middle line:90% and then he joked at one point and said, you know, 222 00:12:02.440 --> 00:12:06.854 align:middle line:90% "I had a career in talk radio. They called me Rush Limbaugh on decaf." 223 00:12:07.224 --> 00:12:07.724 align:middle line:90% [BASU CHUCKLES] 224 00:12:07.724 --> 00:12:10.578 align:middle line:90% And I was talking with voters after that speech, 225 00:12:10.613 --> 00:12:14.333 align:middle line:90% and one of them said to me, he said, you know, "The problem with Pence 226 00:12:14.558 --> 00:12:16.979 align:middle line:90% is we don't need decaf." 227 00:12:17.215 --> 00:12:21.739 align:middle line:90% "We need the real thing. Trump showed us that we need the real thing." 228 00:12:22.688 --> 00:12:27.537 align:middle line:90% And there's something almost Shakespearean to this reality 229 00:12:27.537 --> 00:12:32.062 align:middle line:90% that one of Trump's enduring legacies will have been 230 00:12:32.278 --> 00:12:38.476 align:middle line:90% that he conditioned evangelical Christians to demand something 231 00:12:38.652 --> 00:12:42.413 align:middle line:90% decidedly un-Christ-like from their political leaders. 232 00:12:42.677 --> 00:12:46.270 align:middle line:90% In other words, here is Mike Pence who believes all of what they believe. 233 00:12:46.466 --> 00:12:48.402 align:middle line:90% He sits in the pews with them. 234 00:12:48.742 --> 00:12:50.807 align:middle line:90% He teaches their Sunday school classes. 235 00:12:51.003 --> 00:12:54.868 align:middle line:90% He is a serious, devout believer, 236 00:12:55.192 --> 00:13:00.065 align:middle line:90% and yet he can no longer pass muster because he's not willing 237 00:13:00.225 --> 00:13:03.970 align:middle line:90% to be sort of antagonistic and provocative 238 00:13:04.206 --> 00:13:09.947 align:middle line:90% and angry and loathsome in the way that Trump is. 239 00:13:09.947 --> 00:13:11.968 align:middle line:90% And in some sense, 240 00:13:12.692 --> 00:13:15.929 align:middle line:90% I know that, personally, I know just from my own reporting, 241 00:13:15.929 --> 00:13:18.815 align:middle line:90% that Trump takes great satisfaction in that. 242 00:13:18.987 --> 00:13:24.584 align:middle line:90% Trump believes that he has effectively transformed 243 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:27.706 align:middle line:90% the evangelical base of the Republican Party 244 00:13:28.022 --> 00:13:32.836 align:middle line:90% and made it into almost his own image, which is, I think, 245 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:36.139 align:middle line:90% not an overstatement in many ways 246 00:13:36.139 --> 00:13:40.704 align:middle line:90% and understanding just that core reality of the attitudinal 247 00:13:40.704 --> 00:13:45.740 align:middle line:90% and behavioral makeover of this voting block is pretty essential 248 00:13:45.740 --> 00:13:50.653 align:middle line:90% to trying to figure out where we go from here as a country. 249 00:13:50.798 --> 00:13:52.134 align:middle line:90% Hmm, hmm. 250 00:13:52.933 --> 00:13:55.636 align:middle line:90% Well, one thing I really appreciate about this book 251 00:13:55.636 --> 00:14:01.099 align:middle line:90% and the way you approached it is that you clearly spent so much time traveling 252 00:14:01.099 --> 00:14:05.923 align:middle line:90% to different places and sitting in church and talking to people over long periods 253 00:14:05.923 --> 00:14:10.246 align:middle line:90% of time, talking to people and talking to congregants, talking to pastors. 254 00:14:10.867 --> 00:14:18.010 align:middle line:90% And what seems to emerge in your reporting on this is people being drawn 255 00:14:18.134 --> 00:14:20.618 align:middle line:90% to the caffeinated message. 256 00:14:21.188 --> 00:14:25.502 align:middle line:90% Can you talk a little bit more about what you were hearing from people 257 00:14:25.502 --> 00:14:28.835 align:middle line:90% who switched churches in the past few years, 258 00:14:29.075 --> 00:14:33.344 align:middle line:90% went out in search of a pastor who was more politicized, 259 00:14:33.344 --> 00:14:35.659 align:middle line:90% more politically charged in their messaging? 260 00:14:36.309 --> 00:14:40.615 align:middle line:90% I think specifically when historians look back at this period 261 00:14:40.615 --> 00:14:44.678 align:middle line:90% to try and understand this great sorting, this great realignment happening 262 00:14:44.678 --> 00:14:49.307 align:middle line:90% within American Christianity, I think they're probably going to zero in 263 00:14:49.579 --> 00:14:50.890 align:middle line:90% on COVID-19. 264 00:14:51.331 --> 00:14:56.848 align:middle line:90% And the reason I say that is because for, again, tens of millions 265 00:14:56.848 --> 00:15:01.185 align:middle line:90% of evangelical Christians who had spent decades 266 00:15:01.185 --> 00:15:05.623 align:middle line:90% marinating in this sort of, almost end times prophecy, 267 00:15:05.623 --> 00:15:10.908 align:middle line:90% this apocalyptic rhetoric around the government is coming for Christians. 268 00:15:11.640 --> 00:15:15.833 align:middle line:90% If you had spent decades marinating in that message, 269 00:15:16.738 --> 00:15:21.911 align:middle line:90% the arrival of COVID-19, and more specifically, the orders 270 00:15:21.911 --> 00:15:25.619 align:middle line:90% from a lot of blue state governors to close down houses of worship, 271 00:15:25.859 --> 00:15:28.312 align:middle line:90% even if it was just for some very short period of time, 272 00:15:28.312 --> 00:15:29.575 align:middle line:90% two, three, four weeks. 273 00:15:30.191 --> 00:15:33.706 align:middle line:90% That was almost like a prophecy being fulfilled. 274 00:15:34.002 --> 00:15:39.752 align:middle line:90% It was a sense of, okay, we've been warned about this day. 275 00:15:39.908 --> 00:15:41.510 align:middle line:90% We knew this day was coming. 276 00:15:41.510 --> 00:15:42.491 align:middle line:90% The threat has arrived. 277 00:15:42.491 --> 00:15:44.349 align:middle line:90% The threat has arrived. That's exactly right. 278 00:15:44.349 --> 00:15:46.871 align:middle line:90% It's here. And now what do we do about it? 279 00:15:46.871 --> 00:15:47.371 align:middle line:90% Right? 280 00:15:47.408 --> 00:15:53.861 align:middle line:90% And so you had a really incredible schism, 281 00:15:54.134 --> 00:15:58.849 align:middle line:90% in real time, sort of emerging between, again, a lot of people 282 00:15:58.849 --> 00:16:01.280 align:middle line:90% in the same congregations who had worshipped together, 283 00:16:01.412 --> 00:16:05.343 align:middle line:90% and loved one another, and been neighbors, and friends for decades, 284 00:16:05.483 --> 00:16:09.746 align:middle line:90% who were suddenly at odds, almost overnight, over this question of, 285 00:16:10.254 --> 00:16:15.192 align:middle line:90% "Am I being faithful to God by agreeing not to go to church 286 00:16:15.192 --> 00:16:18.534 align:middle line:90% for a couple of weeks, by allowing my pastor 287 00:16:18.702 --> 00:16:22.025 align:middle line:90% to shut the doors of our church for some period of time 288 00:16:22.025 --> 00:16:24.129 align:middle line:90% and comply with the government's orders?" 289 00:16:24.526 --> 00:16:29.916 align:middle line:90% The reason I hone in so much on COVID-19 and that specific division 290 00:16:29.916 --> 00:16:34.587 align:middle line:90% is because it's hard to understand otherwise 291 00:16:35.108 --> 00:16:41.205 align:middle line:90% how so many folks could pack up almost overnight 292 00:16:41.205 --> 00:16:44.304 align:middle line:90% and walk away from congregations that they'd been a part of 293 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:47.267 align:middle line:90% for, in many cases, I mean, without exaggeration, 294 00:16:47.267 --> 00:16:50.416 align:middle line:90% I met people who'd been in congregations for 40 years. 295 00:16:50.753 --> 00:16:56.230 align:middle line:90% And they got up and walked away because their pastor decided to comply 296 00:16:56.230 --> 00:16:59.867 align:middle line:90% with the government, decided to close down the church for a few Sundays, 297 00:17:00.083 --> 00:17:04.283 align:middle line:90% and they felt that that was a betrayal, like a betrayal of scripture, 298 00:17:04.283 --> 00:17:09.512 align:middle line:90% a betrayal of their duty as Christians, and almost like a white flag 299 00:17:09.512 --> 00:17:13.542 align:middle line:90% of surrender to the secular left that was coming for them. 300 00:17:13.869 --> 00:17:15.659 align:middle line:90% And where did those people go? 301 00:17:15.999 --> 00:17:23.844 align:middle line:90% They went to churches that were almost, like, belligerent, militant, 302 00:17:24.092 --> 00:17:25.970 align:middle line:90% in saying, no, we're going to stay open, 303 00:17:26.030 --> 00:17:30.660 align:middle line:90% we're going to defy the government, and we're going to do so not simply 304 00:17:30.660 --> 00:17:33.896 align:middle line:90% because we believe that we have a responsibility as Christians 305 00:17:33.896 --> 00:17:35.286 align:middle line:90% to meet on Sunday morning, 306 00:17:35.862 --> 00:17:40.385 align:middle line:90% but because we believe that this is the proxy war 307 00:17:40.385 --> 00:17:45.436 align:middle line:90% for sort of good versus evil, that those satanic, secular leftists 308 00:17:45.436 --> 00:17:49.668 align:middle line:90% are coming for us, and if we let them have our churches, then it's game over. 309 00:17:50.016 --> 00:17:53.523 align:middle line:90% So we're defending our churches because we're defending our way of life, 310 00:17:53.523 --> 00:17:55.167 align:middle line:90% and we're defending America, 311 00:17:55.167 --> 00:17:56.985 align:middle line:90% and we're defending everything we believe in. 312 00:17:57.478 --> 00:18:03.188 align:middle line:90% And again, they struggle at a certain point to draw a distinction 313 00:18:03.188 --> 00:18:08.355 align:middle line:90% between, okay, what is my theology, and what is my sort of 314 00:18:08.587 --> 00:18:13.843 align:middle line:90% cultural, political worldview, and am I compartmentalizing the two? 315 00:18:14.061 --> 00:18:14.561 align:middle line:90% Mmm. 316 00:18:15.488 --> 00:18:17.523 align:middle line:90% Another example of this that you give in the book 317 00:18:17.523 --> 00:18:21.753 align:middle line:90% is actually what you observed happen in your own hometown in Michigan. 318 00:18:22.117 --> 00:18:25.448 align:middle line:90% There was the church that you grew up in, that your father was a pastor at, 319 00:18:25.448 --> 00:18:29.484 align:middle line:90% Cornerstone, and Floodgate, which is a church 320 00:18:29.484 --> 00:18:32.912 align:middle line:90% that stayed open during COVID, unlike Cornerstone, 321 00:18:33.296 --> 00:18:37.077 align:middle line:90% and saw just a rush of people during the pandemic years. 322 00:18:37.450 --> 00:18:39.793 align:middle line:90% Can you tell us a little bit more about that story 323 00:18:39.793 --> 00:18:41.253 align:middle line:90% and Floodgate specifically? 324 00:18:41.253 --> 00:18:42.894 align:middle line:90% You spent quite a lot of time 325 00:18:43.074 --> 00:18:47.390 align:middle line:90% talking with the pastor there and, I would say, also challenging him 326 00:18:47.390 --> 00:18:50.795 align:middle line:90% on inaccurate statements that he was making. 327 00:18:51.526 --> 00:18:56.187 align:middle line:90% Yeah, so the floodgate story is really interesting because this church 328 00:18:56.467 --> 00:19:02.228 align:middle line:90% had, prior to COVID, typically around 100 people worshiping on a Sunday, 329 00:19:02.417 --> 00:19:04.617 align:middle line:90% they were a pretty small, little roadside church. 330 00:19:05.021 --> 00:19:09.482 align:middle line:90% And fast forward to a few months into COVID, and suddenly they had 331 00:19:09.482 --> 00:19:11.547 align:middle line:90% about 1,500 every Sunday. 332 00:19:11.739 --> 00:19:16.128 align:middle line:90% So they'd grown, you know, more than tenfold in their attendance 333 00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:18.536 align:middle line:90% and in their giving, I might add. 334 00:19:18.536 --> 00:19:21.089 align:middle line:90% The pastor told me at one point that their giving, 335 00:19:21.089 --> 00:19:25.757 align:middle line:90% their financial offerings in the pews on Sundays had increased, 336 00:19:25.757 --> 00:19:27.142 align:middle line:90% I think he told me, six-fold. 337 00:19:27.579 --> 00:19:32.391 align:middle line:90% And so, of course, this church and this pastor, who not only kept 338 00:19:32.391 --> 00:19:37.432 align:middle line:90% the church open, but basically turned his Sunday morning worship services 339 00:19:37.432 --> 00:19:42.744 align:middle line:90% into, like, elaborate Fox News segments, just conspiratorial, 340 00:19:43.241 --> 00:19:47.086 align:middle line:90% hateful, venomous rhetoric from the pulpit. 341 00:19:47.086 --> 00:19:50.323 align:middle line:90% In fact, at one point, he delivered a Nazi salute 342 00:19:50.323 --> 00:19:53.327 align:middle line:90% to Gretchen Whitmer, the Democratic governor of Michigan, 343 00:19:53.471 --> 00:19:55.479 align:middle line:90% and then bragged about it and laughed about it. 344 00:19:55.740 --> 00:19:59.208 align:middle line:90% And the scary thing about what was happening there 345 00:19:59.208 --> 00:20:01.362 align:middle line:90% at Floodgate, in my hometown, 346 00:20:01.678 --> 00:20:05.420 align:middle line:90% was that I saw people defecting from my home church, 347 00:20:05.420 --> 00:20:07.924 align:middle line:90% people who'd been there for many, many, many years, 348 00:20:07.924 --> 00:20:10.959 align:middle line:90% people who I thought to be pretty serious Christians, 349 00:20:11.167 --> 00:20:16.120 align:middle line:90% and they were leaving Cornerstone because the church had closed during COVID 350 00:20:16.356 --> 00:20:17.842 align:middle line:90% and they were coming to Floodgate. 351 00:20:18.242 --> 00:20:20.713 align:middle line:90% And the story of Floodgate, I will just say, 352 00:20:20.713 --> 00:20:24.222 align:middle line:90% it is the story of churches all over the country. 353 00:20:24.222 --> 00:20:27.664 align:middle line:90% This is not an isolated incident. It has happened everywhere. 354 00:20:27.937 --> 00:20:31.283 align:middle line:90% As David French jokes with me in the book, David French, 355 00:20:31.283 --> 00:20:34.617 align:middle line:90% who is a conservative evangelical Christian himself, 356 00:20:34.617 --> 00:20:38.413 align:middle line:90% and he is an opinion writer for "The New York Times" editorial page, 357 00:20:38.613 --> 00:20:42.134 align:middle line:90% David said to me at one point, he said, "Look, crazy is now 358 00:20:42.134 --> 00:20:43.888 align:middle line:90% a church growth strategy." 359 00:20:44.308 --> 00:20:45.513 align:middle line:90% And he was exactly right. 360 00:20:45.692 --> 00:20:51.782 align:middle line:90% Mm. Well, given what you're identifying here about demand, what people want 361 00:20:51.822 --> 00:20:55.931 align:middle line:90% to be hearing in their church environment, what does this mean 362 00:20:55.931 --> 00:20:58.904 align:middle line:90% for the political future of the evangelical church? 363 00:20:58.904 --> 00:21:04.465 align:middle line:90% Are we just going to keep marching toward a more politics-based identity 364 00:21:04.634 --> 00:21:06.791 align:middle line:90% for religious groups like evangelicals? 365 00:21:07.956 --> 00:21:11.897 align:middle line:90% My fear is that in the short term, yes, we will, 366 00:21:11.897 --> 00:21:17.467 align:middle line:90% because the political environment we are in now is so hot 367 00:21:17.656 --> 00:21:22.041 align:middle line:90% and so toxic, and all of the incentive systems sort of built in 368 00:21:22.041 --> 00:21:25.439 align:middle line:90% around us with social media and with cable news 369 00:21:25.663 --> 00:21:28.339 align:middle line:90% with the algorithms sort of set up the way they are, 370 00:21:28.755 --> 00:21:32.800 align:middle line:90% even those Christians I've met who have been making 371 00:21:32.800 --> 00:21:36.238 align:middle line:90% a really concerted effort to sort of extract themselves 372 00:21:36.238 --> 00:21:40.198 align:middle line:90% from the political hothouse have told me that, like, inevitably, 373 00:21:40.198 --> 00:21:41.663 align:middle line:90% they just keep getting sucked back in. 374 00:21:41.663 --> 00:21:44.229 align:middle line:90% Like, it's really, really hard to stay out of it. 375 00:21:44.634 --> 00:21:48.253 align:middle line:90% So it's just hard to imagine that this moment we're in 376 00:21:48.445 --> 00:21:51.743 align:middle line:90% is going to fade anytime soon. 377 00:21:52.420 --> 00:21:56.715 align:middle line:90% On the other hand, I would be remiss if I didn't say this. 378 00:21:57.232 --> 00:22:01.394 align:middle line:90% The great source of optimism I have, besides, you know, as a Christian, 379 00:22:01.394 --> 00:22:07.361 align:middle line:90% I have to be optimistic because I believe that God is sovereign over all of this, 380 00:22:07.361 --> 00:22:10.251 align:middle line:90% and as my dad used to joke, he used to always say, 381 00:22:10.251 --> 00:22:12.803 align:middle line:90% "God doesn't bite his fingernails," and I think that's true. 382 00:22:12.803 --> 00:22:15.392 align:middle line:90% And, you know, Christians shouldn't either. 383 00:22:15.961 --> 00:22:18.211 align:middle line:90% The other thing that gives me great optimism, though, 384 00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:22.676 align:middle line:90% is that there is a real generational clash here, a real generational break. 385 00:22:23.364 --> 00:22:27.302 align:middle line:90% As I've traveled and as I've met people in my generation 386 00:22:27.302 --> 00:22:30.252 align:middle line:90% and in the generation behind us on college campuses, 387 00:22:30.616 --> 00:22:36.793 align:middle line:90% what I've been really encouraged by is that the younger Christians, 388 00:22:37.250 --> 00:22:40.287 align:middle line:90% including those who are personally very conservative, 389 00:22:40.287 --> 00:22:43.080 align:middle line:90% that you could go up and down the list on a whole bunch of 390 00:22:43.080 --> 00:22:46.076 align:middle line:90% sort of policy questions and political debates, 391 00:22:46.076 --> 00:22:47.737 align:middle line:90% and they're very conservative. 392 00:22:47.993 --> 00:22:50.781 align:middle line:90% They would lean Republican as a default on all of this stuff. 393 00:22:51.174 --> 00:22:56.471 align:middle line:90% But they have no appetite for Trumpism. 394 00:22:56.535 --> 00:22:58.851 align:middle line:90% They have no appetite for nationalism. 395 00:22:58.915 --> 00:23:01.556 align:middle line:90% They have no appetite for any of this craziness 396 00:23:01.556 --> 00:23:03.916 align:middle line:90% that has permeated the church in recent years. 397 00:23:03.916 --> 00:23:09.856 align:middle line:90% And they are, like, they are really pushing back hard 398 00:23:09.856 --> 00:23:10.879 align:middle line:90% against all of this. 399 00:23:10.879 --> 00:23:13.027 align:middle line:90% They are organizing, and they are mobilizing, 400 00:23:13.027 --> 00:23:16.722 align:middle line:90% and they are trying to reclaim their faith tradition 401 00:23:16.990 --> 00:23:20.717 align:middle line:90% from their parents' generation. And that's a painful thing. 402 00:23:21.018 --> 00:23:23.879 align:middle line:90% It's a hard thing. It's going to take time. 403 00:23:24.216 --> 00:23:31.503 align:middle line:90% But that really has given me an incredible amount of optimism 404 00:23:31.503 --> 00:23:34.498 align:middle line:90% about the long-term prognosis here. 405 00:23:35.659 --> 00:23:39.636 align:middle line:90% Have you, I'm sure you have been, you probably can't help but think 406 00:23:39.636 --> 00:23:41.433 align:middle line:90% what your dad would think about this book. 407 00:23:42.785 --> 00:23:45.606 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I do think about that a lot. 408 00:23:46.458 --> 00:23:48.223 align:middle line:90% You know, it's funny, 409 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:51.856 align:middle line:90% I'm pretty sure I couldn't-- no, I'm not pretty sure, I'm totally sure 410 00:23:51.856 --> 00:23:54.421 align:middle line:90% that I could not have written this book while he was still alive 411 00:23:54.421 --> 00:23:58.278 align:middle line:90% because it just, it would have been too raw. 412 00:23:58.354 --> 00:24:01.203 align:middle line:90% It would have probably been too contentious. 413 00:24:01.695 --> 00:24:05.460 align:middle line:90% And I've heard his voice in my head at certain times when writing, 414 00:24:05.460 --> 00:24:08.332 align:middle line:90% saying, "Hey, you know, be humble, show a little grace here, 415 00:24:08.332 --> 00:24:11.233 align:middle line:90% show some humility," you know, "You don't have all the answers either." 416 00:24:11.233 --> 00:24:13.326 align:middle line:90% And, you know, he's right, I don't. 417 00:24:14.222 --> 00:24:17.591 align:middle line:90% I think there are things that I've written, 418 00:24:17.899 --> 00:24:21.416 align:middle line:90% arguments that I've made, that he would take issue with, for sure. 419 00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:25.264 align:middle line:90% The same as I did with him when he was alive, 420 00:24:25.264 --> 00:24:27.125 align:middle line:90% and it was always loving and always respectful, 421 00:24:27.125 --> 00:24:29.406 align:middle line:90% even when we really disagreed on things. 422 00:24:29.970 --> 00:24:35.292 align:middle line:90% But I am also quite confident, knowing my dad as well as I did, 423 00:24:35.292 --> 00:24:42.145 align:middle line:90% that he, above everything else, more than his country, 424 00:24:42.473 --> 00:24:46.891 align:middle line:90% more than even his family, his sons, his wife, he loved Jesus. 425 00:24:46.891 --> 00:24:53.335 align:middle line:90% And this book is meant to not just shine a light 426 00:24:53.335 --> 00:24:57.854 align:middle line:90% in the darkness to expose what's wrong in Christianity, 427 00:24:58.034 --> 00:25:02.160 align:middle line:90% but to illuminate what's right in Christianity, and that's Jesus. 428 00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:05.639 align:middle line:90% And ultimately, I think all of the other disagreements should fall 429 00:25:05.639 --> 00:25:06.474 align:middle line:90% by the wayside. 430 00:25:06.991 --> 00:25:11.492 align:middle line:90% Mmm. How is your faith after writing this book? 431 00:25:12.533 --> 00:25:15.799 align:middle line:90% I really worried that my faith would suffer from writing this book, 432 00:25:16.176 --> 00:25:20.195 align:middle line:90% and I prayed a lot and really worried a lot 433 00:25:20.659 --> 00:25:24.712 align:middle line:90% early in this process that my faith would be hurt. 434 00:25:24.712 --> 00:25:30.539 align:middle line:90% And, I mean, words just really can't articulate the comfort 435 00:25:30.539 --> 00:25:33.989 align:middle line:90% and the reassurance I felt throughout this whole process, 436 00:25:34.334 --> 00:25:40.830 align:middle line:90% and I have, in many ways, a far closer, far more intimate relationship 437 00:25:40.830 --> 00:25:43.635 align:middle line:90% with Jesus today than I did a few years ago 438 00:25:43.635 --> 00:25:45.297 align:middle line:90% when I set out on this project. 439 00:25:45.297 --> 00:25:48.897 align:middle line:90% And I'm really… to say that I'm grateful for it would be an understatement, 440 00:25:48.897 --> 00:25:52.231 align:middle line:90% but the short answer is my faith has never been better. 441 00:25:52.351 --> 00:25:55.231 align:middle line:90% And I hope, if nothing else, that maybe that offers a word 442 00:25:55.231 --> 00:25:57.359 align:middle line:90% of encouragement to people to say, listen, 443 00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:00.819 align:middle line:90% stepping out and kind of blowing the whistle on your own tribe 444 00:26:00.819 --> 00:26:02.804 align:middle line:90% can be tough, it can be painful, 445 00:26:02.964 --> 00:26:07.683 align:middle line:90% but you have a shepherd looking after you, and you will ultimately be just fine 446 00:26:07.683 --> 00:26:08.495 align:middle line:90% if you do so. 447 00:26:09.252 --> 00:26:16.443 align:middle line:90% Mmm. In your epilogue, you end with a rather big question 448 00:26:16.443 --> 00:26:19.232 align:middle line:90% which is, what is the purpose of the church? 449 00:26:20.045 --> 00:26:23.508 align:middle line:90% And I'm wondering how you're thinking about that question at the end, 450 00:26:23.508 --> 00:26:27.937 align:middle line:90% reflecting on all your reporting. What kind of answer have you arrived at? 451 00:26:28.864 --> 00:26:32.982 align:middle line:90% Well, I think it's almost easier to answer the question 452 00:26:32.982 --> 00:26:36.184 align:middle line:90% of what is not the purpose of the church. 453 00:26:37.897 --> 00:26:42.051 align:middle line:90% Not to be cute about it, but, you know, okay, the purpose of the church 454 00:26:42.231 --> 00:26:46.337 align:middle line:90% is not to stage political rallies. 455 00:26:46.749 --> 00:26:50.031 align:middle line:90% The purpose of the church is not to fight the culture wars. 456 00:26:50.411 --> 00:26:54.482 align:middle line:90% The purpose of the church is not to serve as a staging ground 457 00:26:54.482 --> 00:27:00.580 align:middle line:90% for some identitarian conflict with our perceived enemies. 458 00:27:01.376 --> 00:27:05.354 align:middle line:90% The purpose of the church, ultimately, as I understand it, 459 00:27:06.999 --> 00:27:11.517 align:middle line:90% is to take the most beautiful gift the world has ever received, 460 00:27:11.745 --> 00:27:21.788 align:middle line:90% which is the gospel of Jesus Christ, a poor, vagrant preacher from the ghettos 461 00:27:21.788 --> 00:27:25.959 align:middle line:90% of a Roman-occupied province who was executed by the state 462 00:27:25.959 --> 00:27:29.447 align:middle line:90% for claiming that he had a kingdom that was not of this world, 463 00:27:29.447 --> 00:27:32.024 align:middle line:90% and that if you followed him, you would have citizenship 464 00:27:32.024 --> 00:27:33.225 align:middle line:90% in that kingdom as well. 465 00:27:34.283 --> 00:27:38.856 align:middle line:90% And this man who took on flesh, who was fully God and fully man, 466 00:27:38.856 --> 00:27:43.280 align:middle line:90% who came to be the mediator between humanity and God, 467 00:27:44.081 --> 00:27:47.967 align:middle line:90% that if we take that message to the ends of the earth 468 00:27:48.284 --> 00:27:53.515 align:middle line:90% as he instructed us to, then we might just be persecuted for it. 469 00:27:53.831 --> 00:27:58.853 align:middle line:90% We might just be ostracized, marginalized. Who knows? We could even be hurt. 470 00:27:58.853 --> 00:28:01.182 align:middle line:90% We could be killed. We could be rounded up and imprisoned. 471 00:28:01.798 --> 00:28:03.675 align:middle line:90% That's happened throughout world history. 472 00:28:03.963 --> 00:28:09.069 align:middle line:90% But if we are carrying out that mission of what the church is called to be 473 00:28:09.357 --> 00:28:14.727 align:middle line:90% then we will be fulfilling our purpose as believers. 474 00:28:15.052 --> 00:28:18.293 align:middle line:90% And so, that must be both our individual purpose, 475 00:28:19.001 --> 00:28:21.983 align:middle line:90% and our collective purpose as the church. 476 00:28:21.983 --> 00:28:26.378 align:middle line:90% We are called not to go and change the world. 477 00:28:26.591 --> 00:28:31.558 align:middle line:90% We are called to be the world changed by Jesus already 478 00:28:31.730 --> 00:28:35.142 align:middle line:90% and to go and shine that light so that others may see it 479 00:28:35.142 --> 00:28:37.042 align:middle line:90% and that others might pursue him as well. 480 00:28:37.944 --> 00:28:43.923 align:middle line:90% Mm. Tim, thank you so much for your time and thanks for your reporting on this. 481 00:28:44.139 --> 00:28:45.460 align:middle line:90% It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. 482 00:28:45.567 --> 00:28:46.067 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES IN] 483 00:28:48.944 --> 00:28:53.173 align:middle line:90% You can find Tim Alberta's book, "The Kingdom, the Power and the Glory: 484 00:28:53.253 --> 00:28:57.537 align:middle line:90% American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism" on Apple Books. 485 00:28:58.062 --> 00:29:00.196 align:middle line:90% We'll include a link to it on our show notes page. 486 00:29:00.741 --> 00:29:03.006 align:middle line:90% And if you're listening in the Apple News app, 487 00:29:03.170 --> 00:29:06.395 align:middle line:90% we've teed up an excerpt from Tim's book to play for you next. 488 00:29:06.643 --> 00:29:07.540 align:middle line:90% Keep listening. 489 00:29:09.925 --> 00:29:10.425 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT]