WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.590 --> 00:00:01.090 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES IN] 2 00:00:03.990 --> 00:00:06.162 align:middle line:90% This is "In Conversation" from Apple News. 3 00:00:06.162 --> 00:00:08.528 align:middle line:90% I'm David Greene, filling in for Shumita Basu. 4 00:00:08.981 --> 00:00:12.878 align:middle line:90% Today, why the NFL is more popular than ever. 5 00:00:16.902 --> 00:00:17.402 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 6 00:00:20.636 --> 00:00:25.086 align:middle line:90% Whether you're a fan or not, the NFL is everywhere these days. 7 00:00:25.086 --> 00:00:25.586 align:middle line:90% [UPBEAT MUSIC] 8 00:00:25.586 --> 00:00:26.086 align:middle line:90% [START MONTAGE OF ARCHIVAL CLIPS] 9 00:00:26.086 --> 00:00:28.308 align:middle line:90% The NFL continues to set records. 10 00:00:28.308 --> 00:00:31.130 align:middle line:90% Everybody is watching NFL football. 11 00:00:31.130 --> 00:00:34.342 align:middle line:90% Viewership among teen girls spiked 53%. 12 00:00:34.342 --> 00:00:39.296 align:middle line:90% The NFL AFC wildcard game was the most streamed event in U.S. history. 13 00:00:39.296 --> 00:00:41.810 align:middle line:90% There was also an increase of about three million viewers 14 00:00:41.810 --> 00:00:43.089 align:middle line:90% over last weekend. 15 00:00:43.089 --> 00:00:46.123 align:middle line:90% NFL ratings dominate Christmas viewership. 16 00:00:46.123 --> 00:00:50.992 align:middle line:90% Raiders-Chiefs most watched Christmas Day game since 1989. 17 00:00:50.992 --> 00:00:54.481 align:middle line:90% The NFL is literally the Godzilla of entertainment. 18 00:00:54.739 --> 00:00:55.239 align:middle line:90% [END MONTAGE OF ARCHIVAL CLIPS] 19 00:00:55.761 --> 00:01:01.942 align:middle line:90% The NFL accounted for 93 of the top 100 U.S. broadcasts last year, 20 00:01:01.942 --> 00:01:02.990 align:middle line:90% according to Nielsen ratings. 21 00:01:02.990 --> 00:01:03.701 align:middle line:90% Put another way, 22 00:01:04.131 --> 00:01:10.966 align:middle line:90% only two other broadcasts broke through the top 50 most popular TV events of 2023. 23 00:01:11.037 --> 00:01:14.673 align:middle line:90% That would be the State of the Union and the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. 24 00:01:14.761 --> 00:01:15.437 align:middle line:90% The rest? 25 00:01:15.734 --> 00:01:16.916 align:middle line:90% All NFL games. 26 00:01:17.434 --> 00:01:21.100 align:middle line:90% And, you know, this is not where it seemed like the league was headed 27 00:01:21.100 --> 00:01:23.376 align:middle line:90% just a few years ago, when it was reeling 28 00:01:23.376 --> 00:01:25.806 align:middle line:90% from controversies around players' health, 29 00:01:25.980 --> 00:01:28.851 align:middle line:90% also allegations of racism in its hiring practices, 30 00:01:29.057 --> 00:01:31.816 align:middle line:90% and of course, Colin Kaepernick taking a knee 31 00:01:31.816 --> 00:01:35.712 align:middle line:90% in protest against police brutality, only to then lose his job. 32 00:01:36.182 --> 00:01:39.718 align:middle line:90% So, what's happened to cause this NFL boom now? 33 00:01:39.912 --> 00:01:42.031 align:middle line:90% I mean, it's certainly not the caliber of play. 34 00:01:42.124 --> 00:01:46.427 align:middle line:90% This season, this regular season, was not great as a matter of quality, 35 00:01:46.427 --> 00:01:48.678 align:middle line:90% as a matter of just, like, how good were the games. 36 00:01:49.048 --> 00:01:51.528 align:middle line:90% That is the voice there of Pablo Torre. 37 00:01:51.750 --> 00:01:53.694 align:middle line:90% He's a frequent contributor to "ESPN." 38 00:01:53.694 --> 00:01:57.257 align:middle line:90% He's also host of the podcast "Pablo Torre Finds Out." 39 00:01:57.380 --> 00:02:02.623 align:middle line:90% And so for me, what was so staggering was the way in which the NFL reasserted itself 40 00:02:02.623 --> 00:02:05.258 align:middle line:90% as the Goliath astride our country. 41 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:07.344 align:middle line:90% It was the season to point out, 42 00:02:07.344 --> 00:02:10.160 align:middle line:90% "Okay, are we really going to be this addicted to football?" 43 00:02:10.864 --> 00:02:13.370 align:middle line:90% And it turns out we have been more addicted than ever. 44 00:02:13.664 --> 00:02:18.032 align:middle line:90% Now, there are lots of theories as to why this year was particularly successful 45 00:02:18.032 --> 00:02:18.858 align:middle line:90% for the NFL. 46 00:02:19.063 --> 00:02:22.080 align:middle line:90% The league's expansion onto streaming platforms, 47 00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:23.820 align:middle line:90% the actors' and writers' strikes, 48 00:02:23.820 --> 00:02:26.546 align:middle line:90% which meant there were, you know, fewer options on television. 49 00:02:27.079 --> 00:02:30.323 align:middle line:90% And then, of course, there is Taylor Swift and her budding romance 50 00:02:30.323 --> 00:02:33.239 align:middle line:90% with Kansas City Chiefs tight end, Travis Kelce. 51 00:02:33.525 --> 00:02:37.651 align:middle line:90% Here is Travis talking with his brother, Jason, on their podcast, "New Heights." 52 00:02:37.734 --> 00:02:38.234 align:middle line:90% [START NEW HEIGHTS ARCHIVAL CLIP] 53 00:02:38.234 --> 00:02:41.194 align:middle line:90% Shoutout to the newest member of the Chiefs' kingdom, Taylor Swift, 54 00:02:41.194 --> 00:02:43.841 align:middle line:90% who has officially reached the Super Bowl in her rookie year. 55 00:02:43.841 --> 00:02:44.894 align:middle line:90% That's gotta feel good. 56 00:02:44.894 --> 00:02:46.534 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] Shoutout to Tay. 57 00:02:46.534 --> 00:02:47.034 align:middle line:90% [JASON KELCE LAUGHING] 58 00:02:47.717 --> 00:02:48.776 align:middle line:90% Thanks for joining the team. 59 00:02:48.929 --> 00:02:49.429 align:middle line:90% [JASON KELCE LAUGHING] 60 00:02:50.088 --> 00:02:50.588 align:middle line:90% [END NEW HEIGHTS ARCHIVAL CLIP] 61 00:02:50.588 --> 00:02:52.252 align:middle line:90% So, according to "The New York Times," 62 00:02:52.252 --> 00:02:55.432 align:middle line:90% in games that typically run three hours long, 63 00:02:55.573 --> 00:03:00.894 align:middle line:90% Taylor has been on screen for, get this, an average of less than 25 seconds. 64 00:03:01.029 --> 00:03:02.899 align:middle line:90% So, I wanted to start with Pablo by asking him 65 00:03:03.258 --> 00:03:07.329 align:middle line:90% why so many of us are rooting for Red, Taylor's Version. 66 00:03:07.405 --> 00:03:07.905 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 67 00:03:08.344 --> 00:03:13.467 align:middle line:90% It's like we're watching an extremely on-the-nose romantic comedy 68 00:03:13.550 --> 00:03:15.273 align:middle line:90% where the meet cute is 69 00:03:15.976 --> 00:03:20.169 align:middle line:90% the most popular pop cultural figure meets the most popular sport 70 00:03:20.169 --> 00:03:21.334 align:middle line:90% and they fall in love. 71 00:03:21.334 --> 00:03:22.879 align:middle line:90% And so, everybody now, 72 00:03:23.095 --> 00:03:26.756 align:middle line:90% you get dared not to watch or at least pay attention to it… 73 00:03:26.756 --> 00:03:27.284 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 74 00:03:27.284 --> 00:03:30.914 align:middle line:90% …even if it's just via scraps of gossip and tabloid stuff, 75 00:03:30.914 --> 00:03:32.465 align:middle line:90% as opposed to the actual games. 76 00:03:32.465 --> 00:03:33.990 align:middle line:90% The Taylor stuff is so fairytale. 77 00:03:33.990 --> 00:03:36.631 align:middle line:90% It's like, that's why I think it's hard to believe. 78 00:03:36.631 --> 00:03:40.733 align:middle line:90% Like, I watched Travis Kelce and Taylor on the field after the Chiefs won 79 00:03:40.733 --> 00:03:45.147 align:middle line:90% that AFC championship game, and it is impossible to watch them 80 00:03:45.147 --> 00:03:48.180 align:middle line:90% and think that this is anything but authentic. 81 00:03:48.180 --> 00:03:49.245 align:middle line:90% You just can't fake that. 82 00:03:49.245 --> 00:03:54.026 align:middle line:90% And yet, this is all too perfect for, like, the business and the NFL. 83 00:03:54.026 --> 00:03:55.805 align:middle line:90% It just-- it's mind-boggling. 84 00:03:55.876 --> 00:03:57.838 align:middle line:90% Yeah, Travis Kelce is America's prom king. 85 00:03:57.914 --> 00:03:58.914 align:middle line:90% Yeah. [LAUGHS] 86 00:03:58.914 --> 00:04:00.015 align:middle line:90% That's where we are now. 87 00:04:00.015 --> 00:04:03.272 align:middle line:90% And, and, and you're right. Dude, the moment when she shows up on the field, 88 00:04:03.272 --> 00:04:06.432 align:middle line:90% let's be clear for people who haven't been watching the saga unfold. 89 00:04:06.432 --> 00:04:06.932 align:middle line:90% Right. 90 00:04:06.932 --> 00:04:09.173 align:middle line:90% That was a big moment. [LAUGHS] 91 00:04:09.173 --> 00:04:12.040 align:middle line:90% We started with are they just-- Is it an op? 92 00:04:12.040 --> 00:04:12.540 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 93 00:04:12.540 --> 00:04:14.345 align:middle line:90% Is this a false flag operation? 94 00:04:14.345 --> 00:04:17.251 align:middle line:90% You know, two algorithms getting together for profit. 95 00:04:17.251 --> 00:04:22.160 align:middle line:90% And we've gone now to that scene, the scene we all know from the movie. 96 00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:28.533 align:middle line:90% It's just so, again, it's just on the nose in the sense of, of course, 97 00:04:28.533 --> 00:04:30.662 align:middle line:90% of course, it would go this way. 98 00:04:30.662 --> 00:04:34.201 align:middle line:90% And, of course, we would be talking about it in ways that are… 99 00:04:34.201 --> 00:04:39.076 align:middle line:90% [CHUCKLES] in ways that are a little like, "Is it sad that we care about this?" 100 00:04:39.076 --> 00:04:41.999 align:middle line:90% And then I'm reminded of, at a certain point, 101 00:04:41.999 --> 00:04:44.972 align:middle line:90% the spectacle becomes so large that it becomes interesting 102 00:04:44.972 --> 00:04:46.450 align:middle line:90% just because of its size. 103 00:04:46.450 --> 00:04:47.795 align:middle line:90% Yes, well put. 104 00:04:47.795 --> 00:04:50.429 align:middle line:90% It's like, you can't ignore it, even if you're gonna… it's meta. 105 00:04:50.429 --> 00:04:52.612 align:middle line:90% Like, even if you're gonna criticize it and be angry about it, 106 00:04:52.612 --> 00:04:54.198 align:middle line:90% it's like, the thing that's making you angry 107 00:04:54.198 --> 00:04:56.211 align:middle line:90% is the thing that makes you wanna watch it more, [LAUGHING] 108 00:04:56.211 --> 00:04:58.233 align:middle line:90% which is the, which is the craziness of it. 109 00:04:58.233 --> 00:05:00.258 align:middle line:90% And it's the thing that does not happen anymore. 110 00:05:00.258 --> 00:05:00.790 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 111 00:05:00.790 --> 00:05:03.516 align:middle line:90% Which is that here is the big, big thing 112 00:05:03.516 --> 00:05:06.032 align:middle line:90% in a world where I'm watching a show you've never heard of, right? 113 00:05:06.032 --> 00:05:06.532 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 114 00:05:06.532 --> 00:05:07.317 align:middle line:90% All the time. 115 00:05:07.317 --> 00:05:08.829 align:middle line:90% Here is the one thing that you've heard of. 116 00:05:08.829 --> 00:05:09.955 align:middle line:90% You've heard of this. 117 00:05:09.955 --> 00:05:10.525 align:middle line:90% Right. 118 00:05:10.525 --> 00:05:13.557 align:middle line:90% And that's just on its own, like, self-justifying in a… 119 00:05:13.557 --> 00:05:16.195 align:middle line:90% again, in a mildly dystopian way, I will admit. 120 00:05:16.195 --> 00:05:19.596 align:middle line:90% Well, you know, I want to be really careful about how 121 00:05:19.596 --> 00:05:21.524 align:middle line:90% we analyze the whole Taylor Swift effect, 122 00:05:21.524 --> 00:05:24.843 align:middle line:90% because there have been some descriptions of this that I have hated. 123 00:05:24.961 --> 00:05:28.659 align:middle line:90% Like, "Oh, Taylor gave so many women an on-ramp to be NFL fans." 124 00:05:28.659 --> 00:05:31.891 align:middle line:90% Like, this is coming from someone who, like, my mom, before she died, 125 00:05:31.891 --> 00:05:34.678 align:middle line:90% taught me to love football, taught me about football, 126 00:05:34.678 --> 00:05:37.037 align:middle line:90% taught me to be a Steelers fan, like, all of it. 127 00:05:37.037 --> 00:05:39.618 align:middle line:90% So, she would hate that, despise that sort of message. 128 00:05:39.618 --> 00:05:41.212 align:middle line:90% And I don't think that's what's going on. 129 00:05:41.306 --> 00:05:41.806 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 130 00:05:41.859 --> 00:05:43.965 align:middle line:90% It's much more nuanced and, and complicated 131 00:05:43.965 --> 00:05:48.276 align:middle line:90% and much more respectful of this sort of new group of fans coming in. 132 00:05:48.276 --> 00:05:49.494 align:middle line:90% But how, how do you see this? 133 00:05:49.825 --> 00:05:51.376 align:middle line:90% I see it as a question of power. 134 00:05:51.468 --> 00:05:54.155 align:middle line:90% And by the way, shoutout to your, your late mother, 135 00:05:54.787 --> 00:05:58.033 align:middle line:90% who taught you that a Terrible Towel does not need to be retconned 136 00:05:58.033 --> 00:06:00.484 align:middle line:90% into some story about, like, you know, 137 00:06:00.484 --> 00:06:04.163 align:middle line:90% the pop star who taught us to wave our fandom freely, right? 138 00:06:04.163 --> 00:06:04.663 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 139 00:06:04.663 --> 00:06:06.527 align:middle line:90% Just so people know, the Terrible Towel is, like, 140 00:06:06.527 --> 00:06:09.464 align:middle line:90% literally the foundation of being a Pittsburgh Steelers fan. 141 00:06:09.464 --> 00:06:11.124 align:middle line:90% It is a towel that we wave at every game. 142 00:06:11.124 --> 00:06:11.925 align:middle line:90% Yes, yes. 143 00:06:11.925 --> 00:06:16.603 align:middle line:90% And so for me, what this story is, is about a power dynamic, 144 00:06:16.632 --> 00:06:19.805 align:middle line:90% which is to say, like, how does this person who 145 00:06:19.805 --> 00:06:22.508 align:middle line:90% in every single room is the biggest thing 146 00:06:22.956 --> 00:06:26.572 align:middle line:90% end up feeling like someone who has to respect the folkways 147 00:06:26.572 --> 00:06:30.657 align:middle line:90% and the norms and the tribalism of Terrible Towels? 148 00:06:30.657 --> 00:06:33.912 align:middle line:90% And I was watching her on the field meet Travis Kelce, 149 00:06:34.080 --> 00:06:38.069 align:middle line:90% and you just see her moving through that 150 00:06:38.413 --> 00:06:41.562 align:middle line:90% as if she's not the sun of the solar system. 151 00:06:41.782 --> 00:06:43.002 align:middle line:90% Of course, there are cameras. 152 00:06:43.002 --> 00:06:44.798 align:middle line:90% Of course, there is attention. 153 00:06:44.962 --> 00:06:47.083 align:middle line:90% But it's not like every camera is tracking her. 154 00:06:47.083 --> 00:06:49.583 align:middle line:90% They're watching Travis Kelce. 155 00:06:49.583 --> 00:06:51.712 align:middle line:90% They're watching Andy Reid, Patrick Mahomes, 156 00:06:51.712 --> 00:06:53.960 align:middle line:90% and it just never happens that way. 157 00:06:54.113 --> 00:06:59.510 align:middle line:90% And so, is there some mutual genuflecting at each other's altars, right? 158 00:06:59.510 --> 00:07:02.230 align:middle line:90% The NFL on one side and Taylor Swift on the other. 159 00:07:02.462 --> 00:07:06.799 align:middle line:90% I think there is this understanding that there is a hugeness here. 160 00:07:07.132 --> 00:07:11.691 align:middle line:90% There is a, a Venn diagram here that sure, now there's overlap, 161 00:07:11.891 --> 00:07:15.352 align:middle line:90% but there were so many women [LAUGHS] 162 00:07:15.352 --> 00:07:18.214 align:middle line:90% who were watching this game before Taylor Swift showed up. 163 00:07:18.214 --> 00:07:20.375 align:middle line:90% And so, let's not oversimplify it, to your point. 164 00:07:20.375 --> 00:07:20.875 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 165 00:07:21.388 --> 00:07:23.536 align:middle line:90% Well, it's-- it is shocking 166 00:07:23.536 --> 00:07:25.768 align:middle line:90% what a great year this has been for the NFL, 167 00:07:25.768 --> 00:07:29.611 align:middle line:90% particularly if we think about some of the, the controversies 168 00:07:29.611 --> 00:07:34.713 align:middle line:90% and real problems in terms of image, in terms of behavior, 169 00:07:34.713 --> 00:07:38.454 align:middle line:90% in terms of the physical toll that this game takes on players. 170 00:07:38.454 --> 00:07:42.640 align:middle line:90% And I kind of want to talk about how they've overcome all of that, 171 00:07:42.640 --> 00:07:44.653 align:middle line:90% and, and I don't know if we can have that conversation 172 00:07:44.653 --> 00:07:46.193 align:middle line:90% without bringing up CTE first. 173 00:07:46.193 --> 00:07:48.316 align:middle line:90% I mean, this is the, this is the brain injury 174 00:07:48.316 --> 00:07:51.249 align:middle line:90% that a lot of NFL players, probably current players, 175 00:07:51.249 --> 00:07:53.384 align:middle line:90% but certainly former players suffer from, 176 00:07:53.384 --> 00:07:55.128 align:middle line:90% from all of the hits they took in the league. 177 00:07:55.128 --> 00:07:56.982 align:middle line:90% There was one study from Boston University. 178 00:07:56.982 --> 00:08:04.244 align:middle line:90% Researchers diagnosed 91.7% of former NFL players in their study 179 00:08:04.244 --> 00:08:06.332 align:middle line:90% with CTE, which is just an astounding number. 180 00:08:06.335 --> 00:08:06.895 align:middle line:90% Yes. 181 00:08:06.909 --> 00:08:09.456 align:middle line:90% I mean, how can a league that is so punishing 182 00:08:09.456 --> 00:08:12.752 align:middle line:90% and so life-threatening to people who play it 183 00:08:12.888 --> 00:08:15.494 align:middle line:90% also be something that we're, we're celebrating? 184 00:08:15.494 --> 00:08:16.568 align:middle line:90% It's the point. 185 00:08:16.816 --> 00:08:20.246 align:middle line:90% You know, violence is the thrill undergirding all of this. 186 00:08:20.579 --> 00:08:22.131 align:middle line:90% The reason the NFL matters, 187 00:08:22.131 --> 00:08:24.795 align:middle line:90% and we could talk about the programming strategy 188 00:08:24.795 --> 00:08:26.600 align:middle line:90% and the idea of we're going to claim a day of the week, 189 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:30.160 align:middle line:90% Sundays and then also Monday nights and then Thursday nights now, 190 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:33.820 align:middle line:90% like for all the Risk-board-ization that Roger Goodell has done 191 00:08:33.820 --> 00:08:36.433 align:middle line:90% with taking over American television and media. 192 00:08:36.433 --> 00:08:37.315 align:middle line:90% The commissioner, yeah. 193 00:08:37.497 --> 00:08:40.237 align:middle line:90% The fundamental product is violence, 194 00:08:40.741 --> 00:08:45.649 align:middle line:90% and it's that life or death, literally, everything matters here. 195 00:08:46.022 --> 00:08:49.169 align:middle line:90% Football has always been more like war than any other sport. 196 00:08:49.465 --> 00:08:51.571 align:middle line:90% George Carlin remarked upon this, right? 197 00:08:51.571 --> 00:08:55.325 align:middle line:90% The vocabulary of, like, how to make your way down a field, 198 00:08:55.325 --> 00:08:58.225 align:middle line:90% it borrows the vocabulary of military generals 199 00:08:58.225 --> 00:08:59.887 align:middle line:90% in a way that other sports do not. 200 00:09:00.448 --> 00:09:03.883 align:middle line:90% And the CTE question is not a question anymore. 201 00:09:04.099 --> 00:09:05.136 align:middle line:90% It's happening. 202 00:09:05.232 --> 00:09:08.849 align:middle line:90% And so, I think what we've seen is just a clear proof 203 00:09:08.849 --> 00:09:10.861 align:middle line:90% that Americans value entertainment. 204 00:09:11.170 --> 00:09:13.271 align:middle line:90% They value entertainment even at the cost 205 00:09:13.271 --> 00:09:16.046 align:middle line:90% of the well-being of the participants of that entertainment. 206 00:09:16.046 --> 00:09:17.230 align:middle line:90% Right. Right. 207 00:09:17.230 --> 00:09:19.305 align:middle line:90% In that way, it's a reality television show 208 00:09:19.305 --> 00:09:21.433 align:middle line:90% in which the stakes are not just humiliation, 209 00:09:21.433 --> 00:09:23.250 align:middle line:90% but cognitive health. 210 00:09:23.250 --> 00:09:26.116 align:middle line:90% And then also, I think, to be maybe more generous 211 00:09:26.116 --> 00:09:30.633 align:middle line:90% to football fans like myself, still how do we justify it? 212 00:09:30.633 --> 00:09:35.655 align:middle line:90% It's because we assume now that the participants know the risks. 213 00:09:35.655 --> 00:09:36.255 align:middle line:90% Yes. 214 00:09:36.705 --> 00:09:37.649 align:middle line:90% It's all out there. 215 00:09:37.797 --> 00:09:40.677 align:middle line:90% And so, if you're an adult who chooses to do this, 216 00:09:40.677 --> 00:09:44.004 align:middle line:90% it reminds me of boxing, you know. Like, do we want to outlaw boxing? 217 00:09:44.004 --> 00:09:47.651 align:middle line:90% Boxing is literally professional, legalized, sanctioned, 218 00:09:47.651 --> 00:09:49.190 align:middle line:90% consensual concussions. 219 00:09:49.945 --> 00:09:54.535 align:middle line:90% And my view on boxing has always been, if you know what you are in for, 220 00:09:54.535 --> 00:09:56.272 align:middle line:90% you know the risks, you've seen the studies, 221 00:09:56.272 --> 00:09:59.484 align:middle line:90% the doctors are not lying to you, which was not always the case, by the way, 222 00:09:59.484 --> 00:10:01.499 align:middle line:90% with boxing and certainly not with the NFL. 223 00:10:02.003 --> 00:10:04.531 align:middle line:90% But now, because there has been 224 00:10:04.531 --> 00:10:07.075 align:middle line:90% so much reporting, investigative journalism, 225 00:10:07.483 --> 00:10:10.432 align:middle line:90% forcing the hand of the NFL to admit that this is real-- 226 00:10:11.029 --> 00:10:14.332 align:middle line:90% And they could do more and more of that admitting and disclosure, 227 00:10:14.332 --> 00:10:15.506 align:middle line:90% I will also point out. 228 00:10:15.778 --> 00:10:19.592 align:middle line:90% Now, you're like, okay, they see the costs and they see the benefits, 229 00:10:19.592 --> 00:10:20.791 align:middle line:90% and they've made that choice. 230 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:26.625 align:middle line:90% And so now, the gladiator metaphor is not just flowery language. 231 00:10:26.701 --> 00:10:29.513 align:middle line:90% It's, oh, this is part of why this is thrilling, 232 00:10:29.513 --> 00:10:32.478 align:middle line:90% is, is the mortality of the people involved. 233 00:10:32.601 --> 00:10:33.802 align:middle line:90% You know, I think that's a really good point. 234 00:10:33.802 --> 00:10:36.581 align:middle line:90% I think you're touching on why I, as a fan, 235 00:10:36.909 --> 00:10:41.130 align:middle line:90% continue to be okay being such a diehard fan despite this, 236 00:10:41.130 --> 00:10:43.528 align:middle line:90% because I think now it's not hidden. 237 00:10:43.528 --> 00:10:44.528 align:middle line:90% It's out there. 238 00:10:44.817 --> 00:10:47.946 align:middle line:90% Players are making a choice to play. 239 00:10:48.575 --> 00:10:49.975 align:middle line:90% And they know the risks, 240 00:10:49.975 --> 00:10:53.980 align:middle line:90% and somehow that gives me some element of peace as a fan, 241 00:10:53.980 --> 00:10:55.620 align:middle line:90% but it's, it's still hard. 242 00:10:55.732 --> 00:10:58.459 align:middle line:90% I think the thing that, the thing I think about is kids 243 00:10:58.459 --> 00:11:01.545 align:middle line:90% and what a lot of parents are now going through 244 00:11:01.545 --> 00:11:05.335 align:middle line:90% when they have seven-, eight-, nine-year-olds who are diehard fans. 245 00:11:05.335 --> 00:11:08.924 align:middle line:90% I have a nephew who is like, you know, is dreaming about being an NFL cornerback, 246 00:11:08.924 --> 00:11:12.411 align:middle line:90% and he's probably going to be a great one if he, if he decides to go that route. 247 00:11:12.411 --> 00:11:13.975 align:middle line:90% But, but his parents are like, 248 00:11:13.975 --> 00:11:17.261 align:middle line:90% "Can we pick another sport that doesn't, you know, 249 00:11:17.261 --> 00:11:21.541 align:middle line:90% so clearly put you and your brain at risk and alter your life?" 250 00:11:21.613 --> 00:11:22.113 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 251 00:11:22.113 --> 00:11:23.667 align:middle line:90% I mean, there are, there are characters, right, 252 00:11:23.667 --> 00:11:26.228 align:middle line:90% the toughest men in this game throughout history, 253 00:11:26.228 --> 00:11:28.793 align:middle line:90% who say, "I don't want my kids to play it." 254 00:11:28.793 --> 00:11:29.297 align:middle line:90% Right. 255 00:11:29.418 --> 00:11:32.944 align:middle line:90% And simultaneously, "The New York Times" did excellent reporting into this as well, 256 00:11:33.208 --> 00:11:34.649 align:middle line:90% there are the parents 257 00:11:34.649 --> 00:11:38.788 align:middle line:90% of now incredibly tragically deceased young people 258 00:11:39.204 --> 00:11:42.311 align:middle line:90% who had CTE found in their brains posthumously, 259 00:11:42.527 --> 00:11:45.569 align:middle line:90% and they even still today with their siblings say, 260 00:11:45.785 --> 00:11:47.155 align:middle line:90% "We want them to keep playing." 261 00:11:47.631 --> 00:11:51.841 align:middle line:90% And so, look, the calculus for all of us varies for all these reasons, 262 00:11:51.841 --> 00:11:55.892 align:middle line:90% but the, the thing the NFL is going to have to grapple with 263 00:11:55.964 --> 00:11:58.685 align:middle line:90% as the science on this becomes that much more clear 264 00:11:58.685 --> 00:12:01.432 align:middle line:90% and that much more intimidating is just 265 00:12:01.432 --> 00:12:04.047 align:middle line:90% what does that do to our pipeline of prospects? 266 00:12:04.049 --> 00:12:04.569 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 267 00:12:04.660 --> 00:12:06.561 align:middle line:90% Because I'll, I'll refer to boxing. 268 00:12:06.561 --> 00:12:10.204 align:middle line:90% Boxing is the sport of the desperate, right? 269 00:12:10.204 --> 00:12:12.782 align:middle line:90% Like, suburban kids don't become boxers, man. 270 00:12:13.450 --> 00:12:16.883 align:middle line:90% And that's for the obvious reasons of its consensual concussions. 271 00:12:16.950 --> 00:12:17.478 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 272 00:12:17.478 --> 00:12:20.238 align:middle line:90% And so, in the NFL, you dress that up with everything, 273 00:12:20.238 --> 00:12:23.588 align:middle line:90% Taylor Swift down to just the glory of a high school field. 274 00:12:23.737 --> 00:12:29.155 align:middle line:90% And I think you have to make a choice as to, "What am I signing up for here?" 275 00:12:29.155 --> 00:12:34.596 align:middle line:90% And therefore, you know, I think about if you have a relative exodus 276 00:12:34.596 --> 00:12:38.826 align:middle line:90% of suburban, well-off kids who choose to do other things, 277 00:12:39.270 --> 00:12:42.205 align:middle line:90% I think that changes just the demographics of the game. 278 00:12:42.205 --> 00:12:44.856 align:middle line:90% It points it in a way that's even more troubling… 279 00:12:44.857 --> 00:12:45.457 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 280 00:12:45.457 --> 00:12:48.877 align:middle line:90% …certainly, of like, okay, so the socioeconomically disadvantaged, 281 00:12:48.877 --> 00:12:52.590 align:middle line:90% racially, what does that look like in that overlap with socioeconomics? 282 00:12:52.728 --> 00:12:55.112 align:middle line:90% And then for the NFL, and we've seen this already, 283 00:12:55.112 --> 00:12:56.785 align:middle line:90% you know this as a fan of the game, 284 00:12:57.257 --> 00:12:59.727 align:middle line:90% how do we protect the most valued among them, 285 00:12:59.727 --> 00:13:01.048 align:middle line:90% which is the quarterback? 286 00:13:01.232 --> 00:13:05.232 align:middle line:90% And so, we're, we're seeing these rules that are protecting the quarterback, 287 00:13:05.232 --> 00:13:08.380 align:middle line:90% protecting offense, protecting entertainment. 288 00:13:08.540 --> 00:13:13.683 align:middle line:90% Because if you end up being a league where every quarterback is sounding, 289 00:13:13.683 --> 00:13:16.690 align:middle line:90% on the back end of their career, like, like a boxer, 290 00:13:17.008 --> 00:13:19.892 align:middle line:90% because of the cognitive decline, because they're slurring their words, 291 00:13:19.892 --> 00:13:21.393 align:middle line:90% because of all of these things, 292 00:13:21.393 --> 00:13:24.384 align:middle line:90% well, now the commercial for the game becomes bleak. 293 00:13:24.873 --> 00:13:26.797 align:middle line:90% But getting back to some of your, your questions 294 00:13:26.797 --> 00:13:28.372 align:middle line:90% about race and, and class 295 00:13:28.372 --> 00:13:31.324 align:middle line:90% and suburban kids not wanting to play because of the, of the risk, 296 00:13:31.324 --> 00:13:33.911 align:middle line:90% I mean, how do we grapple with the potential for this being 297 00:13:33.911 --> 00:13:37.301 align:middle line:90% a real, a real race-class problem? 298 00:13:37.581 --> 00:13:43.934 align:middle line:90% Well, the good news for the NFL is that it has largely been this way already. 299 00:13:44.222 --> 00:13:47.721 align:middle line:90% And it's been not a thing that has stopped people from loving the game. 300 00:13:48.017 --> 00:13:51.724 align:middle line:90% Those breakdowns exist already in terms of the-- just the percentages. 301 00:13:52.512 --> 00:13:56.685 align:middle line:90% In 2022, at least 56% of the NFL was Black. 302 00:13:57.155 --> 00:14:01.017 align:middle line:90% And so, in that, of course, there is always an array 303 00:14:01.017 --> 00:14:05.221 align:middle line:90% of, of troubling questions about power dynamics, right? 304 00:14:05.221 --> 00:14:08.691 align:middle line:90% Of what does it mean to have almost entirely white leadership 305 00:14:08.955 --> 00:14:11.374 align:middle line:90% steering a Black population? 306 00:14:11.522 --> 00:14:14.869 align:middle line:90% How does that overlap with the ways that these athletes are, in fact, 307 00:14:14.869 --> 00:14:18.527 align:middle line:90% already desperate to make it out of their station growing up? 308 00:14:18.527 --> 00:14:22.225 align:middle line:90% And sports happens to be both an incredible way 309 00:14:22.225 --> 00:14:25.380 align:middle line:90% to shoots-and-ladders your way towards a better life, 310 00:14:25.380 --> 00:14:26.718 align:middle line:90% towards an American dream 311 00:14:26.995 --> 00:14:31.129 align:middle line:90% and also this incredibly misleading sales pitch… 312 00:14:31.131 --> 00:14:31.631 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 313 00:14:31.631 --> 00:14:33.323 align:middle line:90% …that you can be them. 314 00:14:33.323 --> 00:14:35.590 align:middle line:90% And statistically, of course, that is not the case. 315 00:14:35.590 --> 00:14:36.147 align:middle line:90% Not at all. 316 00:14:36.147 --> 00:14:39.435 align:middle line:90% And so, what happens to all those players who tried and failed, 317 00:14:39.435 --> 00:14:40.811 align:middle line:90% put their eggs in that basket, 318 00:14:40.811 --> 00:14:43.985 align:middle line:90% because they, they bought into a, essentially, a lie 319 00:14:43.985 --> 00:14:45.859 align:middle line:90% that they can be one of these players. 320 00:14:45.859 --> 00:14:49.570 align:middle line:90% And so, the, the knock-on effects, the negative externalities, 321 00:14:49.570 --> 00:14:53.594 align:middle line:90% the unintended consequences of what it is to be the most powerful, popular sport, 322 00:14:53.844 --> 00:14:58.064 align:middle line:90% it does require an uncomfortable bit of introspection 323 00:14:58.064 --> 00:15:00.256 align:middle line:90% and sociological self-awareness… 324 00:15:00.260 --> 00:15:00.884 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 325 00:15:00.888 --> 00:15:04.410 align:middle line:90% …because this is a microcosm of, of labor and race in America. 326 00:15:04.707 --> 00:15:06.830 align:middle line:90% Well, and adding to that, I mean, you have a… 327 00:15:06.933 --> 00:15:09.301 align:middle line:90% you have a really respected former coach, Brian Flores, 328 00:15:09.301 --> 00:15:12.790 align:middle line:90% who files this lawsuit against the NFL, you know, basically saying 329 00:15:12.790 --> 00:15:15.674 align:middle line:90% there is systemic racism in hiring practices, 330 00:15:15.674 --> 00:15:17.801 align:middle line:90% particularly hiring practices when it comes to coaches, 331 00:15:17.801 --> 00:15:20.429 align:middle line:90% which, of course, fuels the narrative that you were talking about, 332 00:15:20.429 --> 00:15:22.144 align:middle line:90% that we have, you know, largely white owners 333 00:15:22.144 --> 00:15:25.225 align:middle line:90% and coaches who are leading, you know, athletes of color 334 00:15:25.225 --> 00:15:27.404 align:middle line:90% into battle in a sport that is deadly. 335 00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:31.498 align:middle line:90% Um, I mean, it's-- These sound like things the NFL's got to confront. 336 00:15:31.747 --> 00:15:37.068 align:middle line:90% They gotta confront it on every level of, I would even say, moral obligation. 337 00:15:37.593 --> 00:15:39.532 align:middle line:90% And it's something that they absolutely do not have 338 00:15:39.532 --> 00:15:42.910 align:middle line:90% to confront on the level of economic pressure. 339 00:15:43.585 --> 00:15:47.498 align:middle line:90% It just feels like we're at a point that for all of the Sturm und Drang 340 00:15:47.498 --> 00:15:53.794 align:middle line:90% of people pointing out these inequalities, that the popularity of the game is 341 00:15:53.794 --> 00:15:56.209 align:middle line:90% in its own way self-justifying, right? 342 00:15:56.227 --> 00:15:59.413 align:middle line:90% Like, I think about the NFL, um, posts, certainly-- 343 00:15:59.413 --> 00:16:00.746 align:middle line:90% I mean, Colin Kaepernick, right? 344 00:16:00.746 --> 00:16:05.095 align:middle line:90% There are all of these examples of a-- In that case, a Black quarterback 345 00:16:05.095 --> 00:16:08.092 align:middle line:90% who persuasively claims to have been blackballed 346 00:16:08.092 --> 00:16:09.574 align:middle line:90% because of protesting the national anthem. 347 00:16:09.574 --> 00:16:10.074 align:middle line:90% Right. 348 00:16:10.242 --> 00:16:10.742 align:middle line:90% Right? 349 00:16:10.742 --> 00:16:14.549 align:middle line:90% Um, into how does the NFL then deal with 2020? Right? 350 00:16:14.549 --> 00:16:17.456 align:middle line:90% This year of "hashtag racial reckoning." 351 00:16:17.757 --> 00:16:21.079 align:middle line:90% They literally will paint "end racism" in the end zone. 352 00:16:21.475 --> 00:16:24.009 align:middle line:90% Um, they'll put logos on helmets. 353 00:16:24.057 --> 00:16:25.478 align:middle line:90% But, but blackball Colin Kaepernick. 354 00:16:25.478 --> 00:16:27.065 align:middle line:90% I mean, according to him, of course. So, yeah. 355 00:16:27.065 --> 00:16:27.617 align:middle line:90% Yes. 356 00:16:27.617 --> 00:16:34.034 align:middle line:90% And also, have, have an ownership class that is devoid of representation 357 00:16:34.034 --> 00:16:37.604 align:middle line:90% of the people whose bodies as we've pointed out quite clearly, 358 00:16:37.630 --> 00:16:39.114 align:middle line:90% are the grist for this mill. 359 00:16:39.634 --> 00:16:45.599 align:middle line:90% And so, in those ways, um, the NFL certainly pays lip service, 360 00:16:45.849 --> 00:16:50.619 align:middle line:90% but those actual structural inequities are, are overwhelmingly 361 00:16:50.619 --> 00:16:52.025 align:middle line:90% and undeniably still real. 362 00:16:53.105 --> 00:16:55.292 align:middle line:90% Let me ask you about another, another aspect of what the NFL 363 00:16:55.292 --> 00:16:56.667 align:middle line:90% has been going through in its evolution. 364 00:16:56.667 --> 00:16:59.029 align:middle line:90% This speaks not just to the NFL, but to sports in general. 365 00:16:59.029 --> 00:17:03.051 align:middle line:90% I mean, there was a time not so long ago when you wanted 366 00:17:03.051 --> 00:17:07.258 align:middle line:90% to separate gambling from the sports and teams themselves. 367 00:17:07.258 --> 00:17:10.951 align:middle line:90% And it feels like somehow we have arrived at a point where the NFL 368 00:17:10.951 --> 00:17:16.153 align:middle line:90% and other leagues are not just accepting, but embracing gambling 369 00:17:16.153 --> 00:17:19.805 align:middle line:90% as part of the culture, as a way to build the brand. 370 00:17:20.016 --> 00:17:22.620 align:middle line:90% What happened and, and is this okay? 371 00:17:23.163 --> 00:17:26.700 align:middle line:90% There's a great quote from the former head of "NBC Sports," 372 00:17:26.700 --> 00:17:28.827 align:middle line:90% the legend Don Ohlmeyer. 373 00:17:29.261 --> 00:17:30.361 align:middle line:90% And the quote is simple. 374 00:17:30.689 --> 00:17:32.730 align:middle line:90% "The answer to all of your questions is money." 375 00:17:32.943 --> 00:17:33.443 align:middle line:90% [GREENE LAUGHING] 376 00:17:33.655 --> 00:17:35.633 align:middle line:90% And, and in that way… 377 00:17:35.633 --> 00:17:38.550 align:middle line:90% It doesn't feel that profound, but so… it's so true. 378 00:17:38.846 --> 00:17:40.253 align:middle line:90% But so true. 379 00:17:40.298 --> 00:17:42.348 align:middle line:90% And so with gambling, it was, 380 00:17:42.348 --> 00:17:44.976 align:middle line:90% "Hey, do you guys want to add another bit 381 00:17:44.976 --> 00:17:48.217 align:middle line:90% of plutonium to this power plant you're building? 382 00:17:48.217 --> 00:17:52.734 align:middle line:90% Do you want to unlock all of the revenue that lies inside of now the legalization 383 00:17:52.774 --> 00:17:55.635 align:middle line:90% in many states now of sports betting?" 384 00:17:56.058 --> 00:17:58.303 align:middle line:90% And so the NFL is in this position of, 385 00:17:58.303 --> 00:18:00.307 align:middle line:90% and sports broadly are in this position of 386 00:18:00.518 --> 00:18:01.899 align:middle line:90% this used to be verboten. 387 00:18:01.939 --> 00:18:02.960 align:middle line:90% It was the one thing. 388 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:03.899 align:middle line:90% It was heresy. 389 00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:07.075 align:middle line:90% And now, you have ads everywhere! 390 00:18:07.520 --> 00:18:10.501 align:middle line:90% Just sanctioned official sports betting partners, 391 00:18:10.719 --> 00:18:12.083 align:middle line:90% and all of that is not something 392 00:18:12.083 --> 00:18:16.020 align:middle line:90% that I approach with a moralizing hectoring, "How dare you," 393 00:18:16.385 --> 00:18:20.587 align:middle line:90% but more with the… with the chuckle of what it used to be like. 394 00:18:21.317 --> 00:18:23.651 align:middle line:90% And so the NFL now is just in this position of like, 395 00:18:23.651 --> 00:18:25.830 align:middle line:90% "Okay, what do we do? How do we square the circle?" 396 00:18:25.830 --> 00:18:31.265 align:middle line:90% Well, the thing they really fear is this accusation, 397 00:18:31.441 --> 00:18:33.309 align:middle line:90% not that people are going to gamble too much, 398 00:18:33.335 --> 00:18:35.578 align:middle line:90% but that the players themselves will be compromised 399 00:18:35.992 --> 00:18:39.605 align:middle line:90% or be tempted to be compromised by the money they could win 400 00:18:39.605 --> 00:18:43.066 align:middle line:90% if they were to throw a game, affect the outcome of something, you know. 401 00:18:43.066 --> 00:18:43.566 align:middle line:90% Right. 402 00:18:43.566 --> 00:18:45.276 align:middle line:90% Which has happened over the years of sports, 403 00:18:45.276 --> 00:18:46.917 align:middle line:90% but, like, not as much as I would expect. 404 00:18:46.931 --> 00:18:49.224 align:middle line:90% But it's definitely been a problem when it happens. 405 00:18:49.224 --> 00:18:49.759 align:middle line:90% Correct. 406 00:18:49.820 --> 00:18:53.512 align:middle line:90% And it feels like the integrity of the game in that way is a real, 407 00:18:53.556 --> 00:18:55.332 align:middle line:90% actual mortal sin still. 408 00:18:55.489 --> 00:18:59.655 align:middle line:90% So, what the NFL does is they over-punish these players who happen 409 00:18:59.655 --> 00:19:02.560 align:middle line:90% to be making bets on things that are not even affecting 410 00:19:02.560 --> 00:19:03.719 align:middle line:90% the games they play in. 411 00:19:04.137 --> 00:19:07.936 align:middle line:90% But if you walk into a facility in the NFL and you make a bet on something else, 412 00:19:08.558 --> 00:19:10.723 align:middle line:90% that is a punishable, um, offense. 413 00:19:11.135 --> 00:19:13.682 align:middle line:90% And so they're just doing this scared straight program 414 00:19:13.682 --> 00:19:15.697 align:middle line:90% with players where it's like they're trying 415 00:19:15.697 --> 00:19:17.788 align:middle line:90% to get them to stop gambling 416 00:19:17.788 --> 00:19:20.283 align:middle line:90% at the same time they're telling everybody else to gamble 417 00:19:20.531 --> 00:19:23.669 align:middle line:90% because that's the thing now they're going to protect amid all of the change is just 418 00:19:24.369 --> 00:19:26.758 align:middle line:90% let's not have the games themselves be called into question 419 00:19:26.758 --> 00:19:27.746 align:middle line:90% because by the way, 420 00:19:28.473 --> 00:19:32.254 align:middle line:90% the integrity of the games is also the business of gambling. [LAUGHS] 421 00:19:32.254 --> 00:19:33.419 align:middle line:90% Right. Right. 422 00:19:33.419 --> 00:19:33.993 align:middle line:90% And so, again, 423 00:19:33.993 --> 00:19:40.393 align:middle line:90% it goes to the money you can make if these things are still fair experiments 424 00:19:40.393 --> 00:19:41.989 align:middle line:90% of, of chance and skill. 425 00:19:42.844 --> 00:19:43.521 align:middle line:90% Well, I-- 426 00:19:44.171 --> 00:19:47.799 align:middle line:90% I want to look back, um, even further into-- into history 427 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:50.212 align:middle line:90% because you're actually, you're doing one of your episodes 428 00:19:50.212 --> 00:19:52.205 align:middle line:90% of your podcast on the first Super Bowl 429 00:19:52.205 --> 00:19:54.300 align:middle line:90% which, I mean, I've been an NFL fan all my life, 430 00:19:54.300 --> 00:19:59.435 align:middle line:90% and I did not fully realize what an absolutely wild mess 431 00:19:59.435 --> 00:20:01.185 align:middle line:90% of a game that was. 432 00:20:01.944 --> 00:20:04.674 align:middle line:90% I mean, tell me what got you interested and, and, uh… 433 00:20:04.844 --> 00:20:06.116 align:middle line:90% you know, give us a bit of a window. 434 00:20:06.492 --> 00:20:09.080 align:middle line:90% Yeah, so we're obsessed with firsts in this country 435 00:20:09.080 --> 00:20:10.163 align:middle line:90% and certainly in sports. 436 00:20:10.177 --> 00:20:10.677 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 437 00:20:10.677 --> 00:20:12.668 align:middle line:90% And it just occurred to me that I know nothing 438 00:20:12.668 --> 00:20:13.938 align:middle line:90% about Super Bowl I. 439 00:20:13.938 --> 00:20:14.747 align:middle line:90% Right? I didn't either. 440 00:20:14.747 --> 00:20:17.642 align:middle line:90% Like, yeah, I'm glad you-- I'm glad you're illuminating. 441 00:20:17.917 --> 00:20:19.473 align:middle line:90% Yeah, like, where did it all start? 442 00:20:19.473 --> 00:20:23.317 align:middle line:90% Like, this is the number one event culturally in America now. 443 00:20:23.369 --> 00:20:23.869 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 444 00:20:23.916 --> 00:20:26.911 align:middle line:90% It's the biggest thing in terms of money and influence 445 00:20:26.911 --> 00:20:28.083 align:middle line:90% and all the things we've been talking about. 446 00:20:28.443 --> 00:20:32.044 align:middle line:90% And it started, of course, in almost the exact opposite place. 447 00:20:32.541 --> 00:20:35.251 align:middle line:90% And so for people who don't realize this, remember this, um, 448 00:20:35.513 --> 00:20:37.014 align:middle line:90% the NFL was not always the NFL. 449 00:20:37.088 --> 00:20:39.307 align:middle line:90% The NFL was once a startup with a competitor, 450 00:20:39.551 --> 00:20:41.684 align:middle line:90% and its competitor was the AFL. 451 00:20:41.881 --> 00:20:45.462 align:middle line:90% The American Football League and the AFL was this threat. 452 00:20:45.462 --> 00:20:46.583 align:middle line:90% It was the younger league. 453 00:20:46.583 --> 00:20:50.420 align:middle line:90% It was speed and passing and it was actually more welcoming 454 00:20:50.420 --> 00:20:53.197 align:middle line:90% of Black players relative to the NFL, which is more conservative, 455 00:20:53.408 --> 00:20:57.735 align:middle line:90% um, despite it being relative to now still quite young. 456 00:20:58.046 --> 00:20:58.705 align:middle line:90% And so, 457 00:20:59.264 --> 00:21:02.694 align:middle line:90% what happened was, there was an agreed to merger. 458 00:21:02.934 --> 00:21:07.196 align:middle line:90% The AFL and the NFL were going to finally merge in 1970. 459 00:21:07.555 --> 00:21:10.996 align:middle line:90% But before then, they were going to start playing these games 460 00:21:10.996 --> 00:21:13.176 align:middle line:90% that would decide which league was better. 461 00:21:13.365 --> 00:21:13.865 align:middle line:90% Right. 462 00:21:13.865 --> 00:21:16.837 align:middle line:90% And so the first Super Bowl was in January 1967. 463 00:21:17.223 --> 00:21:19.767 align:middle line:90% And it was… It was a joke. 464 00:21:19.990 --> 00:21:22.316 align:middle line:90% Wasn't there a halftime show, like, some debacle 465 00:21:22.316 --> 00:21:23.734 align:middle line:90% with a jetpack at the first Super Bowl? What… 466 00:21:23.734 --> 00:21:24.383 align:middle line:90% Yes. 467 00:21:24.623 --> 00:21:25.792 align:middle line:90% Yes. Yes. 468 00:21:26.352 --> 00:21:29.938 align:middle line:90% There were hydrogen peroxide fuel jetpacks, 469 00:21:30.406 --> 00:21:31.640 align:middle line:90% which was the entertainment. 470 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:32.259 align:middle line:90% Right. 471 00:21:32.259 --> 00:21:33.944 align:middle line:90% The third quarter. right? 472 00:21:33.944 --> 00:21:38.136 align:middle line:90% So, the kickoff then, um, they had to redo it 473 00:21:38.779 --> 00:21:41.670 align:middle line:90% because the cameras missed it, because it got botched. 474 00:21:41.865 --> 00:21:44.841 align:middle line:90% So literally the game started and they were like, hold on, 475 00:21:45.233 --> 00:21:47.110 align:middle line:90% we got to do this over. It's just like, this is, 476 00:21:47.470 --> 00:21:49.408 align:middle line:90% it's Bad News Bears stuff. 477 00:21:50.184 --> 00:21:51.715 align:middle line:90% And it's this thing where people… 478 00:21:51.882 --> 00:21:55.093 align:middle line:90% It's just funny on so many different levels 479 00:21:55.093 --> 00:21:56.309 align:middle line:90% to go back and revisit it. 480 00:21:56.309 --> 00:21:58.471 align:middle line:90% And one of the levels that's funny about it is, 481 00:21:58.779 --> 00:22:01.506 align:middle line:90% the tape of it was lost to the sands of time. 482 00:22:01.857 --> 00:22:03.748 align:middle line:90% Yeah, okay, that part shocks me. 483 00:22:03.748 --> 00:22:08.547 align:middle line:90% How, how did, how did they lose the footage of the first Super Bowl ever? 484 00:22:09.321 --> 00:22:13.564 align:middle line:90% So, it's even more bizarre than that because the NFL had to deal with CBS, 485 00:22:13.564 --> 00:22:15.333 align:middle line:90% the AFL had to deal with NBC. 486 00:22:15.612 --> 00:22:18.196 align:middle line:90% This was simulcast on two networks. 487 00:22:18.419 --> 00:22:18.919 align:middle line:90% Huh. 488 00:22:18.919 --> 00:22:20.504 align:middle line:90% Which has not happened. [LAUGHS] 489 00:22:20.516 --> 00:22:21.016 align:middle line:90% Right. 490 00:22:21.016 --> 00:22:24.259 align:middle line:90% It was a wild thing in terms of just broadcasting. 491 00:22:24.573 --> 00:22:28.482 align:middle line:90% And yet, because it was 1967, and because at that point, 492 00:22:28.482 --> 00:22:33.396 align:middle line:90% people were not quite so concerned with posterity, over time, literally, 493 00:22:33.396 --> 00:22:35.121 align:middle line:90% like, the tapes got taped over. 494 00:22:35.506 --> 00:22:39.105 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] Like the old days of us, like, accidentally taping over a movie 495 00:22:39.105 --> 00:22:41.116 align:middle line:90% that we really wanted to hold on to. 496 00:22:41.141 --> 00:22:44.409 align:middle line:90% Yes. You taped over the finale of M*A*S*H with your kid's piano recital. 497 00:22:44.409 --> 00:22:45.470 align:middle line:90% Yeah, exactly. [LAUGHS] 498 00:22:45.470 --> 00:22:48.939 align:middle line:90% This literally happened to now the biggest media conglomerate 499 00:22:48.939 --> 00:22:50.889 align:middle line:90% in the world or in America. 500 00:22:50.889 --> 00:22:51.669 align:middle line:90% That's crazy. 501 00:22:51.763 --> 00:22:57.222 align:middle line:90% And so, it just was this mystery of, like, "Well, where can we watch it now?" 502 00:22:57.561 --> 00:22:59.999 align:middle line:90% Um, it turned out that a guy named Troy… 503 00:23:00.097 --> 00:23:00.597 align:middle line:90% [BOTH LAUGHING] 504 00:23:00.926 --> 00:23:04.387 align:middle line:90% in his own actual house, like, his dad had taped it. 505 00:23:04.787 --> 00:23:05.622 align:middle line:90% Wait, are you kidding me? 506 00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:09.594 align:middle line:90% A guy named Troy, yes, is a key character in this 507 00:23:09.594 --> 00:23:12.651 align:middle line:90% because he-- He's from Shamokin, Pennsylvania, 508 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:14.894 align:middle line:90% in his attic is a tape. 509 00:23:14.894 --> 00:23:17.155 align:middle line:90% It's a two-inch tape, which tells you how old it is. 510 00:23:17.239 --> 00:23:17.739 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 511 00:23:17.739 --> 00:23:22.153 align:middle line:90% And Troy calls the NFL and is like, "I have your tape. 512 00:23:22.153 --> 00:23:25.369 align:middle line:90% I have the Ark of the Covenant when it comes to sports broadcasting." 513 00:23:25.369 --> 00:23:26.688 align:middle line:90% "I've saved the Super Bowl." 514 00:23:27.058 --> 00:23:30.563 align:middle line:90% Yes, "I am the one who has provided you with your history. 515 00:23:30.563 --> 00:23:31.704 align:middle line:90% I've returned it to you. 516 00:23:32.243 --> 00:23:33.201 align:middle line:90% Let's work out a deal." 517 00:23:33.297 --> 00:23:33.797 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 518 00:23:33.797 --> 00:23:35.182 align:middle line:90% Right? Like, "What do I get?" 519 00:23:35.182 --> 00:23:36.285 align:middle line:90% Good job, Troy, yeah. 520 00:23:36.814 --> 00:23:42.506 align:middle line:90% And the NFL, um, offers him exactly $30,000. 521 00:23:42.735 --> 00:23:44.700 align:middle line:90% And it's just like, hold on. [LAUGHS] 522 00:23:44.828 --> 00:23:47.446 align:middle line:90% I bring you this tape, all I get is 30K? 523 00:23:47.446 --> 00:23:51.778 align:middle line:90% For the only, the only known footage of the first ever Super Bowl, 524 00:23:51.778 --> 00:23:52.904 align:middle line:90% that's what they're offering? 525 00:23:53.134 --> 00:23:55.388 align:middle line:90% If I'm Troy, I hope he didn't turn it over. 526 00:23:56.009 --> 00:24:01.835 align:middle line:90% Oh, I mean, the story goes on, but Troy, there's a legal drama 527 00:24:01.835 --> 00:24:06.257 align:middle line:90% that he pursues, there's litigation, and the tape ends up 528 00:24:06.425 --> 00:24:09.244 align:middle line:90% at the Paley Center in New York, a museum of media. 529 00:24:09.679 --> 00:24:12.692 align:middle line:90% Without spoiling too much, the only way to see it 530 00:24:13.371 --> 00:24:18.324 align:middle line:90% is if Troy grants individual permission to those who seek it. 531 00:24:18.344 --> 00:24:22.788 align:middle line:90% You have to, like, go visit at his altar and beseech him for access. 532 00:24:23.082 --> 00:24:23.676 align:middle line:90% I love that. 533 00:24:23.740 --> 00:24:25.601 align:middle line:90% I can't wait to listen to your episode. 534 00:24:25.601 --> 00:24:27.692 align:middle line:90% Um, well, let's talk about the king of everything 535 00:24:27.692 --> 00:24:28.803 align:middle line:90% that the Super Bowl is today. 536 00:24:29.317 --> 00:24:31.046 align:middle line:90% I'm going to acknowledge two things to you 537 00:24:31.046 --> 00:24:32.657 align:middle line:90% before I ask you about this Super Bowl. 538 00:24:33.071 --> 00:24:35.549 align:middle line:90% One, my wife's whole family is from Detroit, 539 00:24:35.549 --> 00:24:37.656 align:middle line:90% and I am devastated that the Lions are not there. 540 00:24:37.656 --> 00:24:39.417 align:middle line:90% I'm thrilled for 49ers fans. 541 00:24:39.417 --> 00:24:43.478 align:middle line:90% I think that the story of Brock Purdy and all the criticism he gets 542 00:24:43.478 --> 00:24:46.199 align:middle line:90% as a quarterback, the chance to win a championship is huge. 543 00:24:46.686 --> 00:24:48.753 align:middle line:90% I'm also going to admit this is the ugly side of me. 544 00:24:49.287 --> 00:24:54.204 align:middle line:90% As a lifelong Steelers fan, it brings me tremendous joy 545 00:24:54.204 --> 00:24:57.388 align:middle line:90% that the Ravens will not be enjoying this Super Bowl Sunday 546 00:24:57.388 --> 00:24:58.216 align:middle line:90% and playing in this game. 547 00:24:58.216 --> 00:25:02.732 align:middle line:90% Watching their pain, watching the pain of Baltimore fans persist 548 00:25:03.136 --> 00:25:06.250 align:middle line:90% at feeling left out, it's just a beautiful thing. Um… 549 00:25:06.635 --> 00:25:08.583 align:middle line:90% And we're gonna have more Travis-Taylor 550 00:25:08.583 --> 00:25:11.390 align:middle line:90% and Patrick Mahomes maybe being one of the greatest quarterbacks of… 551 00:25:11.756 --> 00:25:12.822 align:middle line:90% of all time before our eyes. 552 00:25:12.822 --> 00:25:15.178 align:middle line:90% Okay, now. But, but I'm here to ask you what you think. 553 00:25:15.178 --> 00:25:16.671 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] Those are my-- those are my first thoughts. 554 00:25:16.671 --> 00:25:21.627 align:middle line:90% No! My, my, my first thought is that the NFL is getting exactly what it wanted. 555 00:25:21.763 --> 00:25:22.279 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 556 00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:24.511 align:middle line:90% Which is to say the biggest name characters, 557 00:25:24.511 --> 00:25:27.443 align:middle line:90% all converging the most obvious storylines 558 00:25:27.443 --> 00:25:28.976 align:middle line:90% getting to be chewed on. 559 00:25:29.379 --> 00:25:33.998 align:middle line:90% It's just a story of Goliath to me, 560 00:25:34.123 --> 00:25:35.969 align:middle line:90% which is fitting, I guess, for our conversation, 561 00:25:35.969 --> 00:25:37.994 align:middle line:90% which is that the Kansas City Chiefs are now 562 00:25:38.213 --> 00:25:41.505 align:middle line:90% the team that you must default to picking 563 00:25:41.505 --> 00:25:44.477 align:middle line:90% from here on out to just be in this game, if not to win it outright. 564 00:25:44.497 --> 00:25:46.101 align:middle line:90% They've been in four of the last five. 565 00:25:46.378 --> 00:25:48.690 align:middle line:90% Patrick Mahomes, to your characterization, 566 00:25:49.010 --> 00:25:50.992 align:middle line:90% is fairly labeled 567 00:25:51.016 --> 00:25:53.998 align:middle line:90% the most talented quarterback anyone has ever seen, 568 00:25:53.998 --> 00:25:56.495 align:middle line:90% even if he hasn't won as much as Tom Brady just yet. 569 00:25:56.988 --> 00:25:59.545 align:middle line:90% Travis Kelce, America's prom king, we now know him very well. 570 00:25:59.545 --> 00:26:03.776 align:middle line:90% Andy Reid, this coach who has somehow gone 571 00:26:03.776 --> 00:26:07.012 align:middle line:90% from a guy who people laughed at when he was with the Eagles to now just, 572 00:26:07.012 --> 00:26:11.025 align:middle line:90% again, the guy who is piloting this monster against 573 00:26:11.025 --> 00:26:15.149 align:middle line:90% the San Francisco 49ers, who, to me, the Brock Purdy story. 574 00:26:15.510 --> 00:26:17.034 align:middle line:90% If you don't know him, he was the last pick 575 00:26:17.034 --> 00:26:20.111 align:middle line:90% in the NFL draft in 2022. He was Mr. Irrelevant. 576 00:26:20.111 --> 00:26:22.434 align:middle line:90% That's what we call him. The last guy to get drafted. 577 00:26:22.434 --> 00:26:23.923 align:middle line:90% Literally the last guy. 578 00:26:24.610 --> 00:26:27.302 align:middle line:90% And here he is stepping into this mech suit 579 00:26:27.302 --> 00:26:30.154 align:middle line:90% that is the 49ers offense and just like wrecking cities. 580 00:26:30.615 --> 00:26:32.554 align:middle line:90% He's been really, really impressive. 581 00:26:32.862 --> 00:26:35.318 align:middle line:90% And so it's a story about excess. 582 00:26:35.318 --> 00:26:37.801 align:middle line:90% It's a story about underdogs. 583 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.045 align:middle line:90% It's a story about Goliaths who can feel a little bit like David. 584 00:26:41.281 --> 00:26:43.426 align:middle line:90% Oh, I love that. That's very poetic. 585 00:26:43.446 --> 00:26:44.768 align:middle line:90% And I think that-- that feels right. 586 00:26:44.888 --> 00:26:45.789 align:middle line:90% So, it's going to be great. 587 00:26:45.789 --> 00:26:49.406 align:middle line:90% I mean, I say all this with all the-- I'm glad I've got the moral caveats aside 588 00:26:49.775 --> 00:26:54.041 align:middle line:90% because what this is going to be is a-- is a heavyweight title fight 589 00:26:54.134 --> 00:26:57.016 align:middle line:90% between the two best teams in the sport. 590 00:26:57.376 --> 00:26:59.430 align:middle line:90% That's where we wound up after all the mediocrity 591 00:26:59.430 --> 00:27:02.449 align:middle line:90% and the slog and the ethical conundrums is now we're going 592 00:27:02.469 --> 00:27:05.573 align:middle line:90% to get to watch best versus second best. 593 00:27:05.935 --> 00:27:07.495 align:middle line:90% And just to kind of come full circle, 594 00:27:07.495 --> 00:27:09.535 align:middle line:90% I mean, you say the NFL is getting everything they wanted. 595 00:27:09.610 --> 00:27:14.867 align:middle line:90% Do you think, have they made really shrewd decisions 596 00:27:14.979 --> 00:27:18.165 align:middle line:90% to come through some of these controversies and, you know, 597 00:27:18.295 --> 00:27:21.739 align:middle line:90% moral caveats as we said or is it more about just 598 00:27:22.041 --> 00:27:24.726 align:middle line:90% what football is, what role it plays in our culture 599 00:27:24.726 --> 00:27:29.240 align:middle line:90% that makes it seemingly impervious somehow to problems? 600 00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:30.877 align:middle line:90% Yeah, there's an episode of "The Simpsons" 601 00:27:30.877 --> 00:27:32.645 align:middle line:90% that's not about football but baseball. 602 00:27:32.703 --> 00:27:34.486 align:middle line:90% And in that episode of "The Simpsons," 603 00:27:34.788 --> 00:27:37.539 align:middle line:90% cartoon Mark McGwire asks an assembled crowd, 604 00:27:37.823 --> 00:27:41.519 align:middle line:90% "Do you want to know the horrible truth or do you want to see some dingers?" 605 00:27:41.628 --> 00:27:42.128 align:middle line:90% [GREENE LAUGHS] 606 00:27:42.128 --> 00:27:44.042 align:middle line:90% And everyone yells, "Dingers!" 607 00:27:44.042 --> 00:27:47.279 align:middle line:90% And so too is it with the entertainment of the NFL. 608 00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:50.981 align:middle line:90% Like, it's not clever what they've done in any way 609 00:27:51.670 --> 00:27:55.410 align:middle line:90% to mask and to address and to react 610 00:27:55.484 --> 00:28:02.763 align:middle line:90% to the criticisms of their business on this ethical and moral hazard level. 611 00:28:03.266 --> 00:28:06.327 align:middle line:90% It's simply that the product is so compelling. 612 00:28:06.890 --> 00:28:09.852 align:middle line:90% And when the game is so good, [LAUGHS] 613 00:28:09.917 --> 00:28:12.519 align:middle line:90% when the game is so good, you don't have to do a lot 614 00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:15.246 align:middle line:90% of strategizing on how to sell it. 615 00:28:15.554 --> 00:28:17.233 align:middle line:90% It kind of sells itself. 616 00:28:17.550 --> 00:28:21.849 align:middle line:90% And I think we're probably a little naïve as to the ways 617 00:28:21.849 --> 00:28:25.873 align:middle line:90% in which the thing we're hiding is actually the reason why we like it. 618 00:28:26.377 --> 00:28:28.495 align:middle line:90% And that's the conundrum all of us sort of reckon with 619 00:28:28.495 --> 00:28:30.684 align:middle line:90% when we sit down on our couch on a Sunday. 620 00:28:30.773 --> 00:28:32.479 align:middle line:90% Say that again. I think that's really important. 621 00:28:32.499 --> 00:28:34.639 align:middle line:90% The thing-- The thing we're hiding is… 622 00:28:35.185 --> 00:28:36.687 align:middle line:90% Is the thing that draws us to it. 623 00:28:37.023 --> 00:28:37.954 align:middle line:90% What-- say more. 624 00:28:38.094 --> 00:28:39.897 align:middle line:90% It's the thrill of danger. 625 00:28:40.198 --> 00:28:42.606 align:middle line:90% As much as you want to say we should make the game safer, 626 00:28:42.606 --> 00:28:45.115 align:middle line:90% we just, we should legislate 627 00:28:45.516 --> 00:28:48.951 align:middle line:90% out of existence all of these medical issues. 628 00:28:49.431 --> 00:28:54.496 align:middle line:90% The medical issues are the reason why this game has the drama, 629 00:28:54.656 --> 00:28:58.945 align:middle line:90% has the stakes, has this ability to make us not want to look away. 630 00:28:59.163 --> 00:29:00.838 align:middle line:90% There was a great study on this. 631 00:29:00.838 --> 00:29:02.873 align:middle line:90% How much action is there really in an NFL game? 632 00:29:03.063 --> 00:29:04.416 align:middle line:90% There's like less than 15 minutes. 633 00:29:04.416 --> 00:29:07.518 align:middle line:90% You compress it all into just like stuff happening on a field. 634 00:29:07.922 --> 00:29:13.107 align:middle line:90% But every second of those scarce minutes of action 635 00:29:13.268 --> 00:29:19.530 align:middle line:90% are honestly fraught with consequence and also conflict and also danger. 636 00:29:19.530 --> 00:29:23.181 align:middle line:90% And that's why we keep on having to watch all of it. 637 00:29:23.512 --> 00:29:26.866 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I think it's the violence and that level, but it's also for me, 638 00:29:26.866 --> 00:29:28.806 align:middle line:90% and I'm sure you have your own version of this, 639 00:29:28.806 --> 00:29:31.860 align:middle line:90% like, it's the… my fandom is a connection. 640 00:29:32.092 --> 00:29:34.162 align:middle line:90% It's a connection to my late mom. 641 00:29:34.162 --> 00:29:37.656 align:middle line:90% You know, we watched games together and, you know, shared terrible towels 642 00:29:37.656 --> 00:29:38.806 align:middle line:90% and wore jerseys. 643 00:29:38.806 --> 00:29:42.029 align:middle line:90% And it was so central to our relationship. 644 00:29:42.029 --> 00:29:44.028 align:middle line:90% And that's something I want to hold on to and my city. 645 00:29:44.028 --> 00:29:45.028 align:middle line:90% Yes. 646 00:29:45.028 --> 00:29:47.253 align:middle line:90% It's, like, I love Pittsburgh so much. 647 00:29:47.253 --> 00:29:50.137 align:middle line:90% I left years ago, but, like, that is, that is home. 648 00:29:50.137 --> 00:29:54.310 align:middle line:90% And, like, every time I'm watching a Steelers game on TV or in person, 649 00:29:54.310 --> 00:29:57.748 align:middle line:90% I feel like I have my community around me. 650 00:29:57.748 --> 00:30:01.321 align:middle line:90% We all sort of have this shared experience and history. 651 00:30:01.321 --> 00:30:03.781 align:middle line:90% We all sort of vibe in the same way. 652 00:30:03.781 --> 00:30:06.122 align:middle line:90% It's a love and respect for everything that Pittsburgh has been through. 653 00:30:06.122 --> 00:30:07.489 align:middle line:90% It's so deep for me. 654 00:30:07.489 --> 00:30:11.525 align:middle line:90% Yeah, and I should say that in some ways, the NFL is a throwback. 655 00:30:11.525 --> 00:30:13.983 align:middle line:90% Like in this era of individualism, social media, 656 00:30:13.983 --> 00:30:15.192 align:middle line:90% where we want characters, right? 657 00:30:15.192 --> 00:30:18.865 align:middle line:90% We want reality television-style protagonists 658 00:30:18.865 --> 00:30:21.659 align:middle line:90% to show us themselves, not just their face, 659 00:30:21.659 --> 00:30:24.696 align:middle line:90% but their shames and their humiliations. 660 00:30:24.853 --> 00:30:27.824 align:middle line:90% The NFL is a sport where people wear helmets 661 00:30:27.948 --> 00:30:30.229 align:middle line:90% and you don't really get to see faces. 662 00:30:30.503 --> 00:30:33.494 align:middle line:90% And when you talk to fans who've loved this generationally, 663 00:30:33.494 --> 00:30:34.958 align:middle line:90% who've inherited it like an heirloom 664 00:30:34.958 --> 00:30:37.923 align:middle line:90% from their parents and their ancestors now, 665 00:30:37.923 --> 00:30:41.586 align:middle line:90% it's because there is a tribalism around this team. 666 00:30:42.034 --> 00:30:43.203 align:middle line:90% It's that collective. 667 00:30:43.318 --> 00:30:45.742 align:middle line:90% And so I don't want to understate, it's a great point you brought up, 668 00:30:46.049 --> 00:30:50.380 align:middle line:90% I don't want to understate the collective aspect of the NFL. 669 00:30:50.745 --> 00:30:54.901 align:middle line:90% It's about the team and the city even more than the individuals 670 00:30:54.901 --> 00:30:55.861 align:middle line:90% that we love. 671 00:30:56.262 --> 00:31:02.046 align:middle line:90% And the team is the thing inside of which all of these moral conundrums, 672 00:31:02.046 --> 00:31:04.456 align:middle line:90% these guilty pleasures are housed because, you're right! 673 00:31:04.979 --> 00:31:08.704 align:middle line:90% Because we enjoyed those pleasures and those conundrums with others, 674 00:31:08.704 --> 00:31:11.032 align:middle line:90% especially the people we loved the most. 675 00:31:11.129 --> 00:31:11.629 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES IN] 676 00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:13.709 align:middle line:90% Pablo, this has been a great time. 677 00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:17.211 align:middle line:90% It was important to sort of grapple with this stuff as we then go 678 00:31:17.211 --> 00:31:20.143 align:middle line:90% and just spend a day watching a great football game. 679 00:31:20.542 --> 00:31:23.090 align:middle line:90% It's the American way. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. 680 00:31:26.578 --> 00:31:30.203 align:middle line:90% You can listen to "Pablo Torre Finds Out" on Apple Podcasts 681 00:31:30.203 --> 00:31:33.045 align:middle line:90% and we'll include a link for you on our show notes page. 682 00:31:36.696 --> 00:31:37.196 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT]