WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.582 --> 00:00:01.082 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES IN] 2 00:00:04.643 --> 00:00:06.905 align:middle line:90% This is "In Conversation" from Apple News. 3 00:00:06.905 --> 00:00:09.283 align:middle line:90% I'm David Greene, filling in for Shumita Basu. 4 00:00:09.643 --> 00:00:12.706 align:middle line:90% Today, the big business of college sports. 5 00:00:15.789 --> 00:00:16.289 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 6 00:00:20.012 --> 00:00:22.281 align:middle line:90% For the next few weeks, I'm going to be filling in for Shumita 7 00:00:22.281 --> 00:00:24.077 align:middle line:90% while she is out on maternity leave. 8 00:00:24.077 --> 00:00:27.180 align:middle line:90% You might recognize me, or at least my voice, 9 00:00:27.180 --> 00:00:29.675 align:middle line:90% from "NPR's" "Morning Edition," if you listened. 10 00:00:29.675 --> 00:00:31.545 align:middle line:90% I was a co-host there for many years. 11 00:00:31.893 --> 00:00:35.819 align:middle line:90% Since leaving "NPR" in 2020, I've been working on, well, 12 00:00:35.819 --> 00:00:37.123 align:middle line:90% a whole bunch of different projects. 13 00:00:37.123 --> 00:00:39.518 align:middle line:90% And one thing that I've been digging into recently 14 00:00:39.866 --> 00:00:40.691 align:middle line:90% is sports. 15 00:00:40.691 --> 00:00:44.212 align:middle line:90% I've always been a diehard sports fan, but more and more, 16 00:00:44.404 --> 00:00:48.016 align:middle line:90% I've been exploring sports through a more journalistic lens, 17 00:00:48.016 --> 00:00:51.838 align:middle line:90% talking to professional athletes, analysts, industry experts. 18 00:00:52.274 --> 00:00:54.600 align:middle line:90% So, that's gonna be my focus for the next few weeks. 19 00:00:54.673 --> 00:00:56.357 align:middle line:90% And for this episode, 20 00:00:56.581 --> 00:00:58.741 align:middle line:90% we're talking about money and college sports. 21 00:00:58.741 --> 00:00:59.241 align:middle line:90% [MELLOW MUSIC] 22 00:01:02.839 --> 00:01:04.681 align:middle line:90% For more than a century, 23 00:01:04.745 --> 00:01:08.789 align:middle line:90% amateurism has been a cornerstone of college sports, 24 00:01:09.133 --> 00:01:12.939 align:middle line:90% meaning student athletes were, well, considered just that, amateurs. 25 00:01:13.191 --> 00:01:17.236 align:middle line:90% They played for the love of the game, for pride in their school. 26 00:01:17.320 --> 00:01:21.338 align:middle line:90% And according to NCAA rules, they could not be paid to play. 27 00:01:21.666 --> 00:01:23.384 align:middle line:90% But over the years, collegiate sports, 28 00:01:23.384 --> 00:01:26.095 align:middle line:90% specifically men's basketball and football, 29 00:01:26.311 --> 00:01:28.360 align:middle line:90% have become massive moneymakers, 30 00:01:28.360 --> 00:01:32.046 align:middle line:90% massive revenue generators for many colleges and universities. 31 00:01:32.434 --> 00:01:35.152 align:middle line:90% We're talking about billions and billions of dollars. 32 00:01:36.266 --> 00:01:39.747 align:middle line:90% They've made so much money recently that in the past year, 33 00:01:40.044 --> 00:01:43.947 align:middle line:90% they've been able to pay their head football coaches, 34 00:01:44.107 --> 00:01:48.402 align:middle line:90% on average, $6.2 million a year. 35 00:01:49.534 --> 00:01:51.287 align:middle line:90% That is Kevin Blackistone. 36 00:01:51.287 --> 00:01:53.860 align:middle line:90% He's a frequent panelist on "ESPN," 37 00:01:53.860 --> 00:01:55.844 align:middle line:90% also a columnist for "The Washington Post." 38 00:01:56.233 --> 00:01:59.342 align:middle line:90% So, where do the rest of those billions and billions of dollars go? 39 00:01:59.410 --> 00:02:00.752 align:middle line:90% The athletic directors, 40 00:02:00.816 --> 00:02:03.788 align:middle line:90% who often have multimillion-dollar salaries. 41 00:02:04.148 --> 00:02:05.855 align:middle line:90% They go to the conference commissioners, 42 00:02:06.055 --> 00:02:09.570 align:middle line:90% who also make multimillion-dollar salaries. 43 00:02:09.666 --> 00:02:12.171 align:middle line:90% They go to pay for these athletic departments. 44 00:02:12.451 --> 00:02:15.297 align:middle line:90% It is not unusual for these coaches, athletic directors, 45 00:02:15.481 --> 00:02:16.911 align:middle line:90% and conference commissioners 46 00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:23.205 align:middle line:90% to have access to things like private jets or maybe even a private helicopter 47 00:02:23.469 --> 00:02:25.359 align:middle line:90% to get them to fly out to see 48 00:02:25.359 --> 00:02:28.535 align:middle line:90% the latest high school football recruit that they want to see. 49 00:02:29.486 --> 00:02:32.076 align:middle line:90% In addition to being a longtime sports commentator, 50 00:02:32.140 --> 00:02:36.079 align:middle line:90% Kevin is a journalism professor at the University of Maryland, 51 00:02:36.423 --> 00:02:38.962 align:middle line:90% which happens to be a Division I football school. 52 00:02:39.215 --> 00:02:42.968 align:middle line:90% He told me he can see the brand-new training facility 53 00:02:42.968 --> 00:02:45.409 align:middle line:90% built for the football team from his office. 54 00:02:45.409 --> 00:02:49.099 align:middle line:90% And I asked him if those new facilities were a little nicer than his office. 55 00:02:49.299 --> 00:02:51.272 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] You know what? 56 00:02:51.272 --> 00:02:55.840 align:middle line:90% I would not hesitate to say that the football practice facility 57 00:02:55.840 --> 00:03:00.099 align:middle line:90% with offices and everything could be the nicest on campus right now. 58 00:03:00.820 --> 00:03:02.321 align:middle line:90% So, what about the athletes? 59 00:03:02.321 --> 00:03:03.922 align:middle line:90% Where is their cut in all of this? 60 00:03:04.283 --> 00:03:08.500 align:middle line:90% Facing backlash a few years ago, the NCAA instituted a policy 61 00:03:08.812 --> 00:03:12.550 align:middle line:90% that allows athletes to make money off of their brands. 62 00:03:12.626 --> 00:03:14.817 align:middle line:90% But that's totally separate from the money 63 00:03:14.985 --> 00:03:17.130 align:middle line:90% that's being generated by these institutions. 64 00:03:17.522 --> 00:03:21.480 align:middle line:90% So, now, the NCAA is under pressure again, 65 00:03:21.480 --> 00:03:26.275 align:middle line:90% facing a slew of lawsuits over compensation for these athletes. 66 00:03:26.543 --> 00:03:31.345 align:middle line:90% The NCAA argues that paying players would fundamentally change 67 00:03:31.345 --> 00:03:33.558 align:middle line:90% the whole nature of amateur sports. 68 00:03:33.987 --> 00:03:37.798 align:middle line:90% Kevin told me a hugely important factor in all of this is race. 69 00:03:39.816 --> 00:03:40.316 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 70 00:03:41.386 --> 00:03:43.321 align:middle line:90% One of the reasons I got into journalism 71 00:03:43.385 --> 00:03:48.116 align:middle line:90% was to study and write about and report about social issues. 72 00:03:48.492 --> 00:03:50.484 align:middle line:90% I wanted to bring that lens to sports as well, 73 00:03:50.484 --> 00:03:52.413 align:middle line:90% because not a lot of people were doing it. 74 00:03:52.746 --> 00:03:53.370 align:middle line:90% Mm. 75 00:03:53.370 --> 00:03:56.286 align:middle line:90% And we have to understand what it is that we're, we're watching. 76 00:03:56.414 --> 00:04:00.976 align:middle line:90% And I think people are uncomfortable acknowledging 77 00:04:01.288 --> 00:04:04.901 align:middle line:90% the critique of college sports as a plantation economy. 78 00:04:04.907 --> 00:04:05.499 align:middle line:90% Mm. 79 00:04:05.508 --> 00:04:08.592 align:middle line:90% And the reason I bring up the plantation economy 80 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:16.724 align:middle line:90% is because the laborers in college sports who generate the bulk of the revenue 81 00:04:16.796 --> 00:04:20.946 align:middle line:90% are Black males who play college football and college basketball. 82 00:04:21.318 --> 00:04:25.985 align:middle line:90% Those are the two sports that are behind the billion-dollar industry 83 00:04:26.409 --> 00:04:28.084 align:middle line:90% that college sports have become. 84 00:04:28.431 --> 00:04:31.200 align:middle line:90% And as a friend of mine always says, 85 00:04:31.200 --> 00:04:33.820 align:middle line:90% there are two types of sports in college athletics. 86 00:04:34.228 --> 00:04:37.161 align:middle line:90% There are revenue-generating sports, football and basketball, 87 00:04:37.425 --> 00:04:41.708 align:middle line:90% and there are expenditure sports, which are basically every other sport. 88 00:04:41.980 --> 00:04:44.059 align:middle line:90% Maybe not women's college basketball. 89 00:04:44.535 --> 00:04:52.260 align:middle line:90% It is from the largesse of the labor of Black males in football and basketball 90 00:04:52.260 --> 00:04:54.029 align:middle line:90% that allow those sports to live. 91 00:04:54.036 --> 00:04:54.636 align:middle line:90% Mm. 92 00:04:54.882 --> 00:04:57.599 align:middle line:90% And so, if you step back and think about it, 93 00:04:57.663 --> 00:05:02.896 align:middle line:90% these Black males are out in the field of football and basketball 94 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:04.648 align:middle line:90% generating all these revenues 95 00:05:05.216 --> 00:05:09.156 align:middle line:90% for the house on the hill to be able to prosper 96 00:05:09.156 --> 00:05:11.569 align:middle line:90% doing all the other things that happen there. 97 00:05:12.053 --> 00:05:16.520 align:middle line:90% None of which are things that those Black male laborers participate in. 98 00:05:16.896 --> 00:05:19.996 align:middle line:90% That is the critique, the plantation economy critique, 99 00:05:19.996 --> 00:05:22.596 align:middle line:90% that you can apply to college sports today. 100 00:05:23.080 --> 00:05:23.708 align:middle line:90% Wow. 101 00:05:24.149 --> 00:05:26.118 align:middle line:90% That's, that is, that's heavy. 102 00:05:26.894 --> 00:05:28.300 align:middle line:90% I mean, just listening to you describe that, 103 00:05:28.300 --> 00:05:29.293 align:middle line:90% it makes me feel like, you know, 104 00:05:29.293 --> 00:05:34.079 align:middle line:90% we talk so much about racial justice in our country. 105 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:39.823 align:middle line:90% It sounds like this is one massive, unacknowledged facet of that 106 00:05:39.823 --> 00:05:42.753 align:middle line:90% that we're just beginning to acknowledge now. 107 00:05:42.978 --> 00:05:43.779 align:middle line:90% Absolutely. 108 00:05:43.779 --> 00:05:45.733 align:middle line:90% This is a Black male issue. 109 00:05:45.733 --> 00:05:48.023 align:middle line:90% This is a racial justice issue. 110 00:05:48.092 --> 00:05:50.546 align:middle line:90% It's an economic justice issue. 111 00:05:50.935 --> 00:05:51.832 align:middle line:90% It's all of that. 112 00:05:52.073 --> 00:05:53.554 align:middle line:90% Um, a number of years ago, 113 00:05:54.258 --> 00:05:57.219 align:middle line:90% 10 years ago or so, maybe a little bit more, 114 00:05:57.451 --> 00:05:58.492 align:middle line:90% Shaun Harper, 115 00:05:58.772 --> 00:06:02.360 align:middle line:90% who at the time was a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, 116 00:06:02.872 --> 00:06:05.412 align:middle line:90% a Black professor, and he's now at USC, 117 00:06:05.740 --> 00:06:10.629 align:middle line:90% was studying the experience of Black male athletes 118 00:06:10.821 --> 00:06:15.212 align:middle line:90% at predominantly white institutions, particularly the Power Five schools. 119 00:06:15.565 --> 00:06:21.633 align:middle line:90% And there was one thing that he mentioned in his research that just stung me. 120 00:06:21.853 --> 00:06:25.269 align:middle line:90% And that was the fact that, and this is still true today, 121 00:06:26.141 --> 00:06:32.743 align:middle line:90% no more than 3% of undergraduate enrollees are Black males. 122 00:06:33.641 --> 00:06:41.904 align:middle line:90% But upwards of 50 and 60% of the rosters of football teams and basketball teams 123 00:06:42.280 --> 00:06:44.972 align:middle line:90% at those same schools are Black males. 124 00:06:45.293 --> 00:06:46.025 align:middle line:90% Wow. 125 00:06:46.381 --> 00:06:48.316 align:middle line:90% Black males represent a tiny percentage 126 00:06:48.316 --> 00:06:50.701 align:middle line:90% of the people who are coming to these schools, 127 00:06:50.829 --> 00:06:54.917 align:middle line:90% but they represent a majority of, of the players on the field 128 00:06:54.917 --> 00:06:55.900 align:middle line:90% in those big sports. 129 00:06:56.082 --> 00:07:00.196 align:middle line:90% Exactly. Which to me means that, for the most part, 130 00:07:00.196 --> 00:07:02.259 align:middle line:90% they wind up on college campuses 131 00:07:02.547 --> 00:07:08.548 align:middle line:90% not to be part of the class of students who are there to be educated, 132 00:07:09.100 --> 00:07:14.684 align:middle line:90% but are really just part of this college athletic industrial complex 133 00:07:15.316 --> 00:07:20.480 align:middle line:90% that needs to generate massive amounts of revenue in entertaining us with sport. 134 00:07:21.405 --> 00:07:24.066 align:middle line:90% Well, I want to be really, really specific. 135 00:07:24.066 --> 00:07:28.665 align:middle line:90% I mean, you talk about college football, you talk about college basketball, 136 00:07:28.665 --> 00:07:31.212 align:middle line:90% how those are the big revenue generators. 137 00:07:31.212 --> 00:07:34.337 align:middle line:90% Um, those are separate things, right? 138 00:07:34.337 --> 00:07:40.011 align:middle line:90% I mean, the idea of a student athlete in some sports, on some college campuses, 139 00:07:40.395 --> 00:07:42.452 align:middle line:90% I mean, that, that still exists, right? 140 00:07:42.452 --> 00:07:43.100 align:middle line:90% Sure. 141 00:07:43.100 --> 00:07:46.653 align:middle line:90% We're talking predominantly about these big time sports… 142 00:07:46.653 --> 00:07:47.357 align:middle line:90% Right. 143 00:07:47.357 --> 00:07:50.258 align:middle line:90% …these big revenue generators at bigger schools. 144 00:07:50.258 --> 00:07:50.834 align:middle line:90% Right. 145 00:07:50.834 --> 00:07:55.321 align:middle line:90% We can still mythologize sports on smaller campuses, 146 00:07:55.321 --> 00:07:58.589 align:middle line:90% but the cameras don't go there [LAUGHS] for the most part. 147 00:07:58.589 --> 00:08:02.944 align:middle line:90% I mean, "ESPN" has expanded its net for content, 148 00:08:03.140 --> 00:08:06.824 align:middle line:90% and now they are showing far more competitions 149 00:08:06.824 --> 00:08:11.178 align:middle line:90% between smaller schools and high schools, I should add, 150 00:08:11.306 --> 00:08:12.643 align:middle line:90% thank you, LeBron James… 151 00:08:12.643 --> 00:08:13.143 align:middle line:90% [GREENE CHUCKLES] 152 00:08:13.315 --> 00:08:14.703 align:middle line:90% …than ever before. 153 00:08:14.927 --> 00:08:17.215 align:middle line:90% But for the most part, the balance between 154 00:08:17.583 --> 00:08:20.715 align:middle line:90% the mission of the university and athletics 155 00:08:20.947 --> 00:08:22.388 align:middle line:90% is considerably different. 156 00:08:23.404 --> 00:08:25.597 align:middle line:90% Well, I mean, can you just lay out… 157 00:08:25.709 --> 00:08:27.687 align:middle line:90% You know, you, you're at the University of Maryland. 158 00:08:27.687 --> 00:08:28.239 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 159 00:08:28.239 --> 00:08:32.769 align:middle line:90% You're at a Division I basketball and football school. 160 00:08:32.769 --> 00:08:33.269 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 161 00:08:33.269 --> 00:08:39.937 align:middle line:90% I mean, how much of a job is it really to be an athlete versus a college student? 162 00:08:39.937 --> 00:08:40.613 align:middle line:90% Sure. 163 00:08:40.687 --> 00:08:44.200 align:middle line:90% Well, a number of years ago, we were putting on a symposium 164 00:08:44.352 --> 00:08:48.211 align:middle line:90% here at the Shirley Povich Center for Sports Journalism, 165 00:08:48.211 --> 00:08:50.221 align:middle line:90% where we were talking about just that. 166 00:08:50.302 --> 00:08:53.610 align:middle line:90% What is it really like to be a college athlete at this level? 167 00:08:53.610 --> 00:08:54.202 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 168 00:08:54.202 --> 00:08:58.375 align:middle line:90% And we had a panel discussion with some coaches and players. 169 00:08:58.912 --> 00:09:01.509 align:middle line:90% And I'll never forget, we went to a Q&A with the audience, 170 00:09:01.573 --> 00:09:04.961 align:middle line:90% and one of the football players was a lineman. 171 00:09:05.236 --> 00:09:07.681 align:middle line:90% And a young woman stood up in the audience, 172 00:09:08.057 --> 00:09:11.414 align:middle line:90% and she told the player that she resented him. 173 00:09:12.011 --> 00:09:16.415 align:middle line:90% And she said, "I resent you because I have to work three jobs 174 00:09:16.671 --> 00:09:19.917 align:middle line:90% in order to pay my way through the University of Maryland. 175 00:09:20.354 --> 00:09:23.475 align:middle line:90% And you play football, and you get all of these benefits." 176 00:09:23.475 --> 00:09:24.075 align:middle line:90% Mm. 177 00:09:24.511 --> 00:09:29.057 align:middle line:90% And the football player responded to her by telling her, he said, 178 00:09:29.057 --> 00:09:34.167 align:middle line:90% "Well, I understand your point of view, but I just want you to know 179 00:09:34.167 --> 00:09:38.889 align:middle line:90% that I've been on a gurney four times for playing football." 180 00:09:38.889 --> 00:09:39.505 align:middle line:90% Wow. 181 00:09:39.785 --> 00:09:43.207 align:middle line:90% For having to go in and get some sort of operation. 182 00:09:43.949 --> 00:09:45.136 align:middle line:90% And he said, 183 00:09:45.136 --> 00:09:51.189 align:middle line:90% "Those surgeries and that rehab has cost me time in the classroom. 184 00:09:51.341 --> 00:09:56.605 align:middle line:90% And should my dream of becoming an NFL player not work out, 185 00:09:56.605 --> 00:09:58.988 align:middle line:90% I need to lean back on the education 186 00:09:58.988 --> 00:10:02.408 align:middle line:90% that I'm supposedly getting here at the University of Maryland." 187 00:10:03.020 --> 00:10:05.864 align:middle line:90% He said, "So, you may have to sacrifice time 188 00:10:05.864 --> 00:10:10.077 align:middle line:90% or you may have to figure out a way to piece together enough money 189 00:10:10.413 --> 00:10:13.563 align:middle line:90% to continue your education here at the University of Maryland." 190 00:10:14.144 --> 00:10:16.650 align:middle line:90% He said, "But I'm giving my body. 191 00:10:16.751 --> 00:10:19.237 align:middle line:90% I have to persevere in a different sort of way." 192 00:10:19.254 --> 00:10:19.754 align:middle line:90% [MELANCHOLY MUSIC] 193 00:10:22.239 --> 00:10:26.636 align:middle line:90% It is stories like this one that make Kevin and others say 194 00:10:26.636 --> 00:10:29.501 align:middle line:90% that these athletes need to be paid. 195 00:10:29.897 --> 00:10:32.767 align:middle line:90% I mean, keep in mind, the vast majority of college athletes 196 00:10:32.999 --> 00:10:35.375 align:middle line:90% are not going to make it to the NFL or the NBA. 197 00:10:35.443 --> 00:10:36.853 align:middle line:90% According to the NCAA, 198 00:10:36.853 --> 00:10:41.109 align:middle line:90% less than 2% of college basketball and football players are going to go pro. 199 00:10:41.941 --> 00:10:44.164 align:middle line:90% For this period of time that they're in college, 200 00:10:44.372 --> 00:10:49.520 align:middle line:90% this is an opportunity for them to start earning money. 201 00:10:50.197 --> 00:10:53.704 align:middle line:90% You know, if we believe that education, particularly college education, 202 00:10:53.704 --> 00:10:59.209 align:middle line:90% gives you that much greater chance to step up one rung 203 00:10:59.321 --> 00:11:02.272 align:middle line:90% when it comes to social and economic mobility, 204 00:11:02.816 --> 00:11:05.716 align:middle line:90% then if we grant these athletes 205 00:11:05.804 --> 00:11:10.680 align:middle line:90% that extra four or five years head start on stepping up, 206 00:11:10.680 --> 00:11:11.808 align:middle line:90% I think that's a good thing. 207 00:11:12.196 --> 00:11:15.525 align:middle line:90% And the NCAA seems to be getting the message. 208 00:11:15.617 --> 00:11:18.271 align:middle line:90% In 2021, under huge pressure, 209 00:11:18.479 --> 00:11:21.051 align:middle line:90% they decided to allow players to earn money 210 00:11:21.051 --> 00:11:24.137 align:middle line:90% through what is known as name, image and likeness. 211 00:11:24.137 --> 00:11:25.613 align:middle line:90% A lot of people call this NIL. 212 00:11:25.845 --> 00:11:29.511 align:middle line:90% It gives players the opportunities to make money off their brands. 213 00:11:29.511 --> 00:11:32.936 align:middle line:90% And for some student athletes, NIL has been great. 214 00:11:33.033 --> 00:11:37.080 align:middle line:90% LSU's women's basketball champion Angel Reese's NIL earnings 215 00:11:37.456 --> 00:11:40.355 align:middle line:90% are estimated to be around $1.7 million. 216 00:11:40.448 --> 00:11:46.980 align:middle line:90% Angel Reese copyrighted her nickname, Bayou Barbie, and is cashing in on that. 217 00:11:47.686 --> 00:11:50.595 align:middle line:90% Shedeur Sanders, a quarterback at the University of Colorado, 218 00:11:50.595 --> 00:11:52.764 align:middle line:90% has deals with tons of companies, 219 00:11:52.764 --> 00:11:58.400 align:middle line:90% including Beats by Dre, Nike, Mercedes-Benz, Gatorade, Smoothie King. 220 00:11:58.524 --> 00:11:59.024 align:middle line:90% [START SMOOTHIE KING COMMERCIAL ARCHIVAL CLIP] 221 00:11:59.024 --> 00:12:00.369 align:middle line:90% It's Shedeur Sanders. 222 00:12:00.369 --> 00:12:03.292 align:middle line:90% I'm partnering with Smoothie King to get you my favorite smoothie, 223 00:12:03.292 --> 00:12:04.261 align:middle line:90% the Shedeur. 224 00:12:04.461 --> 00:12:04.961 align:middle line:90% [END SMOOTHIE KING COMMERCIAL ARCHIVAL CLIP] 225 00:12:04.961 --> 00:12:10.239 align:middle line:90% Sanders is making an estimated $4.7 million from his NIL deals, 226 00:12:10.239 --> 00:12:14.712 align:middle line:90% but only a handful of extremely elite and popular athletes 227 00:12:14.712 --> 00:12:16.007 align:middle line:90% are making that kind of money. 228 00:12:16.063 --> 00:12:18.501 align:middle line:90% Most NIL deals aren't that lucrative. 229 00:12:18.501 --> 00:12:21.275 align:middle line:90% Plus, Kevin says another problem with the system is that 230 00:12:21.275 --> 00:12:23.116 align:middle line:90% it is not at all well-regulated. 231 00:12:23.180 --> 00:12:26.089 align:middle line:90% These are really state rules, and there are a bunch of states 232 00:12:26.089 --> 00:12:30.758 align:middle line:90% that don't have any rules for NIL to govern it. 233 00:12:31.030 --> 00:12:33.179 align:middle line:90% And where there are no state rules, 234 00:12:33.347 --> 00:12:36.724 align:middle line:90% it's been left up to individual colleges and universities 235 00:12:37.156 --> 00:12:38.748 align:middle line:90% to come up with their own rules. 236 00:12:38.989 --> 00:12:40.758 align:middle line:90% So, as you can see, it's a patchwork. 237 00:12:41.293 --> 00:12:46.156 align:middle line:90% Another issue that's come up under NIL are what's known as "collectives." 238 00:12:46.220 --> 00:12:49.653 align:middle line:90% Collectives are groups that technically operate 239 00:12:49.837 --> 00:12:52.044 align:middle line:90% independent from the schools they're supporting. 240 00:12:52.165 --> 00:12:56.155 align:middle line:90% Roughly 200 of them exist today, and the way they work… 241 00:12:56.439 --> 00:13:00.128 align:middle line:90% they collect donations from supporters of a college team, 242 00:13:00.128 --> 00:13:04.790 align:middle line:90% and then they funnel that money to college athletes using NIL deals. 243 00:13:05.071 --> 00:13:08.425 align:middle line:90% Kevin says there are a lot of problems with these collectives. 244 00:13:08.425 --> 00:13:11.680 align:middle line:90% For one thing, they're unregulated and have little transparency. 245 00:13:11.964 --> 00:13:14.800 align:middle line:90% Already, there's at least one example of a student signing 246 00:13:14.800 --> 00:13:19.283 align:middle line:90% a multi-million dollar NIL deal with a collective that just fell through. 247 00:13:19.771 --> 00:13:24.147 align:middle line:90% At its core, though, Kevin argues that the problem with NIL 248 00:13:24.147 --> 00:13:27.728 align:middle line:90% is that this system operates totally separately 249 00:13:27.864 --> 00:13:30.015 align:middle line:90% from those tens of billions of dollars 250 00:13:30.015 --> 00:13:31.851 align:middle line:90% that are being brought in by the institutions. 251 00:13:32.444 --> 00:13:34.988 align:middle line:90% When we talk about name, image and likeness, 252 00:13:35.132 --> 00:13:38.002 align:middle line:90% this is not about revenue sharing. 253 00:13:38.070 --> 00:13:41.551 align:middle line:90% This is not about the redistribution of wealth. 254 00:13:41.952 --> 00:13:44.316 align:middle line:90% This is not about health care. 255 00:13:44.741 --> 00:13:47.166 align:middle line:90% It's not about workers' compensation. 256 00:13:47.426 --> 00:13:49.679 align:middle line:90% It recognizes none of that. 257 00:13:50.295 --> 00:13:51.673 align:middle line:90% So, I asked Kevin, 258 00:13:51.673 --> 00:13:56.093 align:middle line:90% if he could reimagine this system, how would he do it? 259 00:13:56.281 --> 00:13:58.706 align:middle line:90% What would be a better version of what we have now? 260 00:13:58.706 --> 00:13:59.206 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 261 00:13:59.811 --> 00:14:02.437 align:middle line:90% My remedy for years has been to acknowledge 262 00:14:02.437 --> 00:14:05.241 align:middle line:90% that college football and college basketball, 263 00:14:05.241 --> 00:14:09.232 align:middle line:90% to a large extent, are businesses, and they're big business, 264 00:14:09.520 --> 00:14:12.987 align:middle line:90% and that they don't necessarily have a real place on the college campus. 265 00:14:13.259 --> 00:14:16.147 align:middle line:90% And I would like to see, and I think we're getting there, 266 00:14:16.283 --> 00:14:21.200 align:middle line:90% that the athletic departments for the biggest schools that we have, 267 00:14:21.448 --> 00:14:22.704 align:middle line:90% that bring in all this money, 268 00:14:22.704 --> 00:14:25.408 align:middle line:90% that pay out these million-dollar salaries, 269 00:14:26.032 --> 00:14:27.075 align:middle line:90% should incorporate. 270 00:14:27.517 --> 00:14:31.403 align:middle line:90% And that they should pay right fees back to the universities 271 00:14:31.403 --> 00:14:35.381 align:middle line:90% at which they are already associated to use those facilities, 272 00:14:35.853 --> 00:14:39.632 align:middle line:90% to wear the colors of those schools and the names of those schools 273 00:14:39.824 --> 00:14:47.355 align:middle line:90% and cut their own television deals just like the NFL or the NBA or the WNBA, 274 00:14:47.731 --> 00:14:50.647 align:middle line:90% and treat their laborers 275 00:14:50.911 --> 00:14:53.339 align:middle line:90% like the employees of the institutions that they are. 276 00:14:53.339 --> 00:14:55.947 align:middle line:90% You're talking about, like, almost separate leagues, 277 00:14:55.947 --> 00:15:00.276 align:middle line:90% like a National College Football League, a National College Basketball League, 278 00:15:00.276 --> 00:15:03.032 align:middle line:90% and, and treating players like employees. 279 00:15:03.032 --> 00:15:03.808 align:middle line:90% Exactly. 280 00:15:03.808 --> 00:15:05.504 align:middle line:90% Exactly, that's my remedy. 281 00:15:05.504 --> 00:15:07.585 align:middle line:90% And then people say, "Oh, what about Title IX?" 282 00:15:07.585 --> 00:15:09.874 align:middle line:90% Which we should say is, is a law that's in place to make sure 283 00:15:09.874 --> 00:15:13.826 align:middle line:90% there are not inequities between women's sports and men's sports. 284 00:15:13.826 --> 00:15:14.832 align:middle line:90% So, if we're only talking about 285 00:15:14.832 --> 00:15:17.831 align:middle line:90% men's college basketball and college football, 286 00:15:17.831 --> 00:15:19.168 align:middle line:90% then what about Title IX? 287 00:15:19.168 --> 00:15:21.182 align:middle line:90% I mean, how do we make sure that women playing volleyball, 288 00:15:21.182 --> 00:15:22.088 align:middle line:90% women playing basketball 289 00:15:22.088 --> 00:15:25.673 align:middle line:90% are enjoying the fruits that athletes in these separate leagues are enjoying? 290 00:15:25.673 --> 00:15:28.234 align:middle line:90% So, I go back to the beginning of our discussion. 291 00:15:28.234 --> 00:15:29.890 align:middle line:90% There are two types of sports. 292 00:15:29.890 --> 00:15:32.499 align:middle line:90% There are revenue-generating sports and there are expenditure sports. 293 00:15:33.024 --> 00:15:37.572 align:middle line:90% There would still be money in rights fees to pay for the crew team, 294 00:15:37.652 --> 00:15:40.431 align:middle line:90% to pay for the men's and women's tennis team, 295 00:15:40.911 --> 00:15:43.512 align:middle line:90% to pay for the women's volleyball team. 296 00:15:43.912 --> 00:15:46.788 align:middle line:90% So, a team in the National College Football League 297 00:15:46.860 --> 00:15:48.676 align:middle line:90% affiliated with the University of Michigan 298 00:15:48.676 --> 00:15:52.452 align:middle line:90% would have to pay Michigan rights fees to be affiliated… 299 00:15:52.452 --> 00:15:53.260 align:middle line:90% Sure. 300 00:15:53.260 --> 00:15:57.197 align:middle line:90% …and the University of Michigan could use that money to pay for other sports. 301 00:15:57.197 --> 00:15:58.014 align:middle line:90% Other sports. 302 00:15:58.014 --> 00:15:59.966 align:middle line:90% That's one of my suggestions. 303 00:15:59.966 --> 00:16:03.091 align:middle line:90% And then people will say, "Well, what about the education of the athletes?" 304 00:16:03.091 --> 00:16:08.711 align:middle line:90% Rather than tying an athlete's eligibility to a classroom 305 00:16:09.085 --> 00:16:12.775 align:middle line:90% where he or she is going to have to find the time 306 00:16:12.775 --> 00:16:16.653 align:middle line:90% to balance with their athletic responsibilities, 307 00:16:17.077 --> 00:16:21.699 align:middle line:90% why not give them the opportunity, as an employee of this corporation, 308 00:16:22.107 --> 00:16:25.922 align:middle line:90% to pursue higher ed as they see fit, 309 00:16:26.786 --> 00:16:30.396 align:middle line:90% and not have it tied to their athletic performance. 310 00:16:30.740 --> 00:16:33.460 align:middle line:90% So, if a high school kid is dreaming of playing football, 311 00:16:33.964 --> 00:16:35.887 align:middle line:90% they could think, "Here are my choices. 312 00:16:35.887 --> 00:16:40.415 align:middle line:90% Like, I could go to a smaller school that's not involved in this big money, 313 00:16:40.415 --> 00:16:43.632 align:middle line:90% and I could play football and be a student athlete, 314 00:16:43.632 --> 00:16:44.943 align:middle line:90% as much as that's possible." 315 00:16:45.272 --> 00:16:45.880 align:middle line:90% Mm-hmm. 316 00:16:45.980 --> 00:16:47.405 align:middle line:90% "Or if I'm good enough, 317 00:16:47.669 --> 00:16:53.572 align:middle line:90% I have the chance to be 19 years old and just get a job playing football…" 318 00:16:53.689 --> 00:16:54.353 align:middle line:90% Exactly. 319 00:16:54.353 --> 00:16:55.875 align:middle line:90% "…affiliated with a university 320 00:16:55.875 --> 00:16:59.038 align:middle line:90% and figure out my education totally separately." 321 00:16:59.238 --> 00:16:59.786 align:middle line:90% Sure. 322 00:16:59.862 --> 00:17:03.435 align:middle line:90% And get tuition remission like any other employee on the campus. 323 00:17:03.435 --> 00:17:05.720 align:middle line:90% I guess I'm, I'm following the logic here. 324 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:11.373 align:middle line:90% And I see how it takes care of confronting exploitation 325 00:17:11.373 --> 00:17:13.376 align:middle line:90% that we've seen for so long, 326 00:17:13.376 --> 00:17:16.073 align:middle line:90% especially in these big revenue-generating sports. 327 00:17:16.510 --> 00:17:20.799 align:middle line:90% I guess here's my question as a, as a sports fan. 328 00:17:20.800 --> 00:17:21.392 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 329 00:17:21.775 --> 00:17:26.864 align:middle line:90% If we basically create, like, the minor leagues of the NFL, 330 00:17:26.944 --> 00:17:28.975 align:middle line:90% which is this National College Football League… 331 00:17:29.080 --> 00:17:29.816 align:middle line:90% Mm-hmm. 332 00:17:29.831 --> 00:17:32.167 align:middle line:90% …am I going to be as excited to watch that? 333 00:17:32.167 --> 00:17:33.704 align:middle line:90% Because part of the appeal… 334 00:17:33.704 --> 00:17:35.304 align:middle line:90% Oh! Oh, yes, you are. 335 00:17:35.304 --> 00:17:36.504 align:middle line:90% …part of the appeal 336 00:17:36.504 --> 00:17:42.260 align:middle line:90% was this fantasy that I'm watching, you know, college students on the field… 337 00:17:42.260 --> 00:17:42.885 align:middle line:90% Right. 338 00:17:42.885 --> 00:17:46.820 align:middle line:90% …which made it separate from the NFL, separate from the NBA. 339 00:17:46.820 --> 00:17:49.321 align:middle line:90% And, and maybe that's what we just need to confront, 340 00:17:49.321 --> 00:17:52.142 align:middle line:90% but will it be as, as money-making? 341 00:17:52.142 --> 00:17:52.882 align:middle line:90% Oh, yeah. 342 00:17:52.882 --> 00:17:53.614 align:middle line:90% You know what? 343 00:17:53.614 --> 00:17:55.592 align:middle line:90% I like to get out and be a fan. 344 00:17:55.592 --> 00:18:00.091 align:middle line:90% Unfortunately, or fortunately, maybe this job hasn't jaded me that much. 345 00:18:00.091 --> 00:18:04.200 align:middle line:90% So, a few months ago, a buddy of mine went, and I went, 346 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:08.885 align:middle line:90% to Alabama, Tuscaloosa, to the Tennessee-Tuscaloosa game. 347 00:18:08.885 --> 00:18:12.308 align:middle line:90% Bought tickets, go down there to take in this game. 348 00:18:13.233 --> 00:18:17.105 align:middle line:90% David, I've been to a gazillion college football games 349 00:18:17.105 --> 00:18:19.169 align:middle line:90% and a gazillion NFL games. 350 00:18:19.765 --> 00:18:21.819 align:middle line:90% And like I said, I'm just going in as a fan, 351 00:18:22.011 --> 00:18:23.175 align:middle line:90% the experience as a fan. 352 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:27.951 align:middle line:90% 100,000-plus people in the stadium for this game. 353 00:18:28.343 --> 00:18:32.037 align:middle line:90% The adulation for the, the laborers on the field 354 00:18:32.037 --> 00:18:35.278 align:middle line:90% before the game was unbelievable. 355 00:18:35.278 --> 00:18:37.070 align:middle line:90% It had a little NASCAR vibe to it. 356 00:18:37.070 --> 00:18:39.096 align:middle line:90% I don't know if you've ever been to a NASCAR event, 357 00:18:39.408 --> 00:18:43.465 align:middle line:90% but one of the cool things that NASCAR does is before a race, 358 00:18:43.761 --> 00:18:46.461 align:middle line:90% they allow fans to basically go into the garages 359 00:18:46.461 --> 00:18:49.734 align:middle line:90% and meet their favorite drivers and crew chiefs. 360 00:18:49.734 --> 00:18:50.294 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 361 00:18:50.294 --> 00:18:52.411 align:middle line:90% A very fan-friendly event. 362 00:18:52.411 --> 00:18:54.160 align:middle line:90% It was basically like that at Alabama. 363 00:18:54.230 --> 00:18:56.896 align:middle line:90% You could go down on the field before the game 364 00:18:57.464 --> 00:19:00.191 align:middle line:90% and walk around the stadium 365 00:19:00.191 --> 00:19:03.299 align:middle line:90% and watch your favorite college players warming up. 366 00:19:04.023 --> 00:19:05.357 align:middle line:90% And if you had a special pass, 367 00:19:05.357 --> 00:19:08.824 align:middle line:90% you could walk inside the gate that cordoned off the field 368 00:19:08.824 --> 00:19:10.082 align:middle line:90% and get even closer to them. 369 00:19:10.278 --> 00:19:11.747 align:middle line:90% That's not going to go away, you're saying. 370 00:19:11.831 --> 00:19:13.060 align:middle line:90% That's not going to go away. 371 00:19:13.060 --> 00:19:17.744 align:middle line:90% And those 100,000-plus people that showed up for that game that day 372 00:19:18.224 --> 00:19:20.748 align:middle line:90% did not all go to the University of Alabama. 373 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:23.821 align:middle line:90% They grew up in Alabama, rooting for Alabama. 374 00:19:24.278 --> 00:19:27.348 align:middle line:90% And so, I don't think that they're going to care one way or another 375 00:19:27.348 --> 00:19:30.511 align:middle line:90% whether or not, you know, the, the star running back 376 00:19:30.807 --> 00:19:36.016 align:middle line:90% is a paid employee of the university or is studying communications. 377 00:19:36.018 --> 00:19:36.518 align:middle line:90% [INTRIGUING MUSIC] 378 00:19:36.916 --> 00:19:40.523 align:middle line:90% I am going to say, I am not quite as convinced as Kevin is 379 00:19:40.523 --> 00:19:42.419 align:middle line:90% that this is not going to change things a lot 380 00:19:42.419 --> 00:19:43.927 align:middle line:90% and change the fan experience. 381 00:19:43.927 --> 00:19:45.892 align:middle line:90% But, uh, I trust Kevin. 382 00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:49.816 align:middle line:90% And, you know, though Kevin has thought about all of this a ton, 383 00:19:49.928 --> 00:19:53.537 align:middle line:90% he will be the first to say that we're not likely to see a change 384 00:19:53.809 --> 00:19:57.137 align:middle line:90% like a National College Football League come anytime soon. 385 00:19:57.353 --> 00:20:00.727 align:middle line:90% He is, though, pretty optimistic that a wave of lawsuits this year 386 00:20:00.727 --> 00:20:03.864 align:middle line:90% could mean that very soon athletes are going to be paid. 387 00:20:03.864 --> 00:20:04.364 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 388 00:20:04.364 --> 00:20:08.627 align:middle line:90% You know, I think the most critical case right now in college sports 389 00:20:08.627 --> 00:20:10.532 align:middle line:90% is Johnson v. NCAA, 390 00:20:10.752 --> 00:20:14.150 align:middle line:90% which is slowly meandering its way through the federal courts. 391 00:20:14.150 --> 00:20:17.219 align:middle line:90% I think it's in a district court right now in Philadelphia. 392 00:20:17.339 --> 00:20:22.383 align:middle line:90% And it's a lawsuit brought by a former Villanova football player, 393 00:20:22.383 --> 00:20:23.315 align:middle line:90% Trey Johnson, 394 00:20:23.635 --> 00:20:26.948 align:middle line:90% and another few Division I student athletes, 395 00:20:27.476 --> 00:20:32.731 align:middle line:90% arguing, once again, that the idea of the student athlete is a myth, 396 00:20:33.163 --> 00:20:36.696 align:middle line:90% and that, in fact, college athletes should be considered employees 397 00:20:37.048 --> 00:20:39.787 align:middle line:90% subject to the Fair Labor Standards Act. 398 00:20:40.188 --> 00:20:43.634 align:middle line:90% And so far, their case has not been shot down. 399 00:20:43.778 --> 00:20:45.724 align:middle line:90% And this is just the latest salvo. 400 00:20:45.888 --> 00:20:48.632 align:middle line:90% I should also point out, going to Northwestern, 401 00:20:49.272 --> 00:20:50.629 align:middle line:90% that the attempt… 402 00:20:50.717 --> 00:20:53.297 align:middle line:90% I can't remember now how long ago, maybe 10 years ago, 403 00:20:53.847 --> 00:20:57.139 align:middle line:90% for members of their football team to unionize 404 00:20:57.331 --> 00:20:59.976 align:middle line:90% was originally given the green light 405 00:20:59.976 --> 00:21:04.432 align:middle line:90% by the Chicago Regional Office of the National Labor Relations Board. 406 00:21:04.897 --> 00:21:08.537 align:middle line:90% And then it was shot down when it got to the National Labor Relations Board. 407 00:21:09.196 --> 00:21:13.940 align:middle line:90% Well, the head of the Chicago National Labor Relations Board 408 00:21:13.940 --> 00:21:15.825 align:middle line:90% at that time, which greenlighted it, 409 00:21:15.825 --> 00:21:20.378 align:middle line:90% is now second in charge of the National Labor Relations Board. 410 00:21:20.839 --> 00:21:25.890 align:middle line:90% And the person for whom he works has stated on more than one occasion 411 00:21:26.289 --> 00:21:30.756 align:middle line:90% that she believes that college athletes are in fact eligible 412 00:21:30.820 --> 00:21:34.034 align:middle line:90% to be viewed as employees and treated as employees. 413 00:21:34.042 --> 00:21:34.546 align:middle line:90% Mm. 414 00:21:34.806 --> 00:21:40.319 align:middle line:90% So, I think the pendulum has swung in the favor of acknowledging 415 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:43.067 align:middle line:90% that college athletes are employees. 416 00:21:44.747 --> 00:21:48.708 align:middle line:90% And what onus should we put on ourselves as fans? 417 00:21:48.708 --> 00:21:50.031 align:middle line:90% I mean to say, like, I mean, 418 00:21:50.031 --> 00:21:52.029 align:middle line:90% you used a phrase earlier that really stuck with me. 419 00:21:52.029 --> 00:21:53.886 align:middle line:90% We have to know what we're watching. 420 00:21:54.430 --> 00:21:57.784 align:middle line:90% And that makes me now go into any college football 421 00:21:57.784 --> 00:21:59.575 align:middle line:90% or college basketball game that I'm watching 422 00:21:59.831 --> 00:22:01.480 align:middle line:90% with a sense of responsibility. 423 00:22:01.480 --> 00:22:05.113 align:middle line:90% Like, I feel like you're saying, "It's okay to watch and be a fan, 424 00:22:05.201 --> 00:22:07.054 align:middle line:90% but you need to acknowledge what's happening." 425 00:22:07.381 --> 00:22:10.336 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I mean, I think we have to bring pressure 426 00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:13.049 align:middle line:90% to bear upon those who can make decisions 427 00:22:13.049 --> 00:22:15.408 align:middle line:90% to change the structure of college athletics. 428 00:22:15.564 --> 00:22:17.418 align:middle line:90% And so, how do you do that? 429 00:22:18.078 --> 00:22:19.431 align:middle line:90% Well, if you live in a district 430 00:22:19.431 --> 00:22:23.739 align:middle line:90% where your congressperson is on Capitol Hill 431 00:22:23.811 --> 00:22:27.747 align:middle line:90% saying that paying players would be the ruination of college sports, 432 00:22:28.229 --> 00:22:30.126 align:middle line:90% you let them know that, no, it wouldn't be, 433 00:22:30.282 --> 00:22:31.675 align:middle line:90% because I'm still going to go to the game. 434 00:22:31.752 --> 00:22:33.512 align:middle line:90% And I'd feel a lot more comfortable 435 00:22:33.512 --> 00:22:38.157 align:middle line:90% knowing that the star wide receiver is getting a paycheck, 436 00:22:38.573 --> 00:22:40.907 align:middle line:90% and maybe even more importantly, 437 00:22:40.907 --> 00:22:44.748 align:middle line:90% has some sort of healthcare or workers' comp 438 00:22:44.748 --> 00:22:49.036 align:middle line:90% should he get hurt in a game and not be able to continue playing. 439 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:53.333 align:middle line:90% Your message to sports fans is don't contribute to a plantation economy 440 00:22:53.333 --> 00:22:56.365 align:middle line:90% without demanding change to do what you can to make that go away. 441 00:22:56.429 --> 00:22:57.082 align:middle line:90% Absolutely. 442 00:22:57.082 --> 00:22:59.836 align:middle line:90% I'm, you know, I'm not telling anybody to turn away from the games. 443 00:23:00.164 --> 00:23:01.861 align:middle line:90% I would be hypocritical if I said that. 444 00:23:02.162 --> 00:23:05.728 align:middle line:90% I fully admit, I am, I am addicted to sports, 445 00:23:05.728 --> 00:23:08.130 align:middle line:90% and I'm not turning away from college sports. 446 00:23:08.130 --> 00:23:09.743 align:middle line:90% It is spectacular. 447 00:23:10.104 --> 00:23:13.370 align:middle line:90% But it can be a lot more equitable. 448 00:23:13.779 --> 00:23:19.657 align:middle line:90% And we can treat those athletes with a higher level of well-being 449 00:23:19.657 --> 00:23:20.488 align:middle line:90% than we do now. 450 00:23:20.492 --> 00:23:20.992 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES IN] 451 00:23:21.773 --> 00:23:23.502 align:middle line:90% Kevin, it's always great talking to you. 452 00:23:23.502 --> 00:23:24.379 align:middle line:90% Thank you so much. 453 00:23:24.447 --> 00:23:25.380 align:middle line:90% Thanks for having me, David. 454 00:23:28.732 --> 00:23:32.987 align:middle line:90% You can find Kevin Blackistone's columns for "The Washington Post" on Apple News, 455 00:23:33.059 --> 00:23:35.929 align:middle line:90% and we'll include a link to his latest on our show notes page. 456 00:23:38.463 --> 00:23:38.963 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT]