[MUSIC FADES IN]
David Greene, Narrating: This is "In Conversation" from Apple News.
I'm David Greene, filling in for Shumita Basu.
Today, a former elite gymnast, abused by Larry Nassar, speaks out.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
[SOLEMN MUSIC]
[START C-SPAN ARCHIVAL CLIP]
Maggie Nichols: Chair Durbin, Ranking Member Grassley,
and distinguished members of the Judiciary Committee,
thank you for inviting me to speak to you today.
[END C-SPAN ARCHIVAL CLIP]
Greene, Narrating: On September 15, 2021,
a young woman who had first been known in court filings as Athlete A
told her story to the Senate Judiciary Committee.
She was one of more than 300 survivors of sexual abuse
by former USA Gymnastics doctor Larry Nassar.
[START C-SPAN ARCHIVAL CLIP]
Maggie Nichols: I want everyone to know
that this did not happen to Gymnast Two or to Athlete A.
It happened to me, Maggie Nichols.
[END C-SPAN ARCHIVAL CLIP]
Greene, Narrating: Maggie Nichols was the first athlete on the national team
to report Larry Nassar's sexual abuse to USA Gymnastics in June of 2015.
That day before the Senate, Maggie, along with three of her former teammates,
Simone Biles, Aly Raisman, and McKayla Maroney,
told lawmakers about the horrors they suffered
and about the FBI's failures in investigating Larry Nassar.
[START C-SPAN ARCHIVAL CLIP]
Maggie Nichols: We now know there was no real FBI investigation occurring.
While my complaints with the FBI,
Larry Nassar continued to abuse women and girls.
During this time,
the FBI issued no search warrants and made no arrests.
[END C-SPAN ARCHIVAL CLIP]
Greene, Narrating: Because of the bravery of these young women and others like them,
Larry Nassar is in prison.
But even now, several years later, with the Paris Olympics just months away,
USA Gymnastics has yet to fully recover.
Maggie is out now with a memoir called "Unstoppable"
that recounts her experience coming forward to USA Gymnastics in 2015
and then not being selected for the 2016 Olympic team.
But her story begins when, at just three years old,
she fell in love with gymnastics.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Maggie Nichols: I was a crazy little kid.
Um, I had three older brothers,
and I was always trying to do what they were doing at the young age,
and climbing on furniture, climbing out of my crib,
climbing over the fence before I could walk.
[GREENE LAUGHS]
So, they were like, we need to do something with this girl…
Greene: Yeah.
Maggie Nichols: …before she hurts herself.
So, they put me in gymnastics with my brother,
and I absolutely loved it from the second I started.
I wanted to take as many turns as I possibly could,
even at the age of three.
I wanted to do all the fun tricks and flips that you're doing at that age.
And even when I wasn't in the gym,
I was out on the grass doing gymnastics, flipping around, doing crazy stuff.
So, I absolutely loved the sport ever since I started.
Greene: What do you remember about your, your goals now,
like in terms of what you wanted to get out of gymnastics?
Maggie Nichols: From the earliest age, um, I think I was about six or seven,
I was watching the 2004 Olympics,
and I watched Carly Patterson win the all-around gold medal.
And I was like, "I'm going to be Carly Patterson.
I'm going to do what she's doing."
And so, I think as I got older, that goal kind of stayed the same
of going to the Olympics and, um, you know, making it to national team.
So, I always had goals.
I'm a big goal setter, so that's kind of when that started.
[INTRIGUING MUSIC]
Greene, Narrating: Maggie became an elite-level gymnast by the age of 13.
A year later, she made it onto the U.S. National Team.
And that's when she started training at the famous Károlyi Ranch,
the USA Gymnastics national training facility at the time.
Maggie Nichols: Being invited to the Károlyi Ranch, I was over the moon.
I mean, that is where champions train, Olympians are made.
So, I was so excited to go
and to be surrounded by such amazing gymnasts.
Greene, Narrating: The ranch was run by Béla and Márta Károlyi,
legendary coordinators and coaches of the national team,
two people known for their harsh and punishing coaching philosophy.
Maggie, who was 14 at the time, quickly realized just how cut off
from the rest of the world the Károlyi Ranch was.
Maggie Nichols: It is in, like, a very isolated part of Texas.
Um, the cell service is really not good there.
I didn't have barely any service at all to call my parents.
So, that was a bit difficult.
Greene, Narrating: It was also around this time that people like Márta Károlyi
started making comments about Maggie's weight.
Maggie Nichols: They brought up my body and how I needed to get leaner
and, you know, lose weight.
So, that's when I started seeing a trainer,
and I also was given a nutrition plan.
And it would say on there, like, no added carbs,
so that would mean, like, no vegetables.
So, I would literally wake up, I think I would eat egg whites,
and then I would have, like, chicken breast for lunch and dinner.
I followed that nutrition plan to a T.
I would measure everything so perfectly because I wanted to look the part.
I wanted to show everybody that I want to be the best.
And so, I followed that plan, and I was disciplined with it
because I thought that's what was gonna make me a champion.
Greene, Narrating: Maggie lost a ton of weight.
She got smaller than she had ever been,
but she was constantly hungry and lacked the energy
an elite athlete needs to train, compete, and keep her body safe.
She told me about one particularly bad injury.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Maggie Nichols: That was in 2014,
and it was our third rotation of the competition.
It was the team final.
And I landed my last pass, and while I landed,
my left kneecap dislocated.
And I finished the routine, finished the pose,
and we still had one more rotation after that.
And I, I don't know what was going through my head,
but I was like, I'm finishing the meet.
Like, I'm not letting this stop me.
I'm not gonna show that I am gonna back down.
I'm gonna help the team win the gold medal.
And so, my kneecap dislocated, popped back into place,
and I ended up doing vault.
I competed a prominent leg event after I dislocated my kneecap.
And, um, once I landed, I barely could even walk.
I had to be flown home for an MRI
and then ultimately got another big knee surgery
where they put a cadaver ligament in my knee.
But like, when I look back at that injury, I just…
I can't even believe that I did that.
I can't believe I did another event after I hurt myself that badly.
But I just truly always wanted to give my best to Team USA
and help them, you know, win gold medals.
Greene, Narrating: It was after an injury that Maggie was first abused by Larry Nassar.
Maggie Nichols: I was at a World selection camp, which was at the Károlyi Ranch.
And I actually threw my back out.
And I was, like, barely able to touch my toes.
And obviously, when you have that pain, you can't perform at your highest level.
And so, I was treated by Larry.
And brought me into the training room, closed the blinds,
and performed his quote unquote "treatment."
And I was, like, so uncomfortable, obviously.
And I'm so young at this point.
And it was just the absolute worst experience
of my entire life.
And we were always told that, you know, Larry's the best doctor,
he's the best U.S.A. doctor, um, to trust him,
to trust what he's doing, he's gonna help you feel better.
But that's just not the truth at all,
and it was the absolute worst experience of my life.
Greene: Obviously, I, I can't imagine,
and I'm so sorry that you've gone through that horror.
Um, so, you're how old at this point?
Maggie Nichols: Yeah, I was like 15. Yeah, so young.
Greene: You're the first athlete on the national team
to report to USA Gymnastics what Larry Nassar was doing.
And that was in 2015.
Maggie Nichols: Mm-hmm.
Greene: And then, you, you keep competing.
I mean, in the course of, of the following year
after, you know, you knew this was reported,
your parents knew this had been reported to USA Gymnastics.
You keep competing and, and actually reach the Olympic Trials
the, the following year, even though you had more injuries.
What was that year like in terms of, of what you had experienced,
but also still wanting to fulfill your dream of, of getting to the Olympics?
Maggie Nichols: Yeah, um, it was a lot.
In 2015, I really had my breakout year
and had probably the best year of my gymnastics career.
I made the World Championship team
after that huge knee surgery that I had in 2014.
We won the team gold as a team,
and then I won the bronze on floor exercise.
So, I was so proud of myself for making it to Worlds
and to, you know, get two medals and to help the team win the gold medal.
And then after 2015, having, you know, being at my peak,
[SIGHS] I qualified to another international competition
called the Pac Rim Championships,
and it was the day before we were traveling,
um, I was doing vault, and landed,
hurt my other knee, tore something in my other knee,
um, again, had to be flown home.
Surgery again.
Um, and this was in the beginning of 2016.
So, not too far away from Olympic Trials.
And that was probably one of the worst things
that could have happened at that point.
Um, you know, had to get another surgery, had to take some more time off.
But you know, that still, that goal was to, you know,
make it to Olympic Trials, make the Olympic team.
So, I did everything I possibly could to get as strong as I possibly could get.
But, again, I was so fixated on being small
and getting to the lowest weight that I could.
So, I would only eat broccoli. It was just the craziest thing.
I don't know. But in my head, I was like, "This is what's gonna help me."
And so, I would literally only eat broccoli before practice,
and then I'd go to practice and this and that.
But that year was a lot for me.
Again, the injury really brought me down.
And then also, the Larry stuff in the back of my mind,
wondering what's going on.
Ultimately, it was a very challenging year.
I made it to Olympic Trials, placed sixth in the all-around,
um, didn't quite make the Olympic Team or an alternate spot,
but really thankful I got the opportunity to compete there and live out that dream.
Greene: As you were approaching the Olympic Trials,
um, you wrote about that you and your parents were getting the feeling
that you were being treated differently after, you know,
being the first athlete to report Larry Nassar.
What, what, what did, what was that feeling?
What, what was happening that made you feel like something was up?
Maggie Nichols: Yeah. So, like, at Olympic Trials,
Márta wasn't really giving me much attention.
Greene: Márta Károlyi. She, she's like the…
Maggie Nichols: Márta Károlyi.
Greene: …the legendary, uh, head of everything, it sounds like.
Maggie Nichols: USA, yeah. Márta and Béla. Yes.
Um, so, like at Olympic Trials,
she wasn't really watching a lot of my gymnastics
or talking to me and my coach,
which usually she would because I was on the U.S.A. National Team.
Obviously, just won that World Championship with the team.
So, I thought things were weird, and so did my coach.
And I know I just had that knee injury, but I was still there,
and I was still doing all of my skills that I was doing at World Championships,
other than my Amânar on vault.
So, I was kind of a little bit concerned about that.
But again, I just tried to brush it off and to do my training.
Greene: Do you connect the change in, in how you were being treated
to the fact that you had come forward, um, and that the Károlyis
and, you know, Steve Penny, who, who had headed USA Gymnastics,
like they all knew that you had, had reported Larry Nassar?
Maggie Nichols: Um, you know, I, I hope they made the decisions
based on the right reasons.
But, I mean, it is hard to think about that.
That could be a huge reason of why certain things happened.
Greene: So, one of those things was you, you didn't make the Olympics,
even though your performance at the trials seemed pretty solid,
that you, you…
Well, it seemed like you should have been at least an alternate. Um…
Maggie Nichols: Mm-hmm.
Greene: What was that moment like when your name wasn't announced?
Maggie Nichols: So, I place sixth in the all-around, and five girls go,
and then I think it's two or three alternates.
And we were in that room with the whole national team,
everyone who just competed, coaches, and then obviously the national staff.
And when they walked in, I was… I just had a great performance.
My second day of competition was great.
I was so excited and felt like I would, you know,
make it at least as an alternate or as an alternate.
And when they announced all the names and my name wasn't, you know,
said out loud for an alternate spot or anything,
I honestly, I don't even know.
I was-- felt so many different emotions. I felt, you know, sad.
I mean, my dream of going to the Olympics was over at that point.
It was definitely a very hard moment.
I mean, you work your whole life for something,
and then it's over in like five seconds.
[CONTEMPLATIVE MUSIC]
Greene, Narrating: After that disappointment,
Maggie knew almost immediately what she wanted to do next.
She had already committed to the University of Oklahoma
to join their gymnastics team.
But originally,
she had planned to defer a semester before beginning school.
Maggie Nichols: I think it was like the week after not making the Olympic team,
I called K.J., the head coach of Oklahoma, and I asked her if I could come now,
[CHUCKLES] um, and not defer a semester,
and that was probably the best decision I ever made.
I went in August of 2016,
so like a month or so after Olympic Trials,
and started my new journey there.
Greene, Narrating: Maggie felt immediately welcomed onto the campus and the team
when she arrived.
It was such a different environment
than what she had experienced at the Károlyi Ranch.
And she ultimately went on to become one of the best collegiate gymnasts ever,
winning two team championships and six individual championship titles.
Maggie Nichols: A few of my favorite memories of my whole life so far
is being at NCAA Championships with my team
and taking home that big trophy.
It was, like, the best.
Greene, Narrating: But as her career was getting started at Oklahoma in September of 2016,
Larry Nassar's abuse was made known to the public
by the local newspaper "The Indianapolis Star."
When the story broke, 15 months had passed
since Maggie first reported Nassar to USA Gymnastics.
And in that time, Nassar allegedly sexually abused
at least 70 or more young athletes.
Nassar was ultimately arrested, tried, and convicted.
Throughout the state and federal trials, Maggie was known as Athlete A.
A few days before Nassar was set to be sentenced in state court
in January of 2018, she decided to go public.
Maggie Nichols: When other girls were coming out publicly, it empowered me,
and it, it helped me, and it helped me feel not alone.
And so, I felt like if I came out publicly,
it would help somebody else and empower other people,
and I am glad that I did.
I feel like it helped a lot of other people.
And it ultimately helped me as well
because I had a lot of support and a lot of people reach out.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Greene, Narrating: At Nassar's sentencing hearing,
survivors of his abuse were allowed to give victim impact statements.
Maggie's mom read a statement on her behalf.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
[START WDIV ARCHIVAL CLIP]
Gina Nichols: "He didn't tell me what he was doing, and there was no one else in the room.
And I accepted what he was doing
because I was told by the adults in charge at the U.S. Olympic Training Center
that I should receive help from him."
[END WDIV ARCHIVAL CLIP]
Greene, Narrating: Maggie's mom also gave her own statement.
[START WDIV ARCHIVAL CLIP]
Gina Nichols: My daughter was at the Olympic Training Center
one week a month for years.
We sent a child across the country to train,
to try and make-- to be on the U.S.A. team and represent our country.
A child.
And she was not protected whatsoever.
[END WDIV ARCHIVAL CLIP]
[PENSIVE MUSIC]
Greene, Narrating: In the wake of Nassar's abuse coming to light,
some major changes were made at USA Gymnastics.
The entire board of directors was forced out,
and USAG named a new CEO and President in 2019.
The organization also overhauled its leadership structure,
which included bringing former gymnasts into leadership positions.
But some argue, there hasn't been sufficient accountability.
In a scathing report, the U.S. Inspector General found
that the FBI, quote,
"failed to respond to the Nassar allegations
with the utmost seriousness and urgency that they deserved and required,
made numerous and fundamental errors when they did respond to them,
and violated multiple FBI policies." End quote.
Two United States Olympic & Paralympic Committee officials
stepped down from their positions,
but criminal charges have never been brought against them
or any official there.
Charges were brought against the former USAG CEO and President
as well as a USAG trainer,
but those charges were eventually dropped.
As for Márta and Béla Károlyi,
they eventually sold their ranch and left the country.
Their whereabouts are currently unknown.
And they were never charged with a crime.
I asked Maggie what justice looks like for her today.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]
Maggie Nichols: You know, when I think about that and how they hid it for so long
and how so many other athletes were abused after we reported it,
it's scary, it's heartbreaking, it's horrible, disgusting.
It's just scary to even think about that happened,
and the accountability was just not there.
I mean, we were told that everything was being taken care of,
that, "Don't worry. We're taking care of it," this and that,
and nothing was being taken care of behind the scenes,
and so many other athletes were being abused.
And it's just really horrible.
So, I think continuing to talk about it, continuing to educate people
will help that issue and to help it never happen again,
and holding everybody accountable.
Greene: Yeah, I wonder about the culture in USA Gymnastics.
Um, a fellow elite gymnast, Jennifer Sey,
who was part of the Netflix documentary, "Athlete A,"
that was about you and this whole story, you know,
she seemed to suggest that there are so many other different kinds of abuse,
or there were.
I mean, thinking about just the strict regimens
that we talked about and, and the food and the dieting
and, and everything,
that it almost lays the foundation for something like sexual abuse
to be harder to seem extraordinary.
Is that the world that you feel you experienced?
Maggie Nichols: I mean, every athlete is so different.
Yeah, I definitely think that gymnastics is taking steps in the right direction.
I believe, and I pray, that, you know, they are continuing to make that change,
that nothing like this ever happens again,
and that the athletes are in safe environments,
and there's always a trusted adult with the athlete
during physical therapy, doctor's appointments,
but also making it a more positive environment
with body image,
educating the athletes on what food is fuel,
what food is going to make them the strongest
so they compete at the optimal level, have the most energy,
and just feel their absolute best to prevent injury
and to compete at their best level.
So, I think I think it's going in the right direction,
but I truly believe that there are things that we need to continue to talk about,
continue to educate on.
Greene: You wrote something that really stuck with me in the book.
You said, "If I was meant to call out Larry Nassar
more than I was meant to be ranked internationally as an all-around-er,
I'm okay with that."
How did you get to that place?
I mean, after fighting for so many years
to be an Olympian and kind of what you went through,
like, how have you found peace in that sort of way?
Maggie Nichols: Just because it was the right thing,
and so many people were being abused by him.
And if I wouldn't have said anything,
who knows what would be happening right now
and who knows how many other people would be abused by him.
And so, I believe that I did the right thing.
And I'm thankful that I spoke up and said something.
I just believe that I did the right thing, and I'm glad that I did.
Greene: You use the term "role model" in your book.
Tell me more about the role model you feel like you want to be.
Maggie Nichols: I just hope that gymnasts or other athletes,
no matter what age, look up to me for many different reasons.
Obviously, my story was a lot of ups and a lot of downs.
I went through so many injuries.
I feel like a big part of my story
is overcoming obstacles with a positive outlook
and never giving up on your dreams
because your resilience is so much stronger
than you truly think it is.
So, I hope people look up to me for that.
And then, also, just look up to me for being an advocate for others
and for showing strength in hard situations.
Greene: And what's next for Maggie Nichols in the next five years or so?
Maggie Nichols: Uh, lots.
Um, so I'm a certified personal trainer.
And so, I have an online app
that I add workout programs and workouts to.
So, I'm really passionate about that.
So, hoping to grow that in the next couple of years.
And then, I also have a competition series that I have around the U.S.
called the We Are Strong with Maggie Nichols.
And along with that competition,
I have my non-profit organization called the Maggie Nichols Foundation,
which supports victims of all types of abuse.
So, hoping to continue that
and I guess to see where the wind blows me after that. [LAUGHS]
Greene: And what's your relationship like to gymnastics today?
Maggie Nichols: My relationship with gymnastics is great.
I know that what has happened to me,
all the dark times happened with the sport of gymnastics,
but gymnastics is such a beautiful sport.
It grows athletes into such strong and resilient people.
And so, gymnastics was kind of always like my outlet,
being able to train, being able to reach towards my goals
and train with my teammates kind of helped me during those hard times.
So, I love the sport of gymnastics. I love watching it.
I love, you know, supporting all the gymnasts now.
And I have that gymnastics competition,
so I love going to those and making it a very positive environment
and helping the girls become the best athletes that they possibly can.
[MUSIC FADES IN]
Greene: Maggie, thank you so much for taking the time to share your story
and your reflections on all of this.
Really great talking to you.
Maggie Nichols: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
Greene, Narrating: You can read Maggie Nichols' book, "Unstoppable," on Apple Books.
And we'll include a link for you on our show notes page.
And if you or someone you know is experiencing sexual violence,
please call the National Sexual Assault Hotline
at 800-656-HOPE.
That's 800-656-4673.
[MUSIC FADES OUT]