WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.586 --> 00:00:02.029 align:middle line:90% Hey there! It's Shumita here. 2 00:00:02.095 --> 00:00:05.493 align:middle line:90% This is the last interview I recorded before going on maternity leave. 3 00:00:05.871 --> 00:00:06.670 align:middle line:90% Starting next week, 4 00:00:06.679 --> 00:00:10.060 align:middle line:90% you're gonna hear some great guest hosts filling in for me while I'm away. 5 00:00:10.181 --> 00:00:12.750 align:middle line:90% So, until then, enjoy this episode. 6 00:00:13.286 --> 00:00:13.786 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES IN] 7 00:00:16.733 --> 00:00:19.734 align:middle line:90% This is "In Conversation" from Apple News. 8 00:00:19.849 --> 00:00:21.125 align:middle line:90% I'm Shumita Basu. 9 00:00:21.416 --> 00:00:23.209 align:middle line:90% Today, inside the mind 10 00:00:23.219 --> 00:00:26.914 align:middle line:90% of one of "The New Yorker's" most recognizable cartoonists. 11 00:00:28.514 --> 00:00:29.014 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 12 00:00:34.964 --> 00:00:35.464 align:middle line:90% [MELLOW MUSIC] 13 00:00:37.382 --> 00:00:40.581 align:middle line:90% The other night, Roz Chast looked in the mirror and… 14 00:00:40.653 --> 00:00:42.540 align:middle line:90% …discovered, to my horror, 15 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:45.750 align:middle line:90% that I have a metal rod sticking out of my temple. 16 00:00:46.637 --> 00:00:49.054 align:middle line:90% So, she pulls out the rod. 17 00:00:49.151 --> 00:00:52.428 align:middle line:90% Which was painless. And I examined the hole. 18 00:00:52.630 --> 00:00:55.910 align:middle line:90% And she's totally freaked out by what she sees. 19 00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:57.729 align:middle line:90% It's a third eye. 20 00:00:57.983 --> 00:01:00.970 align:middle line:90% It is not cool. It is not mystical. 21 00:01:00.979 --> 00:01:04.123 align:middle line:90% It is tiny, and it's kind of disgusting. It's gross. 22 00:01:04.371 --> 00:01:07.835 align:middle line:90% And I hate it, but I can't get rid of it, so I decide to ignore it. 23 00:01:08.120 --> 00:01:10.106 align:middle line:90% She just accepts her fate. 24 00:01:10.263 --> 00:01:11.919 align:middle line:90% Yeah, it's like, what am I supposed to do? 25 00:01:11.919 --> 00:01:15.029 align:middle line:90% Like, just sit here on the sofa and, like, freak out about this thing? 26 00:01:15.029 --> 00:01:17.970 align:middle line:90% No, I'll, I don't know, put a Band-Aid over it or something, 27 00:01:17.970 --> 00:01:20.260 align:middle line:90% or comb my hair a different way. 28 00:01:21.036 --> 00:01:25.406 align:middle line:90% As you might've figured out by now, this didn't happen in real life. 29 00:01:25.663 --> 00:01:26.983 align:middle line:90% It happened in a dream. 30 00:01:27.548 --> 00:01:31.010 align:middle line:90% Our dreams follow a bizarre kind of logic. 31 00:01:31.190 --> 00:01:33.919 align:middle line:90% And Roz tries to capture some of that weirdness 32 00:01:33.919 --> 00:01:37.839 align:middle line:90% in her latest illustrated book called, "I Must Be Dreaming." 33 00:01:38.806 --> 00:01:41.809 align:middle line:90% Roz has been a cartoonist for "The New Yorker" for decades. 34 00:01:41.900 --> 00:01:44.612 align:middle line:90% Her style is instantly recognizable. 35 00:01:44.947 --> 00:01:48.169 align:middle line:90% She draws with these frantic, almost jittery lines. 36 00:01:48.510 --> 00:01:53.980 align:middle line:90% Her cartoons generally find the humor in the everyday anxieties of modern life. 37 00:01:55.214 --> 00:01:59.440 align:middle line:90% I started by asking Roz about her early career as a cartoonist. 38 00:01:59.720 --> 00:02:02.690 align:middle line:90% When she started at "The New Yorker" in 1978, 39 00:02:03.039 --> 00:02:04.660 align:middle line:90% she was in her early 20s. 40 00:02:04.725 --> 00:02:05.830 align:middle line:90% And at the time, 41 00:02:05.839 --> 00:02:09.008 align:middle line:90% there was only one other woman cartoonist at the magazine. 42 00:02:09.008 --> 00:02:09.508 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 43 00:02:12.524 --> 00:02:15.240 align:middle line:90% So, most of the time, it was… 44 00:02:15.250 --> 00:02:18.880 align:middle line:90% what I saw is a room full of, like, old guys. 45 00:02:18.889 --> 00:02:22.925 align:middle line:90% They were probably like 40, but in my eyes… 46 00:02:22.925 --> 00:02:24.736 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] They felt old to you. 47 00:02:24.736 --> 00:02:25.942 align:middle line:90% They felt old. 48 00:02:25.942 --> 00:02:27.355 align:middle line:90% It was very strange. 49 00:02:27.355 --> 00:02:32.736 align:middle line:90% There were so many things that were odd about me 50 00:02:32.736 --> 00:02:37.305 align:middle line:90% that being female was only one of many, many things. 51 00:02:37.305 --> 00:02:41.743 align:middle line:90% I mean, I was the only girl, I was considerably younger, 52 00:02:41.743 --> 00:02:43.243 align:middle line:90% and my work was so different. 53 00:02:43.243 --> 00:02:44.937 align:middle line:90% You know, that was maybe the main thing. 54 00:02:44.937 --> 00:02:48.473 align:middle line:90% I think if they didn't like me, and some of the older guys didn't, 55 00:02:48.473 --> 00:02:51.551 align:middle line:90% it wasn't because I was female, it was because they didn't like my work. 56 00:02:51.551 --> 00:02:54.167 align:middle line:90% Mm. What was different about your work? 57 00:02:54.167 --> 00:02:56.933 align:middle line:90% Uh, well, I didn't do the gag line. 58 00:02:57.300 --> 00:03:02.182 align:middle line:90% I, uh, drew in panels, and it was very idiosyncratic. 59 00:03:02.383 --> 00:03:03.458 align:middle line:90% It was personal. 60 00:03:03.564 --> 00:03:06.066 align:middle line:90% I didn't want to learn how to be a "New Yorker" cartoonist. 61 00:03:06.066 --> 00:03:08.250 align:middle line:90% I wanted to learn how to be me. 62 00:03:08.378 --> 00:03:08.878 align:middle line:90% Mm. 63 00:03:08.878 --> 00:03:11.452 align:middle line:90% And I know that sounds probably very conceited, 64 00:03:11.452 --> 00:03:13.571 align:middle line:90% but, um, I didn't think I could be-- 65 00:03:13.571 --> 00:03:15.901 align:middle line:90% I never planned on being a "New Yorker" cartoonist. 66 00:03:15.901 --> 00:03:18.480 align:middle line:90% I thought maybe I would work for "The Village Voice." 67 00:03:18.480 --> 00:03:21.700 align:middle line:90% And I was starting to sell cartoons to them, a little bit. 68 00:03:22.122 --> 00:03:24.589 align:middle line:90% And I was selling cartoons to the "National Lampoon." 69 00:03:24.589 --> 00:03:28.350 align:middle line:90% It was a big surprise to me that "The New Yorker" took a chance on me. 70 00:03:28.494 --> 00:03:29.599 align:middle line:90% Mm. Mm. 71 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:34.397 align:middle line:90% And it's still, you know, gratitude every day, really, for being… 72 00:03:34.552 --> 00:03:38.539 align:middle line:90% You know, Lee Lorenz was the cartoon editor, the art editor. 73 00:03:38.550 --> 00:03:43.572 align:middle line:90% I mean, at that point, he did the covers, he did the cartoons, he did the spots. 74 00:03:44.399 --> 00:03:46.850 align:middle line:90% There were no illustrations the way there are today. 75 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:49.472 align:middle line:90% There was no color inside the magazine. 76 00:03:49.783 --> 00:03:51.193 align:middle line:90% It's interesting that you say, 77 00:03:51.270 --> 00:03:54.770 align:middle line:90% maybe it was conceited of you to be thinking that way at the time, 78 00:03:54.779 --> 00:03:57.674 align:middle line:90% but I mean, the other way to put it is it sounds like, 79 00:03:57.674 --> 00:04:01.410 align:middle line:90% even at a young age and at an early point in your career, 80 00:04:01.419 --> 00:04:05.634 align:middle line:90% that you were very sure of what you were about. 81 00:04:06.062 --> 00:04:07.887 align:middle line:90% Um, I think… 82 00:04:07.887 --> 00:04:09.690 align:middle line:90% [CHUCKLING] Did it feel that way at the time or? 83 00:04:09.699 --> 00:04:11.177 align:middle line:90% I think I kind of… 84 00:04:11.910 --> 00:04:16.170 align:middle line:90% It's one of those things where I've never been good at figuring out 85 00:04:17.380 --> 00:04:19.928 align:middle line:90% what other people wanted from me. 86 00:04:20.620 --> 00:04:22.954 align:middle line:90% I've never been good at, really, other people, 87 00:04:22.954 --> 00:04:24.128 align:middle line:90% like figuring them out. 88 00:04:24.389 --> 00:04:27.072 align:middle line:90% And I think this has to do with being an only child, maybe, 89 00:04:27.072 --> 00:04:30.449 align:middle line:90% and spending most of my early years by myself. 90 00:04:30.949 --> 00:04:34.789 align:middle line:90% And to decide to be a "New Yorker" cartoonist 91 00:04:34.789 --> 00:04:36.592 align:middle line:90% and then studying "The New Yorker" cartoons 92 00:04:36.592 --> 00:04:41.039 align:middle line:90% and trying to learn how to draw or learn how to think 93 00:04:41.039 --> 00:04:43.479 align:middle line:90% in some other way than what I did 94 00:04:43.729 --> 00:04:47.248 align:middle line:90% just seemed way too hard and daunting and pointless. 95 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:48.224 align:middle line:90% Mm. 96 00:04:48.289 --> 00:04:49.760 align:middle line:90% I didn't think I could do that. 97 00:04:50.361 --> 00:04:52.482 align:middle line:90% You know, the only thing I really could do 98 00:04:52.950 --> 00:04:56.450 align:middle line:90% was draw how I drew and think like I thought 99 00:04:57.190 --> 00:04:59.690 align:middle line:90% and pay attention to what I thought was funny, 100 00:04:59.868 --> 00:05:02.226 align:middle line:90% not try to figure out what somebody else thought was funny. 101 00:05:02.420 --> 00:05:03.315 align:middle line:90% But it's clearly hit-- 102 00:05:03.315 --> 00:05:05.818 align:middle line:90% It's, it's hit a point with people. [LAUGHS] 103 00:05:05.818 --> 00:05:06.675 align:middle line:90% Yeah. Yeah. 104 00:05:06.675 --> 00:05:08.850 align:middle line:90% Enough people are finding it very relatable 105 00:05:08.859 --> 00:05:10.617 align:middle line:90% and have for, have for many years. 106 00:05:10.617 --> 00:05:13.222 align:middle line:90% Yeah, well, knock on wood, you know, 107 00:05:13.222 --> 00:05:17.170 align:middle line:90% because it's, it's still surprising to me because it is so personal. 108 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:18.333 align:middle line:90% You know? 109 00:05:18.798 --> 00:05:21.787 align:middle line:90% What was your first published cartoon in "The New Yorker"? 110 00:05:22.235 --> 00:05:26.178 align:middle line:90% It was something called "Little Things," and it was… 111 00:05:26.178 --> 00:05:32.203 align:middle line:90% I mean, when I submitted to "The New Yorker" in April of 1978, 112 00:05:32.769 --> 00:05:35.760 align:middle line:90% I really didn't know how to do this exactly, 113 00:05:35.769 --> 00:05:37.839 align:middle line:90% you know, how many cartoons to submit. 114 00:05:38.299 --> 00:05:42.113 align:middle line:90% Um, I put in about 60 cartoons into a portfolio. 115 00:05:42.113 --> 00:05:44.630 align:middle line:90% I really was not sure what to do, and… 116 00:05:44.630 --> 00:05:46.837 align:middle line:90% Wow. Sixty. Six-zero, you're saying. 117 00:05:46.837 --> 00:05:49.938 align:middle line:90% Yeah. Six-zero, yeah. Um… 118 00:05:49.938 --> 00:05:52.179 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I don't think a lot of people realize the process, actually… 119 00:05:52.179 --> 00:05:52.715 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 120 00:05:52.715 --> 00:05:54.816 align:middle line:90% …of trying to get a cartoon accepted by "The New Yorker," 121 00:05:54.816 --> 00:05:56.836 align:middle line:90% but it's, it's, um, pretty daunting. 122 00:05:56.836 --> 00:06:00.487 align:middle line:90% It's-- I-- Well, that was just what I had, and… 123 00:06:00.487 --> 00:06:00.987 align:middle line:90% Mm. 124 00:06:00.987 --> 00:06:05.184 align:middle line:90% I mean, I certainly don't submit 60 cartoons a week anymore. [LAUGHS] 125 00:06:05.184 --> 00:06:05.729 align:middle line:90% Sure. 126 00:06:05.729 --> 00:06:07.008 align:middle line:90% But, you know, I submit a group. 127 00:06:07.008 --> 00:06:08.419 align:middle line:90% I submit six or eight. 128 00:06:08.419 --> 00:06:12.608 align:middle line:90% Um, most people submit around that number, sometimes ten. 129 00:06:12.608 --> 00:06:15.921 align:middle line:90% But anyway, the first cartoon was this cartoon called "Little Things," 130 00:06:15.921 --> 00:06:19.498 align:middle line:90% and it was, out of the 60 cartoons, it was probably the weirdest. 131 00:06:19.498 --> 00:06:21.419 align:middle line:90% It was the most idiosyncratic. 132 00:06:21.419 --> 00:06:25.039 align:middle line:90% It was this… [SIGHS] kind of these, like, 133 00:06:25.039 --> 00:06:29.139 align:middle line:90% little shapes that I made up and made up these names. 134 00:06:29.139 --> 00:06:34.879 align:middle line:90% And it was the kind of doodling that I do when I'm by myself 135 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:36.517 align:middle line:90% and I just wanna make myself laugh. 136 00:06:36.517 --> 00:06:40.701 align:middle line:90% Or, like, if I were in class or something and it was, like, very boring, 137 00:06:40.701 --> 00:06:44.555 align:middle line:90% I might doodle this and, like, pass it to somebody, you know, 138 00:06:44.555 --> 00:06:46.698 align:middle line:90% to just try to make them laugh or something. 139 00:06:46.698 --> 00:06:47.454 align:middle line:90% Mm-hmm. 140 00:06:47.454 --> 00:06:54.170 align:middle line:90% Um, and really out of all the cartoons, the fact that they chose that one, I… 141 00:06:54.170 --> 00:06:55.403 align:middle line:90% it's a mystery to me. 142 00:06:55.403 --> 00:06:59.273 align:middle line:90% It still is a mystery because it was, I think, the oddest. 143 00:06:59.273 --> 00:07:04.828 align:middle line:90% But when my cartoon started running, some of those old guys were not happy. 144 00:07:04.994 --> 00:07:09.064 align:middle line:90% And one of them asked Lee Lorenz, um, whether I owed his family money. 145 00:07:09.853 --> 00:07:11.940 align:middle line:90% [SCOFFS] Oh, boy. Yeah. 146 00:07:11.940 --> 00:07:14.510 align:middle line:90% Yeah, yeah. I didn't know that at the beginning. 147 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:15.769 align:middle line:90% Lee told me later. 148 00:07:16.239 --> 00:07:18.553 align:middle line:90% But they started to like my stuff. 149 00:07:18.553 --> 00:07:22.266 align:middle line:90% I think it just took them a little, a little bit of time. 150 00:07:22.817 --> 00:07:25.410 align:middle line:90% Was there ever a time in your life, or a period in your life, 151 00:07:25.420 --> 00:07:27.290 align:middle line:90% where you struggled to find things funny? 152 00:07:27.498 --> 00:07:30.744 align:middle line:90% Uh, most of the time, actually. I mean… 153 00:07:30.744 --> 00:07:31.649 align:middle line:90% Oh. Really? 154 00:07:31.660 --> 00:07:34.859 align:middle line:90% It's this constant sort of feeling 155 00:07:34.869 --> 00:07:38.161 align:middle line:90% that everything is going to be a disaster shortly. 156 00:07:38.637 --> 00:07:42.809 align:middle line:90% Um, dread and, uh, you know, not funny at all. 157 00:07:43.510 --> 00:07:46.350 align:middle line:90% And then sometimes, it seems very funny. 158 00:07:46.359 --> 00:07:48.641 align:middle line:90% So, it's like two things at the same time. 159 00:07:49.369 --> 00:07:53.634 align:middle line:90% Art school was probably the worst, [LAUGHS] in some ways. 160 00:07:53.634 --> 00:07:54.134 align:middle line:90% [BASU LAUGHS] 161 00:07:55.431 --> 00:07:59.420 align:middle line:90% I think you're one of many, many artists who's probably said some version of that. 162 00:07:59.429 --> 00:08:02.212 align:middle line:90% Why, why did you think so? Why was it so for you? 163 00:08:02.212 --> 00:08:07.295 align:middle line:90% Oh, God. It's just too much, um… 164 00:08:07.295 --> 00:08:12.128 align:middle line:90% too much talking about art and not enough just kind of working. 165 00:08:12.128 --> 00:08:13.008 align:middle line:90% Mm. 166 00:08:13.008 --> 00:08:15.151 align:middle line:90% At least for me, you know. 167 00:08:15.151 --> 00:08:15.887 align:middle line:90% Mm-hmm. 168 00:08:15.887 --> 00:08:17.997 align:middle line:90% It also has to do with when I went to school. 169 00:08:17.997 --> 00:08:19.882 align:middle line:90% I was in art school in the '70s. 170 00:08:19.882 --> 00:08:21.065 align:middle line:90% And it was, you know, 171 00:08:21.065 --> 00:08:26.252 align:middle line:90% conceptual art and installation art and performance art, 172 00:08:26.252 --> 00:08:29.573 align:middle line:90% and this very serious, intellectual… 173 00:08:29.573 --> 00:08:32.853 align:middle line:90% You know, you take a rusty pipe and you lean it up against the wall. 174 00:08:32.853 --> 00:08:38.272 align:middle line:90% Then, you write 30 pages about intertextuality or something. 175 00:08:38.272 --> 00:08:40.838 align:middle line:90% And I was completely out of my depth. 176 00:08:40.838 --> 00:08:44.272 align:middle line:90% You know, it was like, "Oh, my God! I'm from Brooklyn. I did not-- 177 00:08:44.272 --> 00:08:47.342 align:middle line:90% I don't know what these terms mean. I just want to draw. 178 00:08:47.342 --> 00:08:48.993 align:middle line:90% I don't know anything." 179 00:08:48.993 --> 00:08:50.751 align:middle line:90% You know, I'm glad I went 180 00:08:50.751 --> 00:08:53.672 align:middle line:90% because I feel like it did prepare me a little bit more 181 00:08:53.672 --> 00:08:57.193 align:middle line:90% for being, uh, an artist as your job. 182 00:08:57.249 --> 00:08:59.100 align:middle line:90% But it was definitely… 183 00:08:59.409 --> 00:09:01.904 align:middle line:90% I did not draw cartoons while I was in art school. 184 00:09:02.229 --> 00:09:04.880 align:middle line:90% It was too, um… I felt embarrassed. 185 00:09:04.890 --> 00:09:06.479 align:middle line:90% What were you working on in art school? 186 00:09:06.479 --> 00:09:07.719 align:middle line:90% Ha! I was a painting major. 187 00:09:07.719 --> 00:09:08.385 align:middle line:90% Mm. 188 00:09:08.385 --> 00:09:11.887 align:middle line:90% My paintings sucked. They were terrible. They were really awful. 189 00:09:11.887 --> 00:09:13.535 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] Oh, no. 190 00:09:13.535 --> 00:09:17.242 align:middle line:90% So, what was it about drawing cartoons that, that was calling to you? 191 00:09:17.242 --> 00:09:20.882 align:middle line:90% It is weird how you get called to things, right? 192 00:09:20.882 --> 00:09:25.006 align:middle line:90% I mean, it, it's like, how did you decide that you wanted to talk to people 193 00:09:25.006 --> 00:09:27.343 align:middle line:90% and ask people questions and interview people? 194 00:09:27.343 --> 00:09:30.852 align:middle line:90% And it's somehow, that's what pulled you in, you know? 195 00:09:30.852 --> 00:09:33.010 align:middle line:90% Mm. Mm. I'll tell you, I mean, for, for me? 196 00:09:33.010 --> 00:09:34.742 align:middle line:90% Yeah. Yeah, I'd like to know. 197 00:09:34.742 --> 00:09:36.785 align:middle line:90% Literally how I'd answer that question? 198 00:09:36.785 --> 00:09:39.315 align:middle line:90% For me, it was very much about finding my tribe. 199 00:09:39.315 --> 00:09:43.164 align:middle line:90% Um, once I found people in this line of work, 200 00:09:43.164 --> 00:09:45.030 align:middle line:90% once I started to meet people in this line of work, 201 00:09:45.030 --> 00:09:49.945 align:middle line:90% I realized I wanted to be more like them. 202 00:09:49.945 --> 00:09:51.679 align:middle line:90% I wanted to be around them. 203 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:52.407 align:middle line:90% Mm-hmm. 204 00:09:52.407 --> 00:09:54.580 align:middle line:90% I wanted to be in conversation with them. 205 00:09:54.580 --> 00:09:56.404 align:middle line:90% So, that's, that was the biggest sign to me. 206 00:09:56.404 --> 00:09:57.953 align:middle line:90% I want to be around this. 207 00:09:57.953 --> 00:09:59.714 align:middle line:90% Yeah. Yes. Yes. 208 00:09:59.714 --> 00:10:04.354 align:middle line:90% Well, that's, that's definitely how I felt the first day I went to "The New Yorker" 209 00:10:04.354 --> 00:10:08.668 align:middle line:90% and when I went down that hallway to meet Lee Lorenz. 210 00:10:08.668 --> 00:10:11.004 align:middle line:90% And this is going to sound bats, 211 00:10:11.004 --> 00:10:14.944 align:middle line:90% but walking down that hallway in the old building, 212 00:10:15.064 --> 00:10:16.864 align:middle line:90% it was really kind of crummy. 213 00:10:17.109 --> 00:10:19.147 align:middle line:90% It was not slick at all. 214 00:10:19.479 --> 00:10:22.587 align:middle line:90% Um, it was a little bit rundown looking, which I like. 215 00:10:22.587 --> 00:10:23.570 align:middle line:90% Mm. Mm-hmm. 216 00:10:23.682 --> 00:10:28.044 align:middle line:90% And, uh, the light fixtures were the same that they had in my public school, 217 00:10:28.270 --> 00:10:30.960 align:middle line:90% my grade school, P.S. 217 in Brooklyn. 218 00:10:31.287 --> 00:10:31.915 align:middle line:90% And I thought, 219 00:10:31.915 --> 00:10:35.260 align:middle line:90% "Oh, this is sort of familiar in this weird way. 220 00:10:35.260 --> 00:10:35.760 align:middle line:90% [BASU CHUCKLES] 221 00:10:35.862 --> 00:10:38.059 align:middle line:90% Might have had, like, similar doorknobs too. 222 00:10:38.070 --> 00:10:40.090 align:middle line:90% It was like something about the… I don't know. 223 00:10:40.217 --> 00:10:44.050 align:middle line:90% But it's different from people. [LAUGHS] 224 00:10:44.050 --> 00:10:45.989 align:middle line:90% Doorknobs, people. Oh, same. 225 00:10:45.989 --> 00:10:46.489 align:middle line:90% [BASU AND CHAST LAUGH] 226 00:10:47.020 --> 00:10:50.330 align:middle line:90% No, but you're saying you felt a, you felt, like, a kinship. 227 00:10:50.340 --> 00:10:51.368 align:middle line:90% A kinship, yeah. 228 00:10:51.368 --> 00:10:51.869 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 229 00:10:51.869 --> 00:10:52.369 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 230 00:10:52.488 --> 00:10:52.988 align:middle line:90% [UPBEAT MUSIC] 231 00:10:53.239 --> 00:10:57.848 align:middle line:90% In many ways, "New Yorker" cartoons have transcended the magazine itself. 232 00:10:58.162 --> 00:11:00.664 align:middle line:90% You can find them hanging on people's walls, 233 00:11:00.777 --> 00:11:03.092 align:middle line:90% in coffee table books, and calendars. 234 00:11:03.513 --> 00:11:07.777 align:middle line:90% My mind always reaches for an episode of "Seinfeld" from 1998, 235 00:11:07.963 --> 00:11:10.640 align:middle line:90% where Elaine sees a cartoon in "The New Yorker," 236 00:11:10.650 --> 00:11:12.739 align:middle line:90% and she just doesn't get it. 237 00:11:12.814 --> 00:11:14.780 align:middle line:90% She doesn't understand what's so funny about it. 238 00:11:15.094 --> 00:11:17.799 align:middle line:90% And she ultimately goes to "The New Yorker" office 239 00:11:17.873 --> 00:11:20.267 align:middle line:90% to ask the editor to explain the joke. 240 00:11:20.267 --> 00:11:20.767 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 241 00:11:20.767 --> 00:11:21.267 align:middle line:90% [START SEINFELD ARCHIVAL CLIP] 242 00:11:21.267 --> 00:11:24.207 align:middle line:90% Well, Ms. Benes, uh, cartoons are like gossamer, 243 00:11:24.207 --> 00:11:27.826 align:middle line:90% and one doesn't dissect gossamer. [CHUCKLES] 244 00:11:27.826 --> 00:11:30.234 align:middle line:90% Well, you don't have to dissect it. 245 00:11:30.234 --> 00:11:34.212 align:middle line:90% If you could just tell me why this is supposed to be funny. 246 00:11:34.321 --> 00:11:37.790 align:middle line:90% Oh, it's merely a commentary on contemporary mores. 247 00:11:39.574 --> 00:11:42.690 align:middle line:90% But what is… the comment? 248 00:11:42.690 --> 00:11:43.190 align:middle line:90% [LIVE AUDIENCE LAUGHS] 249 00:11:43.820 --> 00:11:45.280 align:middle line:90% It's a slice of life. 250 00:11:45.619 --> 00:11:46.380 align:middle line:90% No, it isn't. 251 00:11:46.380 --> 00:11:47.052 align:middle line:90% A pun? 252 00:11:47.052 --> 00:11:48.020 align:middle line:90% I don't think so. 253 00:11:48.190 --> 00:11:49.207 align:middle line:90% Vorshtein? 254 00:11:50.685 --> 00:11:51.849 align:middle line:90% That's not a word. 255 00:11:51.849 --> 00:11:52.349 align:middle line:90% [LIVE AUDIENCE LAUGHS] 256 00:11:53.510 --> 00:11:55.130 align:middle line:90% You have no idea what this means, do you? 257 00:11:55.140 --> 00:11:55.640 align:middle line:90% No. 258 00:11:55.640 --> 00:11:57.260 align:middle line:90% No. Then why did you print it? 259 00:11:57.260 --> 00:11:58.299 align:middle line:90% I like the kitty. 260 00:11:58.299 --> 00:11:58.799 align:middle line:90% [LIVE AUDIENCE LAUGHS] 261 00:11:59.912 --> 00:12:00.412 align:middle line:90% [END SEINFELD ARCHIVAL CLIP] 262 00:12:00.412 --> 00:12:03.680 align:middle line:90% One thing that I feel like that episode kind of perpetuated 263 00:12:03.680 --> 00:12:08.528 align:middle line:90% is this idea that "New Yorker" cartoons are, are funny, 264 00:12:08.528 --> 00:12:12.338 align:middle line:90% but also a little bit maybe, like, inaccessible, 265 00:12:12.338 --> 00:12:16.841 align:middle line:90% or there needs to be something very, very high level about them. 266 00:12:16.841 --> 00:12:17.341 align:middle line:90% [CHAST LAUGHS] 267 00:12:17.341 --> 00:12:19.592 align:middle line:90% Um, do, do you think that that's… 268 00:12:19.592 --> 00:12:22.073 align:middle line:90% I don't know. Do you think that that, that did a service 269 00:12:22.073 --> 00:12:24.664 align:middle line:90% to people's understanding of "New Yorker" cartoons, 270 00:12:24.664 --> 00:12:26.404 align:middle line:90% or would you take issue with that? 271 00:12:26.570 --> 00:12:31.440 align:middle line:90% Well, I think that, you know, with, with any kind of cartoons or jokes, 272 00:12:31.808 --> 00:12:33.539 align:middle line:90% it's going to hit people differently, 273 00:12:33.549 --> 00:12:35.944 align:middle line:90% and some people are going to get it and some people aren't. 274 00:12:36.469 --> 00:12:38.378 align:middle line:90% That was a funny episode. I remember that. 275 00:12:38.739 --> 00:12:43.700 align:middle line:90% Uh, but I will tell you that my father used to keep this cartoon in his wallet. 276 00:12:43.710 --> 00:12:46.865 align:middle line:90% It was not one of mine. It was from the "Saturday Review," 277 00:12:46.865 --> 00:12:49.729 align:middle line:90% which was an old magazine that my parents subscribed to, 278 00:12:49.739 --> 00:12:53.190 align:middle line:90% in addition to "The New Yorker" and all these other places, things. 279 00:12:53.390 --> 00:12:58.200 align:middle line:90% Um, but it was a cartoon of a guy on the couch at his shrink's. 280 00:12:58.419 --> 00:13:02.164 align:middle line:90% And the gag line was, "I feel inferior 281 00:13:02.164 --> 00:13:05.477 align:middle line:90% because I don't understand the cartoons in 'The New Yorker.'" 282 00:13:05.981 --> 00:13:06.481 align:middle line:90% [BASU LAUGHS] 283 00:13:07.057 --> 00:13:10.530 align:middle line:90% And my father loved this cartoon, 284 00:13:10.539 --> 00:13:15.630 align:middle line:90% and he would just, you know, show it to people at the drop of a hat. 285 00:13:16.340 --> 00:13:20.469 align:middle line:90% And I just actually heard from a friend recently, 286 00:13:20.725 --> 00:13:22.442 align:middle line:90% he confessed something to me, 287 00:13:22.700 --> 00:13:28.757 align:middle line:90% that he was at some book event and he met my parents, 288 00:13:29.203 --> 00:13:31.690 align:middle line:90% and my parents came up to him, 289 00:13:31.700 --> 00:13:35.639 align:middle line:90% and, you know, they were, they were proud, but they didn't… 290 00:13:35.729 --> 00:13:37.409 align:middle line:90% You know, they were "New Yorker" subscribers. 291 00:13:37.419 --> 00:13:41.020 align:middle line:90% They knew it was, like, something to get a cartoon in "The New Yorker," 292 00:13:41.190 --> 00:13:44.005 align:middle line:90% but they really, I don't think, understood most of my stuff. 293 00:13:44.239 --> 00:13:47.559 align:middle line:90% They understood, like, you know, Borscht Belt kind of jokes. 294 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:49.552 align:middle line:90% "A guy goes to the doctor. Blah, blah, blah, blah." 295 00:13:49.552 --> 00:13:50.436 align:middle line:90% You know, punchline. 296 00:13:50.885 --> 00:13:53.165 align:middle line:90% So, my parents come up to this guy. 297 00:13:53.451 --> 00:13:57.024 align:middle line:90% Um, he was actually in publishing, and I guess they clocked that. 298 00:13:57.024 --> 00:14:02.559 align:middle line:90% And they had this little envelope with my cartoons in it 299 00:14:02.570 --> 00:14:04.330 align:middle line:90% that they'd clipped out of the magazine, 300 00:14:04.644 --> 00:14:08.951 align:middle line:90% and they said to him, "Could you tell us why these are funny?" 301 00:14:09.415 --> 00:14:09.915 align:middle line:90% [BASU AND CHAST LAUGH] 302 00:14:14.171 --> 00:14:14.899 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 303 00:14:14.899 --> 00:14:16.869 align:middle line:90% That's, that's a great story. 304 00:14:16.869 --> 00:14:20.221 align:middle line:90% Yeah. Yeah. It was like, yeah, that's my parents. 305 00:14:20.221 --> 00:14:21.419 align:middle line:90% That's my parents. 306 00:14:21.419 --> 00:14:22.751 align:middle line:90% That's definitely them. 307 00:14:22.751 --> 00:14:27.098 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] That's, that's very, very funny. 308 00:14:27.166 --> 00:14:30.837 align:middle line:90% Um, in your book, you write that cartoon work 309 00:14:30.837 --> 00:14:33.634 align:middle line:90% can sometimes feel very dreamish. 310 00:14:33.826 --> 00:14:34.400 align:middle line:90% Yes. 311 00:14:34.400 --> 00:14:36.440 align:middle line:90% Can you say more about that? What do you mean by that? 312 00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:37.969 align:middle line:90% What's the connection you're seeing? 313 00:14:37.969 --> 00:14:40.808 align:middle line:90% Um, I think it's kind of a… 314 00:14:41.663 --> 00:14:45.679 align:middle line:90% You're letting your thoughts kind of flow in this way. 315 00:14:46.109 --> 00:14:53.950 align:middle line:90% And it's maybe kind of an unusual thing to do for a job, 316 00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:58.333 align:middle line:90% where, you know, I go into my studio, and I'm sitting at my desk 317 00:14:58.333 --> 00:15:03.580 align:middle line:90% and facing what this old-time cartoonist used to call 318 00:15:03.590 --> 00:15:08.263 align:middle line:90% "the blazing island of white," and, uh, you know, 319 00:15:08.263 --> 00:15:12.690 align:middle line:90% just kind of going through some cartoon ideas 320 00:15:12.700 --> 00:15:15.618 align:middle line:90% that I've scrawled on pieces of paper throughout the week, 321 00:15:15.618 --> 00:15:19.369 align:middle line:90% and just basically sitting and thinking. 322 00:15:19.660 --> 00:15:22.200 align:middle line:90% In fact, I wrote about, in this book, 323 00:15:22.210 --> 00:15:25.900 align:middle line:90% about once my kid was watching me from the door of the studio, 324 00:15:25.909 --> 00:15:27.043 align:middle line:90% and I was just kind of, like, 325 00:15:27.043 --> 00:15:29.510 align:middle line:90% sitting and staring at this piece of paper, 326 00:15:29.710 --> 00:15:33.270 align:middle line:90% and he said, "What are you doing?" And I said, "I'm thinking." 327 00:15:33.590 --> 00:15:36.960 align:middle line:90% You know, because that's really what I spend a lot of time doing. 328 00:15:36.969 --> 00:15:39.419 align:middle line:90% Just-- And so, in that way, it's like dreaming. 329 00:15:39.429 --> 00:15:43.690 align:middle line:90% It's like letting your thoughts kind of go from one thing to another 330 00:15:43.700 --> 00:15:46.417 align:middle line:90% and seeing whether a cartoon comes up. 331 00:15:46.417 --> 00:15:48.809 align:middle line:90% Mm, daydreaming, some might say. 332 00:15:48.809 --> 00:15:50.615 align:middle line:90% Daydreaming! It's like daydreaming, 333 00:15:50.615 --> 00:15:53.535 align:middle line:90% but, but with a little bit more focus, maybe. 334 00:15:53.535 --> 00:15:57.356 align:middle line:90% I mean, Murakami wrote about that also with writing. 335 00:15:57.356 --> 00:16:00.775 align:middle line:90% That for him, writing was like dreaming, but with more… 336 00:16:00.775 --> 00:16:04.955 align:middle line:90% I mean, I have the quote in here, um, because I thought it was so… 337 00:16:04.955 --> 00:16:06.307 align:middle line:90% Here it is. Um… 338 00:16:06.470 --> 00:16:11.306 align:middle line:90% Haruki Murakami once said, "For me, writing a novel is like having a dream. 339 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:15.074 align:middle line:90% Writing a novel lets me intentionally dream while I'm awake." 340 00:16:15.880 --> 00:16:17.459 align:middle line:90% And then I wrote, uh, 341 00:16:17.459 --> 00:16:20.330 align:middle line:90% "Working on my weekly group of cartoons for 'The New Yorker' 342 00:16:20.446 --> 00:16:23.546 align:middle line:90% sometimes feels dreamish, especially when it's going well. 343 00:16:23.909 --> 00:16:26.900 align:middle line:90% I sit at my drawing table for hours, thinking, doodling, 344 00:16:26.909 --> 00:16:29.210 align:middle line:90% jotting down ideas that might become cartoons 345 00:16:29.219 --> 00:16:30.900 align:middle line:90% on a nearby scrap of paper. 346 00:16:31.134 --> 00:16:32.239 align:middle line:90% At the end of the workday, 347 00:16:32.250 --> 00:16:34.580 align:middle line:90% the scraps containing these half-baked ideas 348 00:16:34.590 --> 00:16:36.130 align:middle line:90% go into my idea box. 349 00:16:36.322 --> 00:16:39.396 align:middle line:90% When I look at them later, some ideas gel into cartoons, 350 00:16:39.509 --> 00:16:40.630 align:middle line:90% but many do not. 351 00:16:40.844 --> 00:16:44.599 align:middle line:90% 'Salad bar from 1066,' 'Turkey in therapy.' 352 00:16:44.689 --> 00:16:47.743 align:middle line:90% Sometimes, it's just a single word. 'Podiatrist.' 353 00:16:48.071 --> 00:16:50.374 align:middle line:90% Periodically, I toss a bunch in the garbage." 354 00:16:50.638 --> 00:16:52.085 align:middle line:90% So, it sounds like that's part of your process, 355 00:16:52.094 --> 00:16:56.184 align:middle line:90% is intentionally trying to engage this dreamy part of your awake state. 356 00:16:56.195 --> 00:17:00.335 align:middle line:90% But, in a way, your sleep state is offering this up all the time. 357 00:17:00.335 --> 00:17:03.955 align:middle line:90% Yeah. Yes. Well, uh, the, the dream state, 358 00:17:04.314 --> 00:17:07.650 align:middle line:90% there's no, uh, judgment part. 359 00:17:07.660 --> 00:17:10.079 align:middle line:90% There's nothing, there's no part that's saying, 360 00:17:10.089 --> 00:17:13.989 align:middle line:90% "Well, this is a terrible idea. This is just useless. This is… 361 00:17:14.140 --> 00:17:17.187 align:middle line:90% You know, you're wasting your time. Why don't you at least clean the house?" 362 00:17:17.187 --> 00:17:21.562 align:middle line:90% You know, it's not… It's, it's not that. [CHUCKLES] 363 00:17:22.491 --> 00:17:24.979 align:middle line:90% Can I ask you to describe one of the cartoons in your book? 364 00:17:24.979 --> 00:17:26.219 align:middle line:90% Uh, sure. 365 00:17:26.310 --> 00:17:29.900 align:middle line:90% I thought maybe I'd ask you to, to tell us what was on page 21. 366 00:17:29.910 --> 00:17:31.360 align:middle line:90% This one's called "Nubbins." 367 00:17:31.432 --> 00:17:32.852 align:middle line:90% Oh, yeah. 368 00:17:33.069 --> 00:17:34.344 align:middle line:90% This feels like such a classic-- 369 00:17:34.344 --> 00:17:37.740 align:middle line:90% like relatable, classic dream scenario… 370 00:17:37.751 --> 00:17:39.151 align:middle line:90% Um, okay. 371 00:17:39.151 --> 00:17:40.286 align:middle line:90% …that just makes no sense. 372 00:17:40.286 --> 00:17:42.807 align:middle line:90% Yes, yes, but it makes dream sense. 373 00:17:42.807 --> 00:17:43.311 align:middle line:90% Um… 374 00:17:43.311 --> 00:17:43.839 align:middle line:90% Yes. 375 00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:47.559 align:middle line:90% And I guess it's a sort of, a little bit of a lucid dream? 376 00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:51.549 align:middle line:90% And a lucid dream is a dream where you're aware that you're dreaming, 377 00:17:51.549 --> 00:17:54.843 align:middle line:90% and you can sort of change the, the direction. 378 00:17:54.843 --> 00:17:57.261 align:middle line:90% You can change the action in the dream at will, 379 00:17:57.261 --> 00:17:59.786 align:middle line:90% and continuing your dream, not waking up. 380 00:17:59.786 --> 00:18:01.690 align:middle line:90% But this dream was called "Nubbins." 381 00:18:01.690 --> 00:18:04.369 align:middle line:90% And, uh, my kid was sitting on my lap, 382 00:18:04.369 --> 00:18:06.579 align:middle line:90% and I noticed that his fingers were nubbins. 383 00:18:06.579 --> 00:18:09.897 align:middle line:90% And he was little at the time, maybe three. 384 00:18:09.897 --> 00:18:13.500 align:middle line:90% And his fingers sort of shrank into his hand 385 00:18:13.500 --> 00:18:15.848 align:middle line:90% so that he had palms, 386 00:18:16.109 --> 00:18:19.680 align:middle line:90% but where the fingers should be were just these little, like, bumps. 387 00:18:20.010 --> 00:18:22.770 align:middle line:90% And then I looked at my hands, this is in the dream, 388 00:18:23.016 --> 00:18:25.430 align:middle line:90% and my fingers were also nubbins. 389 00:18:25.439 --> 00:18:27.493 align:middle line:90% You know, just these palms with these little bumps. 390 00:18:27.751 --> 00:18:30.150 align:middle line:90% And then, suddenly, I realized I was dreaming 391 00:18:30.290 --> 00:18:35.216 align:middle line:90% and I could make our fingers lengthen or nubify at will. 392 00:18:35.216 --> 00:18:37.608 align:middle line:90% Like, [ASCENDING VOICE] "bloop," there come the fingers, 393 00:18:37.800 --> 00:18:40.234 align:middle line:90% [DESCENDING VOICE] "bloop," like, now they're nubbins again. 394 00:18:40.449 --> 00:18:45.659 align:middle line:90% And I said to my kid, I said, "Ha ha! We have sleepy hands." 395 00:18:46.515 --> 00:18:47.015 align:middle line:90% [BASU AND CHAST LAUGH] 396 00:18:49.710 --> 00:18:51.297 align:middle line:90% It's just, it's totally absurd. 397 00:18:51.297 --> 00:18:55.810 align:middle line:90% Yeah, it's totally absurd, uh, but somewhere in that dream, 398 00:18:55.819 --> 00:19:03.159 align:middle line:90% I was aware that because it was a dream, I had the power to, to do this. 399 00:19:03.846 --> 00:19:05.154 align:middle line:90% Yeah. Yeah. 400 00:19:05.617 --> 00:19:09.910 align:middle line:90% So, tell me why this real dream you had about finger nubbins 401 00:19:10.230 --> 00:19:11.520 align:middle line:90% made it into this book. 402 00:19:12.069 --> 00:19:14.539 align:middle line:90% Like, what made you select certain dreams for this? 403 00:19:14.726 --> 00:19:16.478 align:middle line:90% Really for funniness. 404 00:19:16.600 --> 00:19:19.790 align:middle line:90% Or, or there's a few in there that aren't funny, 405 00:19:19.800 --> 00:19:21.691 align:middle line:90% or things that got to me. 406 00:19:22.530 --> 00:19:28.513 align:middle line:90% And I think, in some ways, that's why I do anything at all. 407 00:19:28.513 --> 00:19:29.414 align:middle line:90% Like something… 408 00:19:29.414 --> 00:19:31.580 align:middle line:90% For me to write something up or draw it up, 409 00:19:32.263 --> 00:19:37.819 align:middle line:90% it has to reach me in some way, uh, seem either funny, or it's like… 410 00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:41.739 align:middle line:90% There's a couple of dreams that I don't think are terribly funny, 411 00:19:41.750 --> 00:19:45.239 align:middle line:90% but they just reached me, you know, they got to me, 412 00:19:45.239 --> 00:19:47.800 align:middle line:90% and I felt like I don't want to forget it, you know. 413 00:19:47.800 --> 00:19:51.348 align:middle line:90% So, sometimes for me, writing and drawing, I think, is a way of not forgetting. 414 00:19:51.588 --> 00:19:52.850 align:middle line:90% Mm. Mm-hmm. 415 00:19:52.954 --> 00:19:55.250 align:middle line:90% And when you say, "reach me," what, what, what is it? 416 00:19:55.260 --> 00:19:57.860 align:middle line:90% What is the imprint that it's leaving that you're trying to capture? 417 00:19:58.637 --> 00:20:02.939 align:middle line:90% Well, if it's reaching me in a funny way, it just seems funny, 418 00:20:02.949 --> 00:20:04.900 align:middle line:90% but there's other things that are just… 419 00:20:04.910 --> 00:20:09.940 align:middle line:90% I have a dream in here where my mother, who is deceased, 420 00:20:10.383 --> 00:20:12.971 align:middle line:90% and who I had a complicated relationship with, 421 00:20:13.260 --> 00:20:15.569 align:middle line:90% not particularly good… 422 00:20:16.009 --> 00:20:16.574 align:middle line:90% Mm-hmm. 423 00:20:16.574 --> 00:20:19.959 align:middle line:90% …she called me, and I knew that she was dead, 424 00:20:20.390 --> 00:20:25.340 align:middle line:90% and she was weeping on the other end of the phone, 425 00:20:25.340 --> 00:20:26.144 align:middle line:90% and it was so… 426 00:20:26.144 --> 00:20:28.281 align:middle line:90% It woke me up. It was upsetting. 427 00:20:28.281 --> 00:20:28.993 align:middle line:90% Mm. 428 00:20:28.993 --> 00:20:34.783 align:middle line:90% But I included it because it reached me, you know, it got to me. 429 00:20:34.783 --> 00:20:37.092 align:middle line:90% Like, I woke up and it was like, "Oh, my God." 430 00:20:37.268 --> 00:20:40.586 align:middle line:90% I can see that your parents show up in your dreams pretty frequently. 431 00:20:40.586 --> 00:20:42.228 align:middle line:90% Yeah, they do. They do. 432 00:20:42.228 --> 00:20:44.709 align:middle line:90% What do you think you're working out with them in your dreams? 433 00:20:44.900 --> 00:20:50.144 align:middle line:90% Oh, probably the stuff that, you know, we all are working out, 434 00:20:50.144 --> 00:20:51.640 align:middle line:90% trying to work out with our parents. 435 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:55.418 align:middle line:90% I mean, ways in which you hoped that, you know, 436 00:20:55.418 --> 00:20:59.000 align:middle line:90% your relationship with them had been better. 437 00:20:59.930 --> 00:21:02.396 align:middle line:90% And I have children of my own, you know, 438 00:21:02.396 --> 00:21:05.928 align:middle line:90% so I know how important my relationship is with them, 439 00:21:06.339 --> 00:21:14.150 align:middle line:90% and I wonder, you know, did it ever occur to them that, like, 440 00:21:14.939 --> 00:21:18.109 align:middle line:90% they would want to have a relationship with me as an adult? 441 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:21.789 align:middle line:90% Because certainly as, you know, when they were little, 442 00:21:22.099 --> 00:21:23.859 align:middle line:90% it wasn't on my mind all the time, 443 00:21:23.869 --> 00:21:27.300 align:middle line:90% but I did consider the fact that I didn't want to not have 444 00:21:27.310 --> 00:21:30.206 align:middle line:90% a relationship with them as an adult, you know? 445 00:21:30.673 --> 00:21:34.619 align:middle line:90% Um, it was like, you know, please don't let me blow it so bad that, 446 00:21:34.790 --> 00:21:38.000 align:middle line:90% you know, they don't want to be friends with me 447 00:21:38.010 --> 00:21:40.040 align:middle line:90% as-- when they're grownups, you know? 448 00:21:40.121 --> 00:21:42.800 align:middle line:90% Which is a different sort of thing to be so acutely aware of 449 00:21:42.810 --> 00:21:43.949 align:middle line:90% when your kids are young. 450 00:21:43.949 --> 00:21:44.560 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 451 00:21:44.560 --> 00:21:46.861 align:middle line:90% I'm raising a, I'm raising a someday adult. 452 00:21:46.861 --> 00:21:49.476 align:middle line:90% Yeah. How old is your… You have one? 453 00:21:49.476 --> 00:21:50.484 align:middle line:90% I don't have children yet… 454 00:21:50.484 --> 00:21:51.128 align:middle line:90% Oh. Oh. 455 00:21:51.128 --> 00:21:52.966 align:middle line:90% …but I am pregnant with my first. 456 00:21:52.966 --> 00:21:54.288 align:middle line:90% [GASPS] Ooh! 457 00:21:54.288 --> 00:21:54.788 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 458 00:21:54.788 --> 00:21:55.939 align:middle line:90% Exciting! 459 00:21:55.939 --> 00:21:57.225 align:middle line:90% It's very exciting. 460 00:21:57.225 --> 00:21:58.050 align:middle line:90% Yeah! 461 00:21:58.050 --> 00:21:59.566 align:middle line:90% Yeah. I'm really excited. 462 00:21:59.566 --> 00:22:02.476 align:middle line:90% That's really… Well, your life's gonna change. [LAUGHS] 463 00:22:02.476 --> 00:22:03.791 align:middle line:90% So I hear. 464 00:22:03.791 --> 00:22:04.441 align:middle line:90% Yeah! 465 00:22:04.441 --> 00:22:06.903 align:middle line:90% And I'm really, I'm like really thrilled for it. 466 00:22:06.903 --> 00:22:08.289 align:middle line:90% I can't tell you. [LAUGHS] 467 00:22:08.289 --> 00:22:09.899 align:middle line:90% Yeah. Yeah. 468 00:22:09.899 --> 00:22:12.323 align:middle line:90% Well, can I ask you to describe another one of your… 469 00:22:12.323 --> 00:22:12.970 align:middle line:90% Yeah, sure. 470 00:22:12.970 --> 00:22:15.157 align:middle line:90% …one of the pages in the book, one of the dreams? 471 00:22:15.157 --> 00:22:15.796 align:middle line:90% Yeah, yeah. 472 00:22:15.796 --> 00:22:17.529 align:middle line:90% Oh, it's so hard to choose one. 473 00:22:17.529 --> 00:22:19.416 align:middle line:90% I mean, I know which one I would choose next, 474 00:22:19.416 --> 00:22:21.970 align:middle line:90% but I would love to ask you to choose any one you would like to. 475 00:22:21.970 --> 00:22:26.843 align:middle line:90% Okay. I know which one. Um, I always, uh… 476 00:22:26.843 --> 00:22:28.483 align:middle line:90% Let me see if I can find it. 477 00:22:28.485 --> 00:22:31.116 align:middle line:90% Here it is! Here it is. It's page 58. Okay. 478 00:22:32.060 --> 00:22:37.000 align:middle line:90% Um, this dream I had, it was, um, to save humanity. 479 00:22:37.260 --> 00:22:39.729 align:middle line:90% "There was a water shortage on Earth, 480 00:22:39.927 --> 00:22:43.449 align:middle line:90% but I had a genetic defect where I made tons of saliva. 481 00:22:43.719 --> 00:22:47.307 align:middle line:90% I kept people alive by drooling into their mouths. 482 00:22:47.631 --> 00:22:51.920 align:middle line:90% Everyone was grossed out, but it was either take my drool or die." 483 00:22:52.626 --> 00:22:56.541 align:middle line:90% Um, and I have this drawing of this kid lying in a bed, 484 00:22:56.541 --> 00:22:57.687 align:middle line:90% and his mouth is open, 485 00:22:57.687 --> 00:23:00.020 align:middle line:90% and I'm just kind of, like, drooling into his mouth. 486 00:23:00.030 --> 00:23:04.819 align:middle line:90% It's a little bit gross, but you know, that's how, that's what happened. 487 00:23:04.829 --> 00:23:06.627 align:middle line:90% That's what the circumstances called for… 488 00:23:06.627 --> 00:23:07.870 align:middle line:90% Exactly! Exactly. 489 00:23:07.870 --> 00:23:09.599 align:middle line:90% …in that particular dream. [LAUGHS] 490 00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:13.678 align:middle line:90% Yes, yes. And I, I saved humanity, um, with my drool. 491 00:23:14.107 --> 00:23:19.389 align:middle line:90% Um, but, but this other dream, this was really sort of funny. 492 00:23:19.391 --> 00:23:22.342 align:middle line:90% Um, it was a very dreamlike whole circumstance. 493 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:25.941 align:middle line:90% I have a chapter in the book about celebrity dreams. 494 00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:30.390 align:middle line:90% And, um, so I had this dream about Danny DeVito. 495 00:23:30.719 --> 00:23:32.959 align:middle line:90% "I dreamed I was married to Danny DeVito. 496 00:23:33.189 --> 00:23:35.369 align:middle line:90% I like Danny DeVito, he's hilarious, 497 00:23:35.380 --> 00:23:37.619 align:middle line:90% but he's not someone I think about very often. 498 00:23:37.900 --> 00:23:40.349 align:middle line:90% In my dream, he lay with his head in my lap, 499 00:23:40.463 --> 00:23:42.709 align:middle line:90% gazing up at me with adoration." 500 00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:44.020 align:middle line:90% And that's the drawing. 501 00:23:44.030 --> 00:23:47.149 align:middle line:90% I'm sitting on this, like, wooden bench, and he's lying on my lap, 502 00:23:47.149 --> 00:23:47.890 align:middle line:90% and he's looking up, 503 00:23:47.890 --> 00:23:50.368 align:middle line:90% and all these hearts are coming out of his head, and it's… 504 00:23:50.501 --> 00:23:52.996 align:middle line:90% "I'm not in love with him, but it's nice to be adored, 505 00:23:52.996 --> 00:23:54.569 align:middle line:90% so maybe this will work out." 506 00:23:55.081 --> 00:23:55.581 align:middle line:90% So… 507 00:23:55.581 --> 00:23:56.081 align:middle line:90% [BASU LAUGHS] 508 00:23:56.373 --> 00:23:59.260 align:middle line:90% So, this was, I don't know, like a month ago or so. 509 00:23:59.514 --> 00:24:05.711 align:middle line:90% Um, I was, uh, going to an interview, and I think it was, uh, at "WNYC." 510 00:24:06.170 --> 00:24:10.939 align:middle line:90% And the person who was being interviewed before me was Danny DeVito. 511 00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:12.685 align:middle line:90% No way! 512 00:24:12.685 --> 00:24:17.849 align:middle line:90% Yes! And, uh, the people that he was with and the people that I was with, 513 00:24:17.849 --> 00:24:23.467 align:middle line:90% somehow he became aware of the fact, he was made aware, that he was in my book. 514 00:24:23.467 --> 00:24:27.547 align:middle line:90% And, um, of course, I knew who he was. I wasn't sure if he knew who I was. 515 00:24:27.547 --> 00:24:31.368 align:middle line:90% But, you know, then we had the book and showed him the dream, 516 00:24:31.368 --> 00:24:33.388 align:middle line:90% and he really liked it. 517 00:24:33.388 --> 00:24:35.145 align:middle line:90% And he gave me this big hug. 518 00:24:35.145 --> 00:24:38.061 align:middle line:90% He's like-- comes up to, like, my chin. He is quite short. 519 00:24:38.061 --> 00:24:43.521 align:middle line:90% And, and we hugged, and then he signed my book, um, 520 00:24:43.582 --> 00:24:46.353 align:middle line:90% "Oh, so nice. Love, Danny DeVito." 521 00:24:46.353 --> 00:24:46.853 align:middle line:90% [BASU LAUGHS] 522 00:24:46.853 --> 00:24:53.893 align:middle line:90% And it's, it was like, this is so dreamlike, this entire episode. 523 00:24:53.926 --> 00:24:54.706 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 524 00:24:55.282 --> 00:24:59.688 align:middle line:90% So, yeah, it was really sweet. It was really wonderful. So, yeah. 525 00:24:59.688 --> 00:25:02.522 align:middle line:90% What a weird and unexpected way for your dream 526 00:25:02.522 --> 00:25:05.752 align:middle line:90% to just reach out into the real world and shape something. 527 00:25:05.752 --> 00:25:08.244 align:middle line:90% Yes, absolutely! I love that. 528 00:25:08.276 --> 00:25:10.270 align:middle line:90% Roz, can I ask you about something… 529 00:25:10.692 --> 00:25:14.595 align:middle line:90% I mean, first of all, I chuckled at lots of things in this book. 530 00:25:14.595 --> 00:25:15.229 align:middle line:90% Oh, good. 531 00:25:15.229 --> 00:25:18.501 align:middle line:90% I feel like this book was such a nice, um… [CHUCKLES] 532 00:25:18.501 --> 00:25:20.940 align:middle line:90% such a nice insight into your brain, but I have to say, 533 00:25:20.940 --> 00:25:24.320 align:middle line:90% the other thing that really gave me a lot of insight into your brain recently 534 00:25:24.320 --> 00:25:28.311 align:middle line:90% was this "New York Times" home tour that you did. 535 00:25:28.311 --> 00:25:29.479 align:middle line:90% Oh. [LAUGHS] 536 00:25:29.479 --> 00:25:32.900 align:middle line:90% And I was so, um… I was floored by the headline, 537 00:25:32.900 --> 00:25:35.059 align:middle line:90% which maybe was okay because it was quoting you. 538 00:25:35.059 --> 00:25:38.487 align:middle line:90% The headline was, "Is Roz Chast Terrible at Decorating?" 539 00:25:38.487 --> 00:25:40.440 align:middle line:90% I am, I am. [LAUGHS] 540 00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:43.516 align:middle line:90% If you really do feel like you're terrible at decorating, why… 541 00:25:43.516 --> 00:25:47.168 align:middle line:90% what made you agree to open your doors for a home tour? 542 00:25:47.168 --> 00:25:52.036 align:middle line:90% Because I don't… I think decorating is different from… 543 00:25:52.548 --> 00:25:54.540 align:middle line:90% Decorating is something I don't know how to do, 544 00:25:54.550 --> 00:25:58.760 align:middle line:90% but I do know how to hang up things that-- and display things that I love. 545 00:25:58.930 --> 00:26:00.229 align:middle line:90% And you certainly have. 546 00:26:00.239 --> 00:26:02.984 align:middle line:90% That's something that you definitely take away from the photos of your home. 547 00:26:02.984 --> 00:26:04.479 align:middle line:90% Yeah, chock full of things. 548 00:26:04.479 --> 00:26:07.644 align:middle line:90% Yeah. Lots and lots and lots of things. 549 00:26:07.644 --> 00:26:12.258 align:middle line:90% And I, I love buying or trading art with people. 550 00:26:12.258 --> 00:26:13.444 align:middle line:90% A lot of cartoonists. 551 00:26:13.444 --> 00:26:16.877 align:middle line:90% I've gotten a lot of incredible cartoons, original cartoons, 552 00:26:16.877 --> 00:26:18.825 align:middle line:90% you know, trading with people. 553 00:26:18.825 --> 00:26:22.787 align:middle line:90% And I love to show those off to people. 554 00:26:22.787 --> 00:26:25.228 align:middle line:90% I just recently got a couple of, uh, 555 00:26:25.228 --> 00:26:28.217 align:middle line:90% original Helen Hokinson cartoons from somebody. 556 00:26:28.336 --> 00:26:32.469 align:middle line:90% I collect these scarves, the silk scarves 557 00:26:32.479 --> 00:26:35.194 align:middle line:90% that cartoonists, a lot of "New Yorker" cartoonists, 558 00:26:35.605 --> 00:26:39.589 align:middle line:90% did in the '40s and '50s, uh, like, like merch. 559 00:26:39.959 --> 00:26:44.069 align:middle line:90% And so, I don't know, decorating, when I think of decorating, 560 00:26:44.439 --> 00:26:49.270 align:middle line:90% I think of, um, like, rooms where, like, there's things sort of… 561 00:26:49.729 --> 00:26:54.109 align:middle line:90% I don't know, like a, a bowl with, like, those wicker balls in it. 562 00:26:54.109 --> 00:26:54.609 align:middle line:90% [BASU LAUGHS] 563 00:26:54.609 --> 00:26:57.239 align:middle line:90% So, you know, you know what I'm talking about? 564 00:26:57.239 --> 00:27:00.209 align:middle line:90% Some kind of benign, nonfunctional object. 565 00:27:00.209 --> 00:27:02.349 align:middle line:90% Yeah! Like a nonfunctional object. 566 00:27:02.349 --> 00:27:03.477 align:middle line:90% Yeah. Yeah. 567 00:27:03.477 --> 00:27:05.901 align:middle line:90% And I'm really bad at that. I'm really bad. 568 00:27:05.901 --> 00:27:09.421 align:middle line:90% Or, like, a coffee table that is, like, perfect. 569 00:27:09.421 --> 00:27:13.227 align:middle line:90% It has, like, no chips or nicks or, like, you know, from when your kids were little 570 00:27:13.227 --> 00:27:15.421 align:middle line:90% and, like, did something, like, really stupid. 571 00:27:15.421 --> 00:27:18.728 align:middle line:90% Um, you know, it's like this perfect piece of furniture, 572 00:27:18.728 --> 00:27:19.772 align:middle line:90% and the person can tell you, 573 00:27:19.772 --> 00:27:25.271 align:middle line:90% "Well, this is, like, you know, a Mies van der Rohe, and… [TRAILS OFF]" 574 00:27:25.271 --> 00:27:27.452 align:middle line:90% You know, and, um, great. It's great. It's like… 575 00:27:27.452 --> 00:27:30.003 align:middle line:90% But I don't have anything like that, but I do have… 576 00:27:30.003 --> 00:27:32.304 align:middle line:90% Yeah, your, your home tour was clearly not that. 577 00:27:32.304 --> 00:27:33.075 align:middle line:90% But it's-- 578 00:27:33.075 --> 00:27:33.653 align:middle line:90% No. 579 00:27:33.653 --> 00:27:36.529 align:middle line:90% …what's really clear, though, is that you surround yourself 580 00:27:36.529 --> 00:27:41.853 align:middle line:90% with visual reminders of things that you, like, just love and appreciate. 581 00:27:41.853 --> 00:27:45.824 align:middle line:90% Yes. Yes. And I, and that's why I was very happy to have somebody over. 582 00:27:45.824 --> 00:27:48.759 align:middle line:90% Because it's like, "Look at this Charles Addams scarf!" 583 00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:49.259 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 584 00:27:49.259 --> 00:27:50.930 align:middle line:90% "Can you believe this?" 585 00:27:50.930 --> 00:27:51.430 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 586 00:27:51.430 --> 00:27:54.683 align:middle line:90% It's just the greatest thing you've ever, you know, I've ever seen. 587 00:27:54.683 --> 00:27:55.183 align:middle line:90% [BASU CHUCKLES] 588 00:27:55.183 --> 00:27:57.351 align:middle line:90% Can I tell you the thing that caught my eye, that there were just… 589 00:27:57.351 --> 00:27:57.851 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 590 00:27:57.851 --> 00:27:59.451 align:middle line:90% …zero questions about and I need to know? 591 00:27:59.451 --> 00:28:00.028 align:middle line:90% Yeah. Yeah. 592 00:28:00.028 --> 00:28:01.841 align:middle line:90% In your dining area, you have… 593 00:28:01.841 --> 00:28:02.341 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 594 00:28:02.341 --> 00:28:08.007 align:middle line:90% …you have some shelves that are just full of cans of foods? 595 00:28:08.007 --> 00:28:11.589 align:middle line:90% They look like various food goods. Do you collect cans of foods? 596 00:28:11.589 --> 00:28:14.009 align:middle line:90% Well, okay, for a while, 597 00:28:14.009 --> 00:28:16.870 align:middle line:90% this was, you know, probably like 20 years ago, 598 00:28:16.870 --> 00:28:17.921 align:middle line:90% I had this sort of… 599 00:28:17.921 --> 00:28:22.668 align:middle line:90% I think it was partly to make grocery shopping not so boring. 600 00:28:22.800 --> 00:28:25.191 align:middle line:90% I would look for… And I have like… 601 00:28:25.191 --> 00:28:26.560 align:middle line:90% It was like a game, sort of. 602 00:28:26.569 --> 00:28:34.670 align:middle line:90% It was, um, a collection and a game, uh, and it was to look for labels of things 603 00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:37.930 align:middle line:90% where I just really loved the label. 604 00:28:37.939 --> 00:28:39.439 align:middle line:90% And most of them were like, 605 00:28:39.449 --> 00:28:42.829 align:middle line:90% maybe it was a company that, like, canned peas, 606 00:28:43.060 --> 00:28:46.633 align:middle line:90% but they hadn't changed the label like forever. 607 00:28:46.939 --> 00:28:48.310 align:middle line:90% And then I would take it home, 608 00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:50.332 align:middle line:90% and I would, like, dump out the peas or whatever. 609 00:28:50.430 --> 00:28:54.870 align:middle line:90% But the rule was that I couldn't, like, buy a vintage can 610 00:28:54.870 --> 00:28:57.228 align:middle line:90% at, like, a collectible store, antique store. 611 00:28:57.228 --> 00:28:57.745 align:middle line:90% That would… 612 00:28:57.772 --> 00:28:58.948 align:middle line:90% That was like cheating. Right. 613 00:28:58.961 --> 00:29:00.460 align:middle line:90% That was totally cheating. 614 00:29:00.460 --> 00:29:00.960 align:middle line:90% Uh-huh. 615 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:04.619 align:middle line:90% But then, you know, about 15 years ago, 616 00:29:04.719 --> 00:29:07.228 align:middle line:90% the "Times" did come and they photographed the cans, 617 00:29:07.228 --> 00:29:08.987 align:middle line:90% and then I got some cans from people, 618 00:29:09.130 --> 00:29:12.614 align:middle line:90% and some of them were so cool that I thought, 619 00:29:12.614 --> 00:29:17.373 align:middle line:90% "Well, I can't throw this can out. It's like, it just sort of says, "Cress," 620 00:29:17.491 --> 00:29:20.900 align:middle line:90% and then there's this great painting of, like, some kind of cress on it. 621 00:29:20.910 --> 00:29:22.380 align:middle line:90% And I, you know… 622 00:29:22.558 --> 00:29:26.305 align:middle line:90% Or canned peaches, and then there's, like, a football player, 623 00:29:26.305 --> 00:29:29.045 align:middle line:90% like a painting of a football player with, like, a canned peach. 624 00:29:29.045 --> 00:29:31.640 align:middle line:90% And how can I throw that out? That's, like, too great. 625 00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:32.140 align:middle line:90% [BASU LAUGHS] 626 00:29:32.140 --> 00:29:36.721 align:middle line:90% So, there's a couple of, like, exceptions, but then there were things… 627 00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:39.599 align:middle line:90% I know. I feel like I'm blathering, but I'm so excited. 628 00:29:39.689 --> 00:29:43.290 align:middle line:90% So, I have these cans. That was… But not-- There's not that… 629 00:29:43.300 --> 00:29:47.600 align:middle line:90% I mean, maybe I have like 30? [LAUGHS] I guess that's a lot. 630 00:29:47.600 --> 00:29:48.100 align:middle line:90% [BASU AND CHAST LAUGH] 631 00:29:48.736 --> 00:29:49.394 align:middle line:90% I was going to say… 632 00:29:49.394 --> 00:29:50.573 align:middle line:90% It sounds, it sounds like a lot. 633 00:29:50.573 --> 00:29:54.224 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I was going to say, "not so many," but maybe there's 30, maybe there's 25. 634 00:29:54.224 --> 00:29:56.352 align:middle line:90% I don't know. [LAUGHS] 635 00:29:56.352 --> 00:29:57.399 align:middle line:90% It almost sounds like… 636 00:29:57.399 --> 00:30:01.654 align:middle line:90% I mean, there's enough absurd things that happen in waking life… 637 00:30:01.654 --> 00:30:02.501 align:middle line:90% Yes! 638 00:30:02.575 --> 00:30:05.880 align:middle line:90% …that, um, you don't have to work that hard 639 00:30:05.890 --> 00:30:08.902 align:middle line:90% to manufacture very strange dream scenarios. 640 00:30:08.902 --> 00:30:10.919 align:middle line:90% No, not at all. Not at all. 641 00:30:10.919 --> 00:30:13.628 align:middle line:90% And it does make grocery shopping more fun, 642 00:30:13.628 --> 00:30:16.848 align:middle line:90% you know, if you're, like, looking for something like this. 643 00:30:16.848 --> 00:30:18.621 align:middle line:90% I'm sure. I'm sure. 644 00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:21.849 align:middle line:90% This was so enjoyable. I really enjoyed speaking with you. 645 00:30:21.949 --> 00:30:27.410 align:middle line:90% Well, you too, and I'm very excited about your next phase of life. 646 00:30:27.430 --> 00:30:30.430 align:middle line:90% Oh, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. 647 00:30:30.430 --> 00:30:31.526 align:middle line:90% Yes. Yes. 648 00:30:31.526 --> 00:30:32.026 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES IN] 649 00:30:35.350 --> 00:30:38.839 align:middle line:90% Roz Chast's book, "I Must Be Dreaming," is out now. 650 00:30:39.050 --> 00:30:41.109 align:middle line:90% And if you'd like to see some of her cartoons, 651 00:30:41.183 --> 00:30:42.729 align:middle line:90% check out our show notes page. 652 00:30:43.448 --> 00:30:45.660 align:middle line:90% This is my last episode of "In Conversation" 653 00:30:45.670 --> 00:30:48.532 align:middle line:90% for the next few months, while I'm on maternity leave. 654 00:30:48.854 --> 00:30:50.548 align:middle line:90% Next week, David Greene, 655 00:30:50.628 --> 00:30:52.599 align:middle line:90% a former host of "NPR's" "Morning Edition," 656 00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:54.683 align:middle line:90% will be taking over the host chair, 657 00:30:54.806 --> 00:30:57.336 align:middle line:90% with more guest hosts to come later this year. 658 00:30:57.642 --> 00:31:00.737 align:middle line:90% I'm so excited to listen along with you. 659 00:31:01.067 --> 00:31:02.244 align:middle line:90% I'll be back again soon. 660 00:31:05.092 --> 00:31:05.592 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT]