WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.654 --> 00:00:01.154 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES IN] 2 00:00:04.196 --> 00:00:08.119 align:middle line:90% This is "In Conversation" from Apple News. I'm Brian Stelter, 3 00:00:08.130 --> 00:00:12.640 align:middle line:90% filling in for Shumita Basu. Today, everything you need to know 4 00:00:12.817 --> 00:00:14.600 align:middle line:90% about Trump's criminal trials. 5 00:00:15.650 --> 00:00:16.150 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 6 00:00:19.946 --> 00:00:20.446 align:middle line:90% [SOFT MUSIC] 7 00:00:21.696 --> 00:00:25.799 align:middle line:90% Donald Trump is the first U.S. president to face criminal charges: 8 00:00:26.222 --> 00:00:30.829 align:middle line:90% 91 counts in four cases. He has denied wrongdoing 9 00:00:31.046 --> 00:00:32.880 align:middle line:90% and pleaded not guilty to all counts. 10 00:00:32.977 --> 00:00:36.400 align:middle line:90% This is just a totally unprecedented moment in American history. 11 00:00:36.475 --> 00:00:38.409 align:middle line:90% That's "NPR's" Scott Detrow. 12 00:00:38.556 --> 00:00:41.919 align:middle line:90% How will voters absorb that? How much will it matter? 13 00:00:42.048 --> 00:00:46.200 align:middle line:90% What happens if you're having a criminal trial, you know, nine to five, 14 00:00:46.295 --> 00:00:49.255 align:middle line:90% and then in the evening trying to campaign for president at the same time? 15 00:00:49.264 --> 00:00:50.724 align:middle line:90% There are just so many questions here. 16 00:00:51.094 --> 00:00:55.014 align:middle line:90% Scott is hosting a new podcast for "NPR" called "Trump's Trials." 17 00:00:55.429 --> 00:00:58.805 align:middle line:90% My other guest this week is Karen Tumulty, political columnist 18 00:00:58.814 --> 00:00:59.627 align:middle line:90% at "The Washington Post." 19 00:01:00.179 --> 00:01:05.830 align:middle line:90% There is just so much of it that people understandably 20 00:01:05.927 --> 00:01:09.855 align:middle line:90% are going to have trouble sort of sorting out which here 21 00:01:09.864 --> 00:01:15.394 align:middle line:90% is the most significant. It's just so much going on at one time. 22 00:01:16.370 --> 00:01:19.889 align:middle line:90% Two of the cases are state cases. The other two are federal. 23 00:01:20.322 --> 00:01:24.889 align:middle line:90% Let's start with the one coming up first, the so-called "hush money" case in New York. 24 00:01:24.889 --> 00:01:25.389 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 25 00:01:27.125 --> 00:01:27.625 align:middle line:90% [INTRIGUING MUSIC] 26 00:01:27.625 --> 00:01:30.503 align:middle line:90% This first case looks back at the 2016 election… 27 00:01:30.503 --> 00:01:31.003 align:middle line:90% [START ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 28 00:01:31.003 --> 00:01:33.967 align:middle line:90% A story broke about the President of the United States' 29 00:01:33.967 --> 00:01:37.577 align:middle line:90% alleged involvement with a payment to an adult film actress. 30 00:01:37.577 --> 00:01:38.077 align:middle line:90% [END ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 31 00:01:38.077 --> 00:01:41.981 align:middle line:90% …when Trump allegedly paid his then-lawyer and fixer Michael Cohen 32 00:01:41.981 --> 00:01:43.069 align:middle line:90% to silence a story. 33 00:01:43.069 --> 00:01:43.569 align:middle line:90% [START ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 34 00:01:43.569 --> 00:01:49.133 align:middle line:90% Michael Cohen had arranged $130,000 to Stormy Daniels to prevent her 35 00:01:49.133 --> 00:01:51.283 align:middle line:90% from speaking about the alleged sexual encounter. 36 00:01:51.283 --> 00:01:51.783 align:middle line:90% [END ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 37 00:01:51.783 --> 00:01:54.365 align:middle line:90% Stormy Daniels, whose real name is Stephanie Clifford, 38 00:01:54.365 --> 00:01:58.056 align:middle line:90% is an adult film star. She alleges the sexual encounter with Trump 39 00:01:58.056 --> 00:02:01.465 align:middle line:90% took place in 2006. Clifford told her story to "60 40 00:02:01.465 --> 00:02:03.825 align:middle line:90% Minutes Australia" back in 2018. 41 00:02:03.825 --> 00:02:05.666 align:middle line:90% Why did you have sex with him? 42 00:02:05.666 --> 00:02:06.879 align:middle line:90% I have no idea. 43 00:02:07.174 --> 00:02:08.247 align:middle line:90% Even after all this time? 44 00:02:08.247 --> 00:02:11.250 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I have no idea. Either I was in the right place 45 00:02:11.259 --> 00:02:13.630 align:middle line:90% at the right time, or I was [CHUCKLING] in the wrong place 46 00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:17.800 align:middle line:90% at the wrong time, and my opinion of that changes about every 20 minutes. 47 00:02:18.176 --> 00:02:21.403 align:middle line:90% Along with Clifford, Trump has also been accused of paying off 48 00:02:21.403 --> 00:02:24.820 align:middle line:90% a former "Playboy" model who alleged she had an affair with him, 49 00:02:24.992 --> 00:02:28.960 align:middle line:90% as well as a doorman at Trump Tower, who claimed to have a story about 50 00:02:28.970 --> 00:02:32.940 align:middle line:90% Trump having a child out of wedlock. Trump has denied all of this. 51 00:02:33.951 --> 00:02:37.729 align:middle line:90% Now, compensating someone in exchange for a nondisclosure agreement 52 00:02:38.023 --> 00:02:43.250 align:middle line:90% is not necessarily illegal. Trump is in hot water for the accounting 53 00:02:43.411 --> 00:02:47.889 align:middle line:90% of these payments. He's accused of disguising them as legal expenses 54 00:02:48.019 --> 00:02:51.100 align:middle line:90% to protect his political image. Trump was indicted by 55 00:02:51.110 --> 00:02:55.500 align:middle line:90% Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg last March and charged with 34 counts 56 00:02:55.509 --> 00:02:57.429 align:middle line:90% of falsifying business records. 57 00:02:57.692 --> 00:02:58.192 align:middle line:90% [START ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 58 00:02:58.192 --> 00:03:00.779 align:middle line:90% Less than two weeks before the presidential election, 59 00:03:00.779 --> 00:03:05.686 align:middle line:90% Michael Cohen wired $130,000 to Stormy Daniels' lawyer. 60 00:03:05.686 --> 00:03:06.186 align:middle line:90% [END ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 61 00:03:06.186 --> 00:03:09.204 align:middle line:90% Prosecutors say covering up the alleged affairs amounts to 62 00:03:09.204 --> 00:03:13.114 align:middle line:90% an illegal conspiracy to undermine the integrity of the 2016 election. 63 00:03:13.173 --> 00:03:13.673 align:middle line:90% [START ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 64 00:03:13.673 --> 00:03:16.639 align:middle line:90% That payment was to hide damaging information 65 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:21.891 align:middle line:90% from the voting public. The participant scheme was illegal. 66 00:03:22.549 --> 00:03:27.529 align:middle line:90% The scheme violated New York election law, which makes it a crime to conspire 67 00:03:27.776 --> 00:03:30.600 align:middle line:90% to promote a candidacy by unlawful means. 68 00:03:30.600 --> 00:03:31.100 align:middle line:90% [END ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 69 00:03:31.100 --> 00:03:33.489 align:middle line:90% And according to Trump's former lawyer, Michael Cohen, 70 00:03:33.497 --> 00:03:35.940 align:middle line:90% Trump was directly responsible for the payments. 71 00:03:36.020 --> 00:03:36.520 align:middle line:90% [START ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 72 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:40.149 align:middle line:90% Mr. Trump directed me to use my own personal funds 73 00:03:40.149 --> 00:03:45.682 align:middle line:90% from a home equity line of credit to avoid any money being traced 74 00:03:45.682 --> 00:03:49.552 align:middle line:90% back to him that could negatively impact his campaign. 75 00:03:49.552 --> 00:03:50.052 align:middle line:90% [END ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 76 00:03:50.052 --> 00:03:52.387 align:middle line:90% That's Cohen testifying to Congress a few years ago. 77 00:03:52.387 --> 00:03:52.887 align:middle line:90% [START ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 78 00:03:52.887 --> 00:03:59.637 align:middle line:90% I am providing a copy of a $35,000 check that President Trump personally signed 79 00:03:59.637 --> 00:04:04.497 align:middle line:90% from his personal bank account on August 1st of 2017, 80 00:04:04.497 --> 00:04:07.688 align:middle line:90% when he was President of the United States, 81 00:04:08.007 --> 00:04:11.679 align:middle line:90% pursuant to the cover-up, to reimburse me. 82 00:04:11.679 --> 00:04:12.179 align:middle line:90% [END ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 83 00:04:12.179 --> 00:04:15.940 align:middle line:90% Michael Cohen was also charged. He pleaded guilty to tax evasion, 84 00:04:15.940 --> 00:04:19.548 align:middle line:90% among other charges, in 2018 and served a 3-year sentence, 85 00:04:19.590 --> 00:04:24.899 align:middle line:90% mostly in home confinement. Now, Trump's trial is set to begin March 25th. 86 00:04:26.023 --> 00:04:29.450 align:middle line:90% I asked Karen what we can expect his defense team to say. 87 00:04:29.450 --> 00:04:29.950 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 88 00:04:30.190 --> 00:04:34.260 align:middle line:90% So what they are going to say is that another citizen 89 00:04:34.269 --> 00:04:40.660 align:middle line:90% in similar circumstances would not face as many charges as he is 90 00:04:40.670 --> 00:04:42.649 align:middle line:90% for the exact same act. 91 00:04:42.881 --> 00:04:43.381 align:middle line:90% Mm. 92 00:04:43.381 --> 00:04:47.144 align:middle line:90% And I think that, you know, a lot of legal experts say 93 00:04:47.144 --> 00:04:51.744 align:middle line:90% that the D.A. in Manhattan is kind of reaching on this. At one point, 94 00:04:51.744 --> 00:04:55.434 align:middle line:90% somebody was referring it, to it as the runt of the litter. 95 00:04:55.434 --> 00:04:55.934 align:middle line:90% [BRIAN STELTER LAUGHS] 96 00:04:56.107 --> 00:05:01.890 align:middle line:90% And I think a lot of voters may think, you know, this among the many, many issues 97 00:05:01.973 --> 00:05:05.489 align:middle line:90% being raised is the one that matters the least. 98 00:05:05.612 --> 00:05:06.790 align:middle line:90% Scott, what do you think? 99 00:05:06.943 --> 00:05:10.329 align:middle line:90% I, I think the allegations themselves are pretty straightforward. 100 00:05:10.339 --> 00:05:14.046 align:middle line:90% And there seems to be a lot of evidence for them. But what Karen raised though is, 101 00:05:14.046 --> 00:05:17.760 align:middle line:90% is this something that would typically be prosecuted as a felony 102 00:05:17.769 --> 00:05:22.170 align:middle line:90% in a criminal courtroom? I do think it's fair to say the answer is often no, 103 00:05:22.195 --> 00:05:24.945 align:middle line:90% but Alvin Bragg made a pretty forceful argument as to why 104 00:05:24.954 --> 00:05:27.795 align:middle line:90% he was moving forward with this case. Like, no, no, you can't just ignore 105 00:05:27.804 --> 00:05:29.894 align:middle line:90% these business practices. You can't just ignore the fact 106 00:05:29.904 --> 00:05:32.994 align:middle line:90% that somebody had all of these key disclosures of information 107 00:05:33.005 --> 00:05:34.265 align:middle line:90% in the final days of an election. 108 00:05:34.687 --> 00:05:37.355 align:middle line:90% Prosecutors recently asked the judge overseeing this case 109 00:05:37.364 --> 00:05:40.665 align:middle line:90% for a gag order, uh, to prohibit Trump from attacking witnesses 110 00:05:40.804 --> 00:05:43.945 align:middle line:90% or exposing juror identities once the jury is seated. 111 00:05:44.227 --> 00:05:47.325 align:middle line:90% Prosecutors in other Trump cases have also asked for and been granted 112 00:05:47.334 --> 00:05:52.290 align:middle line:90% similar orders. Karen, this speaks to the role of threats and intimidation 113 00:05:52.523 --> 00:05:56.540 align:middle line:90% that we've seen time and time again. People who, uh, are up against Trump, 114 00:05:56.549 --> 00:06:00.869 align:middle line:90% who are critical, who are challenging him in court, they face real dangers. 115 00:06:01.016 --> 00:06:04.179 align:middle line:90% You're right, we've seen this over and over and over again. I mean, 116 00:06:04.190 --> 00:06:12.529 align:middle line:90% people who literally fear for their lives. And so, Trump, he has been so unrestrained 117 00:06:12.540 --> 00:06:17.855 align:middle line:90% in so many other settings that you've got to wonder whether people 118 00:06:17.864 --> 00:06:20.505 align:middle line:90% are going to be willing to do their civic duty, uh, 119 00:06:20.515 --> 00:06:25.169 align:middle line:90% sitting on these juries, just as a lot of people are going to be reluctant 120 00:06:25.169 --> 00:06:28.252 align:middle line:90% to be election workers this year. It's… 121 00:06:28.252 --> 00:06:28.752 align:middle line:90% Mm-hmm. 122 00:06:28.752 --> 00:06:33.389 align:middle line:90% …it's just such a different environment than we have ever seen. And it's 123 00:06:33.389 --> 00:06:38.229 align:middle line:90% the power of Trump as a public figure, but it's also the power of social media 124 00:06:38.229 --> 00:06:40.599 align:middle line:90% and what it's capable of unleashing. 125 00:06:40.599 --> 00:06:44.078 align:middle line:90% Mm. Just to play out this courtroom timing a little bit. 126 00:06:44.277 --> 00:06:47.709 align:middle line:90% The trial, if it starts on March 25th, it'll likely take about six weeks. 127 00:06:48.003 --> 00:06:50.009 align:middle line:90% That puts us into May. Trump's… 128 00:06:50.009 --> 00:06:50.509 align:middle line:90% Mm-hmm. 129 00:06:50.509 --> 00:06:53.434 align:middle line:90% …already the presumptive nominee. We talked about this on the show last 130 00:06:53.434 --> 00:06:56.805 align:middle line:90% week. I'm curious what you've heard from voters or, or what experts say 131 00:06:56.805 --> 00:07:00.215 align:middle line:90% about the electability of an indicted Trump. So let's say 132 00:07:00.215 --> 00:07:03.574 align:middle line:90% it's May, Scott, and he has been found guilty in the New York 133 00:07:03.574 --> 00:07:07.294 align:middle line:90% hush money case. How much does the timing matter for this campaign? 134 00:07:07.324 --> 00:07:09.839 align:middle line:90% I think the timing matters a lot, and I do think that, you know, 135 00:07:09.850 --> 00:07:13.220 align:middle line:90% Trump's legal team's overarching goal has been to delay these cases, 136 00:07:13.230 --> 00:07:16.980 align:middle line:90% especially the federal cases. But I think we have seen a split screen here. 137 00:07:16.989 --> 00:07:22.760 align:middle line:90% We have seen these charges against him help Trump in the Republican primary. 138 00:07:22.897 --> 00:07:26.549 align:middle line:90% Uh, Ron DeSantis talked about this a lot, saying that he thought it was much more 139 00:07:26.559 --> 00:07:29.959 align:middle line:90% of an open race, and then the charges started to come against Trump, 140 00:07:29.970 --> 00:07:33.040 align:middle line:90% and Republican voters rallied around Trump, thinking that 141 00:07:33.049 --> 00:07:37.350 align:middle line:90% he was being persecuted. So that's the Republican primary. But like you said, 142 00:07:37.531 --> 00:07:42.700 align:middle line:90% you have seen consistent trends of independent voters and moderate voters 143 00:07:42.813 --> 00:07:46.799 align:middle line:90% saying that they would have real concerns about voting for somebody if he was 144 00:07:46.809 --> 00:07:50.989 align:middle line:90% a convicted felon. So I do think a conviction in any of these cases, 145 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:55.589 align:middle line:90% certainly the more serious cases, is a pretty serious general election issue. 146 00:07:55.589 --> 00:07:59.123 align:middle line:90% And… and… and yet though, Scott, what, what if there's an acquittal? 147 00:07:59.123 --> 00:08:00.123 align:middle line:90% And especially… 148 00:08:00.123 --> 00:08:00.623 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 149 00:08:00.623 --> 00:08:04.842 align:middle line:90% …for instance, as we are talking about potentially the New York case 150 00:08:04.842 --> 00:08:07.122 align:middle line:90% may be the weakest. And if… 151 00:08:07.122 --> 00:08:07.622 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 152 00:08:07.622 --> 00:08:12.931 align:middle line:90% …in the first case that we see coming down the line, Trump is acquitted, 153 00:08:12.931 --> 00:08:17.724 align:middle line:90% that, I think, in the public's mind has the potential to, you know, 154 00:08:17.724 --> 00:08:23.156 align:middle line:90% taint the legitimacy of the outcome of the other trials. 155 00:08:23.156 --> 00:08:25.870 align:middle line:90% I agree. I agree. And, and it just falls into the narrative 156 00:08:25.870 --> 00:08:29.769 align:middle line:90% of Donald Trump, the escape artist, right? Impeached. Acquitted. Impeached. 157 00:08:29.769 --> 00:08:32.939 align:middle line:90% Acquitted. Right? There's a pattern here throughout his public career 158 00:08:32.939 --> 00:08:35.999 align:middle line:90% where he just manages to escape at the last possible moment. 159 00:08:35.999 --> 00:08:38.858 align:middle line:90% I think that plays into that, and I think he's taking a victory lap on, 160 00:08:38.858 --> 00:08:39.358 align:middle line:90% [INTRIGUING MUSIC] 161 00:08:39.358 --> 00:08:41.694 align:middle line:90% on an acquittal [CHUCKLING] the entire rest of the election. 162 00:08:42.207 --> 00:08:46.534 align:middle line:90% Trump faces another set of state-level criminal charges in Georgia. 163 00:08:46.989 --> 00:08:47.489 align:middle line:90% [START ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIPS] 164 00:08:47.489 --> 00:08:51.768 align:middle line:90% The August indictment charged 19 people for their roles in trying to overturn 165 00:08:51.768 --> 00:08:53.029 align:middle line:90% the 2020 election. 166 00:08:53.029 --> 00:08:56.988 align:middle line:90% The GOP presidential front-runner is charged with multiple felonies, 167 00:08:56.988 --> 00:08:59.889 align:middle line:90% including violation of the Georgia RICO Act 168 00:08:59.889 --> 00:09:04.115 align:middle line:90% and solicitation of violation of oath by public officer. 169 00:09:04.115 --> 00:09:07.178 align:middle line:90% Arrest warrants have been issued for former President Donald Trump. 170 00:09:07.178 --> 00:09:09.608 align:middle line:90% Indeed, a historic moment here in the state of Georgia 171 00:09:09.608 --> 00:09:11.193 align:middle line:90% as we talk about a former president. 172 00:09:11.193 --> 00:09:11.693 align:middle line:90% [END ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIPS] 173 00:09:11.693 --> 00:09:18.140 align:middle line:90% This is a huge case. Trump and 18 others are charged under Georgia's Racketeer 174 00:09:18.140 --> 00:09:22.229 align:middle line:90% Influenced and Corrupt Organization Act, a law known as RICO, 175 00:09:22.523 --> 00:09:25.969 align:middle line:90% typically used against organized crime rings like the mafia. 176 00:09:27.075 --> 00:09:31.530 align:middle line:90% Prosecutors say Trump and his allies acted together to make false claims 177 00:09:31.539 --> 00:09:36.770 align:middle line:90% of election fraud, create a fake slate of pro-Trump electors and conspire 178 00:09:36.780 --> 00:09:39.940 align:middle line:90% to steal voter data and tamper with voting equipment. 179 00:09:40.973 --> 00:09:43.789 align:middle line:90% And here again, we've heard some of the evidence prosecutors 180 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:48.890 align:middle line:90% will likely lean on. Namely, a January 2021 phone call between Trump 181 00:09:49.016 --> 00:09:52.849 align:middle line:90% and Georgia's Republican Secretary of State, Brad Raffensperger, 182 00:09:53.275 --> 00:09:57.210 align:middle line:90% where Trump can be heard asking Raffensperger to reverse his loss there. 183 00:09:57.500 --> 00:09:58.000 align:middle line:90% [START NBC NEWS ARCHIVAL CLIP] 184 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:08.840 align:middle line:90% So, look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find, uh, 11,780 votes, 185 00:10:08.840 --> 00:10:12.645 align:middle line:90% which is one more than we have, because we won the state, 186 00:10:12.645 --> 00:10:17.245 align:middle line:90% and flipping the state is a great testament to our country. 187 00:10:17.245 --> 00:10:17.745 align:middle line:90% [END NBC NEWS ARCHIVAL CLIP] 188 00:10:17.745 --> 00:10:21.120 align:middle line:90% Four of Trump's co-defendants have taken plea deals and agreed 189 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:23.071 align:middle line:90% to cooperate with the prosecution. 190 00:10:23.071 --> 00:10:23.571 align:middle line:90% [START ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIPS] 191 00:10:23.571 --> 00:10:25.189 align:middle line:90% Atlanta bail bondsman Scott Hall… 192 00:10:25.189 --> 00:10:27.328 align:middle line:90% …pleaded guilty to five counts… 193 00:10:27.328 --> 00:10:30.012 align:middle line:90% He was accused of tampering with Georgia's voting machines 194 00:10:30.012 --> 00:10:31.561 align:middle line:90% following the 2020 election. 195 00:10:31.561 --> 00:10:34.698 align:middle line:90% Trump's former campaign attorney, Kenneth Chesebro… 196 00:10:34.698 --> 00:10:38.641 align:middle line:90% …pleaded guilty to a single felony count related to his role organizing slates 197 00:10:38.641 --> 00:10:41.562 align:middle line:90% of pro-Trump electors in states Joe Biden won. 198 00:10:41.562 --> 00:10:44.792 align:middle line:90% Donald Trump's former attorney, Sidney Powell, just pleaded guilty 199 00:10:44.792 --> 00:10:50.042 align:middle line:90% in a deal with prosecutors over efforts to overturn Trump's election loss in Georgia. 200 00:10:50.042 --> 00:10:52.662 align:middle line:90% Jenna Ellis reached a deal with prosecutors pleading guilty… 201 00:10:52.662 --> 00:10:56.092 align:middle line:90% Prosecutors say Ellis intentionally aided and abetted two other lawyers 202 00:10:56.092 --> 00:10:59.111 align:middle line:90% as they lied to Georgia state senators about voting by felons, 203 00:10:59.111 --> 00:11:00.421 align:middle line:90% children and dead people. 204 00:11:00.421 --> 00:11:00.921 align:middle line:90% [END ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIPS] 205 00:11:00.921 --> 00:11:03.838 align:middle line:90% Prosecutors are seeking to start Trump's trial in August. 206 00:11:03.838 --> 00:11:06.974 align:middle line:90% But it has come to a standstill after one of Trump's co-defendants 207 00:11:06.974 --> 00:11:09.731 align:middle line:90% accused two of the lead prosecutors of being in a, quote, 208 00:11:09.966 --> 00:11:15.119 align:middle line:90% "improper, clandestine" relationship. Now, Fulton County District Attorney 209 00:11:15.130 --> 00:11:19.619 align:middle line:90% Fani Willis, who's leading the case, is facing potential disqualification 210 00:11:19.630 --> 00:11:23.030 align:middle line:90% for dating special prosecutor Nathan Wade due to the appearance 211 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:27.200 align:middle line:90% of a conflict of interest. Trump and his co-defendants say Willis stands 212 00:11:27.210 --> 00:11:29.640 align:middle line:90% to financially benefit from the relationship. 213 00:11:29.640 --> 00:11:30.140 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 214 00:11:30.923 --> 00:11:33.969 align:middle line:90% Well, it is definitely a sideshow for [CHUCKLING] any of us 215 00:11:33.979 --> 00:11:37.970 align:middle line:90% who have been watching this play out in the superior courtroom 216 00:11:37.970 --> 00:11:45.049 align:middle line:90% in Fulton County. How did we get here was with a massive case of very bad 217 00:11:45.059 --> 00:11:50.877 align:middle line:90% [CHUCKLING] judgment on the part of the, the D.A., Fani Willis, of, you know, 218 00:11:50.877 --> 00:11:57.109 align:middle line:90% having a romantic relationship with her chief prosecutor. 219 00:11:57.305 --> 00:11:57.956 align:middle line:90% Who she hired. 220 00:11:57.960 --> 00:12:02.840 align:middle line:90% Who she hired. Now we're down to arguing, oh, did the relationship start 221 00:12:02.849 --> 00:12:10.390 align:middle line:90% before or did it start after? Was there a financial incentive for her to hire him? 222 00:12:10.739 --> 00:12:16.780 align:middle line:90% And I've got to tell you, it's turning into something where you can watch 223 00:12:16.789 --> 00:12:20.520 align:middle line:90% the, the judge's face in that courtroom and you can see that he's, like, 224 00:12:20.530 --> 00:12:22.900 align:middle line:90% sitting there wishing he'd gone to med school. 225 00:12:22.900 --> 00:12:23.400 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHTER] 226 00:12:23.976 --> 00:12:27.000 align:middle line:90% And it's not illegal for them to be dating. It's not illegal 227 00:12:27.124 --> 00:12:31.279 align:middle line:90% for her to be his supervisor. It's just, as you said, poor judgment 228 00:12:31.499 --> 00:12:33.090 align:middle line:90% and an opening for Trump. 229 00:12:33.272 --> 00:12:38.068 align:middle line:90% And also, now they have both testified that this relationship began 230 00:12:38.068 --> 00:12:45.700 align:middle line:90% after her hiring of him, and if there is evidence that either she or the prosecutor 231 00:12:45.870 --> 00:12:51.270 align:middle line:90% did not tell the truth on the stand, then you've got an, a whole 'nother 232 00:12:51.402 --> 00:12:57.039 align:middle line:90% set of potential reasons that this case could get thrown out. Now, the case itself 233 00:12:57.049 --> 00:13:01.390 align:middle line:90% wouldn't disappear, but they would have to find somebody else to prosecute it. 234 00:13:01.522 --> 00:13:04.534 align:middle line:90% Huh. And this sideshow about Fani Willis, it's been broadcast 235 00:13:04.534 --> 00:13:08.686 align:middle line:90% live all across cable news because there are cameras in the courtroom 236 00:13:08.686 --> 00:13:12.349 align:middle line:90% in Georgia. We're seeing everything. We're seeing everything in Georgia. 237 00:13:12.349 --> 00:13:12.849 align:middle line:90% [SCOTT DETROW LAUGHS] 238 00:13:12.849 --> 00:13:15.494 align:middle line:90% We're seeing everything. We're seeing Fani Willis dramatically 239 00:13:15.494 --> 00:13:18.873 align:middle line:90% taking the witness stand and the hearing about her personal relationship 240 00:13:18.873 --> 00:13:22.123 align:middle line:90% at the last minute. Cable news channels are [CHUCKLING] showing every single 241 00:13:22.123 --> 00:13:26.453 align:middle line:90% moment of it, all of the personal details. I mean, it is certainly a sideshow 242 00:13:26.453 --> 00:13:30.412 align:middle line:90% to the main trial. And you had Willis repeatedly saying, I am not on trial here. 243 00:13:30.412 --> 00:13:31.603 align:middle line:90% I'm not the defendant here. 244 00:13:31.603 --> 00:13:32.103 align:middle line:90% [START ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 245 00:13:32.103 --> 00:13:35.533 align:middle line:90% You're confused. You think I'm on trial. These people are on trial 246 00:13:35.533 --> 00:13:39.403 align:middle line:90% for trying to steal an election in 2020. I'm not on trial, no matter how hard 247 00:13:39.403 --> 00:13:40.703 align:middle line:90% you try to put me on trial. 248 00:13:40.703 --> 00:13:41.203 align:middle line:90% [END ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 249 00:13:41.203 --> 00:13:44.403 align:middle line:90% But I do think it's important to really spell out why there are 250 00:13:44.403 --> 00:13:47.989 align:middle line:90% ethical questions here. This is an outside lawyer, brought in, 251 00:13:47.989 --> 00:13:52.063 align:middle line:90% paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to do the work of leading the prosecution 252 00:13:52.063 --> 00:13:55.534 align:middle line:90% against Donald Trump. So I do think if you remove the party from it, 253 00:13:55.534 --> 00:13:57.623 align:middle line:90% if you move Donald Trump from the equation, a lot of people 254 00:13:57.623 --> 00:14:00.553 align:middle line:90% would say, wait a second, a personal relationship with somebody 255 00:14:00.553 --> 00:14:03.922 align:middle line:90% being steered hundreds of thousands of dollars in, in taxpayer money, 256 00:14:03.922 --> 00:14:07.273 align:middle line:90% that is problematic, even if it's not illegal. So I do think there are 257 00:14:07.273 --> 00:14:11.324 align:middle line:90% serious questions here, but they have become ballooned into the hyperpartisan, 258 00:14:11.324 --> 00:14:15.245 align:middle line:90% you know, trench warfare that everything Donald Trump touches takes on. 259 00:14:15.245 --> 00:14:15.745 align:middle line:90% [STELTER CHUCKLES] 260 00:14:15.745 --> 00:14:19.725 align:middle line:90% It has become all about Fani Willis and her personal relationships 261 00:14:19.725 --> 00:14:24.016 align:middle line:90% for several months now, and not about, okay, when is there going to be a trial 262 00:14:24.016 --> 00:14:29.547 align:middle line:90% of this RICO case of Donald Trump and 18 co-defendants trying to overturn 263 00:14:29.547 --> 00:14:33.177 align:middle line:90% the presidential election. And remember, it's a state-level proceeding, 264 00:14:33.177 --> 00:14:36.277 align:middle line:90% so Trump couldn't use his presidential power if he goes into office again 265 00:14:36.277 --> 00:14:37.087 align:middle line:90% to get out of it. 266 00:14:37.087 --> 00:14:37.587 align:middle line:90% [INTRIGUING MUSIC] 267 00:14:37.587 --> 00:14:40.116 align:middle line:90% So is it true that as of today, we don't know if or when 268 00:14:40.116 --> 00:14:41.266 align:middle line:90% this trial will actually happen? 269 00:14:41.266 --> 00:14:42.826 align:middle line:90% That's right. Huge question mark. 270 00:14:44.179 --> 00:14:49.070 align:middle line:90% Let's move now to trial number three, another election interference case, 271 00:14:49.372 --> 00:14:53.859 align:middle line:90% this one at the federal level, for Trump's alleged efforts to overturn the results 272 00:14:53.859 --> 00:14:58.159 align:middle line:90% of the 2020 election and his role in the January 6 insurrection. 273 00:14:58.429 --> 00:14:58.929 align:middle line:90% [START ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 274 00:14:58.929 --> 00:15:03.440 align:middle line:90% And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, 275 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:05.129 align:middle line:90% you're not going to have a country anymore. 276 00:15:05.129 --> 00:15:05.629 align:middle line:90% [END ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 277 00:15:05.629 --> 00:15:08.649 align:middle line:90% More than a thousand people have been charged for participating 278 00:15:08.649 --> 00:15:12.038 align:middle line:90% in the January 6 attack, and more than half have pleaded guilty. 279 00:15:12.400 --> 00:15:16.809 align:middle line:90% Congress quickly impeached Trump on a charge of inciting an insurrection, 280 00:15:17.287 --> 00:15:20.950 align:middle line:90% though he was acquitted in the Senate. A bipartisan Congressional committee 281 00:15:21.048 --> 00:15:22.733 align:middle line:90% later investigated the attack. 282 00:15:23.023 --> 00:15:26.070 align:middle line:90% And here's the Republican vice chair of that committee, Liz Cheney. 283 00:15:26.710 --> 00:15:27.210 align:middle line:90% [START NPR ARCHIVAL CLIP] 284 00:15:27.210 --> 00:15:31.390 align:middle line:90% The vast weight of evidence presented so far has shown us 285 00:15:31.390 --> 00:15:36.410 align:middle line:90% that the central cause of January 6th was one man, Donald Trump, 286 00:15:36.536 --> 00:15:40.809 align:middle line:90% who many others followed. None of this would have happened without him. 287 00:15:40.809 --> 00:15:41.309 align:middle line:90% [END NPR ARCHIVAL CLIP] 288 00:15:41.309 --> 00:15:45.008 align:middle line:90% The committee unanimously referred Trump and the lawyer John Eastman 289 00:15:45.008 --> 00:15:49.198 align:middle line:90% to the Department of Justice for prosecution. And in August last year, 290 00:15:49.198 --> 00:15:51.988 align:middle line:90% Special Counsel Jack Smith announced charges 291 00:15:51.988 --> 00:15:53.259 align:middle line:90% against the former president. 292 00:15:53.739 --> 00:15:54.239 align:middle line:90% [START ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 293 00:15:54.239 --> 00:15:59.179 align:middle line:90% Today, an indictment was unsealed, charging Donald J. Trump 294 00:15:59.179 --> 00:16:02.370 align:middle line:90% with conspiring to defraud the United States, 295 00:16:03.019 --> 00:16:07.909 align:middle line:90% conspiring to disenfranchise voters, and conspiring and attempting to obstruct 296 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:13.039 align:middle line:90% an official proceeding. The indictment was issued by a grand jury of citizens 297 00:16:13.049 --> 00:16:17.005 align:middle line:90% here in the District of Columbia and it sets forth the crimes charged… 298 00:16:17.005 --> 00:16:17.505 align:middle line:90% [END ARCHIVAL NEWS CLIP] 299 00:16:17.505 --> 00:16:20.229 align:middle line:90% Karen says this case is the one that carries 300 00:16:20.229 --> 00:16:23.278 align:middle line:90% the biggest political consequences for Trump in November. 301 00:16:24.021 --> 00:16:24.521 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 302 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:31.349 align:middle line:90% For this to have happened, just absolutely shakes the foundations 303 00:16:31.359 --> 00:16:36.530 align:middle line:90% of our electoral system, and I think that voters are going to be 304 00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:40.179 align:middle line:90% looking at this not only as a question of 305 00:16:40.190 --> 00:16:43.309 align:middle line:90% whether one candidate is fit 306 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:49.270 align:middle line:90% for public office again, but really, as an assurance that nothing like this 307 00:16:49.280 --> 00:16:53.958 align:middle line:90% could ever happen again, that there are, if it is proven, 308 00:16:53.958 --> 00:16:56.301 align:middle line:90% consequences for these actions. 309 00:16:56.301 --> 00:17:00.979 align:middle line:90% Mm. Absolutely. There's no off ramp to the situation that doesn't involve 310 00:17:00.979 --> 00:17:05.019 align:middle line:90% confronting really key existential questions about our democracy and, 311 00:17:05.019 --> 00:17:08.602 align:middle line:90% and our politics and the rule of law. But I think if there's a world where 312 00:17:08.602 --> 00:17:12.865 align:middle line:90% Donald Trump wins the election and these cases have not gone to trial yet, 313 00:17:12.865 --> 00:17:15.777 align:middle line:90% and he just outright dismisses them when he takes office, 314 00:17:16.131 --> 00:17:18.912 align:middle line:90% what does that say about the rule of law in this country? 315 00:17:18.922 --> 00:17:23.561 align:middle line:90% And it's also, you know, the number of other people who have been 316 00:17:23.571 --> 00:17:29.295 align:middle line:90% swept into this. The people who signed up to be fake electors. 317 00:17:29.295 --> 00:17:29.887 align:middle line:90% Mm-hmm. 318 00:17:29.887 --> 00:17:35.176 align:middle line:90% The people who intimidated ordinary election poll workers, 319 00:17:35.176 --> 00:17:40.876 align:middle line:90% the vast network of people that have gotten pulled into this. 320 00:17:40.876 --> 00:17:46.515 align:middle line:90% I think that voters will be looking at these trials, as I said earlier, 321 00:17:46.515 --> 00:17:52.716 align:middle line:90% as some kind of insurance policy that this cannot happen again. 322 00:17:52.716 --> 00:17:53.216 align:middle line:90% [INTRIGUING MUSIC] 323 00:17:53.216 --> 00:17:56.024 align:middle line:90% And here again, the trial has been delayed 324 00:17:56.085 --> 00:17:58.363 align:middle line:90% as aspects of the case are appealed. 325 00:17:58.755 --> 00:18:01.791 align:middle line:90% Specifically, Trump has claimed that as president, 326 00:18:01.873 --> 00:18:04.369 align:middle line:90% he has immunity from criminal prosecution 327 00:18:04.484 --> 00:18:06.400 align:middle line:90% for actions he took while in office. 328 00:18:06.618 --> 00:18:11.092 align:middle line:90% He argued this, unsuccessfully, to a panel of judges earlier this year. 329 00:18:11.410 --> 00:18:14.329 align:middle line:90% There was this extraordinary hearing where, you know, one of the judges asked, 330 00:18:14.339 --> 00:18:17.800 align:middle line:90% if the president ordered SEAL Team 6 to take out a political opponent, 331 00:18:17.810 --> 00:18:20.515 align:middle line:90% are you arguing that the president would be immune? 332 00:18:20.515 --> 00:18:22.695 align:middle line:90% And his team basically said, yes. 333 00:18:22.999 --> 00:18:25.824 align:middle line:90% So then you got this very strong ruling from the judges, 334 00:18:25.824 --> 00:18:29.849 align:middle line:90% two Democrats and a Republican, unanimous ruling, saying, absolutely not. 335 00:18:29.859 --> 00:18:32.790 align:middle line:90% The entire premise of this country is that nobody is above the law, 336 00:18:32.800 --> 00:18:34.874 align:middle line:90% including the president of the United States. 337 00:18:34.874 --> 00:18:37.169 align:middle line:90% You know, we are not granting presidential blanket immunity. 338 00:18:37.609 --> 00:18:40.900 align:middle line:90% Trump is now appealing that ruling to the U.S. Supreme Court. 339 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:44.025 align:middle line:90% The court has scheduled arguments to start in late April. 340 00:18:44.099 --> 00:18:46.609 align:middle line:90% So as of right now, we're in that timeline 341 00:18:46.619 --> 00:18:49.829 align:middle line:90% that we know so well of other big cases that were maybe waiting until 342 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:52.270 align:middle line:90% [CHUCKLING] June at the latest for a Supreme Court ruling. 343 00:18:52.290 --> 00:18:54.958 align:middle line:90% And I think that yet again blows up the idea of a trial this year. 344 00:18:55.780 --> 00:18:59.815 align:middle line:90% I asked Scott about what we might expect to hear Trump's defense team argue 345 00:19:00.026 --> 00:19:02.210 align:middle line:90% if or when this case goes to trial. 346 00:19:02.282 --> 00:19:02.782 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 347 00:19:02.782 --> 00:19:06.022 align:middle line:90% That's a good legal question because I don't think that Donald Trump 348 00:19:06.022 --> 00:19:08.851 align:middle line:90% has denied any aspect of this, right? 349 00:19:08.851 --> 00:19:12.562 align:middle line:90% He certainly doesn't deny trying to overturn the presidential election. 350 00:19:12.562 --> 00:19:15.897 align:middle line:90% His legal team denies that what he said at the Stop the Steal rally 351 00:19:15.897 --> 00:19:19.210 align:middle line:90% has a direct tie to the attack on the U.S. Capitol. 352 00:19:19.273 --> 00:19:22.994 align:middle line:90% They've argued in filings, just as, you know, they've argued in public, 353 00:19:23.005 --> 00:19:26.314 align:middle line:90% that he was just giving a speech, he was not directly telling people 354 00:19:26.324 --> 00:19:30.026 align:middle line:90% to go and attack the U.S. Capitol. We all saw it that day. 355 00:19:30.026 --> 00:19:34.515 align:middle line:90% This has been litigated in impeachment trials and in the court of public opinion 356 00:19:34.525 --> 00:19:38.170 align:middle line:90% for several years at this point in time. There is a question about 357 00:19:38.180 --> 00:19:41.729 align:middle line:90% one of these charges, uh, uh, obstructing an official proceeding, 358 00:19:41.739 --> 00:19:43.914 align:middle line:90% that has [CHUCKLING] also made its way to the Supreme Court. 359 00:19:43.914 --> 00:19:45.476 align:middle line:90% You're hearing a common theme here… 360 00:19:45.548 --> 00:19:46.048 align:middle line:90% [STELTER LAUGHS] 361 00:19:46.048 --> 00:19:49.061 align:middle line:90% …with other people charged with, uh, with January 6th cases. 362 00:19:49.263 --> 00:19:52.834 align:middle line:90% Is, is the question, did Donald Trump try and overturn the presidential election? 363 00:19:53.140 --> 00:19:54.787 align:middle line:90% I think most people who live in America, 364 00:19:54.787 --> 00:19:57.017 align:middle line:90% like, have a, have a pretty clear view on that. 365 00:19:57.124 --> 00:19:59.800 align:middle line:90% It's just that a good chunk of Americans think he was right 366 00:19:59.810 --> 00:20:01.680 align:middle line:90% in doing so in this current partisan moment. 367 00:20:01.984 --> 00:20:02.484 align:middle line:90% Hmm. 368 00:20:02.484 --> 00:20:04.474 align:middle line:90% Which, I should just say out loud to be clear: 369 00:20:04.474 --> 00:20:07.528 align:middle line:90% He lost the presidential election. I'm not giving any [CHUCKLING] credence 370 00:20:07.528 --> 00:20:08.438 align:middle line:90% to that point of view. 371 00:20:08.438 --> 00:20:09.955 align:middle line:90% But this is the environment we're in, 372 00:20:09.955 --> 00:20:11.563 align:middle line:90% where there's, there's not a shared reality. 373 00:20:11.563 --> 00:20:14.085 align:middle line:90% There's not a shared understanding of what happened in 2020. 374 00:20:14.379 --> 00:20:17.420 align:middle line:90% Given that the facts are really not in dispute, then, 375 00:20:17.614 --> 00:20:19.599 align:middle line:90% Karen, does that make these trials more important 376 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:21.420 align:middle line:90% or, or less [CHUCKLING] important, you know? 377 00:20:21.420 --> 00:20:24.250 align:middle line:90% Uh, if people feel like they already know, if they've already reached 378 00:20:24.260 --> 00:20:27.900 align:middle line:90% their own conclusions, how much does it matter if there are trials? 379 00:20:28.130 --> 00:20:34.449 align:middle line:90% I think that hearing these arguments go on among partisans, 380 00:20:34.459 --> 00:20:43.066 align:middle line:90% among politicians, is one thing. But when you see a jury of your peers… 381 00:20:43.066 --> 00:20:44.732 align:middle line:90% Average Americans, yeah. 382 00:20:44.732 --> 00:20:49.935 align:middle line:90% …the president's peers come down with a verdict, I think it is 383 00:20:49.935 --> 00:20:55.726 align:middle line:90% very, very different. And w… we are seeing in the polling, too, that, 384 00:20:55.726 --> 00:21:01.065 align:middle line:90% that people say, well, if there is a, a verdict, if there is a conviction, 385 00:21:01.065 --> 00:21:05.856 align:middle line:90% you know, I'm, I might not want to vote for Trump. I am, I've got to tell you, 386 00:21:05.856 --> 00:21:10.609 align:middle line:90% skeptical, though, of these polls at this early stage because 387 00:21:10.609 --> 00:21:19.568 align:middle line:90% what we have seen among Trump supporters is quite a capacity to rationalize 388 00:21:19.568 --> 00:21:26.667 align:middle line:90% pretty much anything. And ultimately, if it comes down to Trump versus Biden, 389 00:21:26.667 --> 00:21:29.626 align:middle line:90% I think we will see a lot of Trump supporters 390 00:21:29.626 --> 00:21:32.327 align:middle line:90% rationalizing themselves into pretzels. 391 00:21:32.327 --> 00:21:32.827 align:middle line:90% [SOFT MUSIC] 392 00:21:33.619 --> 00:21:37.563 align:middle line:90% Finally, Trump's fourth trial is another federal case, 393 00:21:37.813 --> 00:21:41.560 align:middle line:90% this one looking at how he handled classified documents at Mar-a-Lago 394 00:21:41.776 --> 00:21:43.190 align:middle line:90% after he left the White House. 395 00:21:43.959 --> 00:21:47.704 align:middle line:90% The National Archives says it spent 15 months after Trump left office 396 00:21:47.890 --> 00:21:51.120 align:middle line:90% trying to work with Trump's team to retrieve the documents. 397 00:21:51.800 --> 00:21:54.740 align:middle line:90% Eventually, the FBI was sent to Mar-a-Lago, 398 00:21:54.980 --> 00:21:58.659 align:middle line:90% where agents seized about a hundred documents with classified markings, 399 00:21:58.761 --> 00:22:03.236 align:middle line:90% some including information related to nuclear weapons and national security. 400 00:22:03.966 --> 00:22:07.274 align:middle line:90% Trump has said that he designated the documents as personal. 401 00:22:07.643 --> 00:22:10.577 align:middle line:90% But "CNN" obtained tapes that seem to dispute that. 402 00:22:11.059 --> 00:22:13.580 align:middle line:90% In the tape, you can hear Trump speaking with staff members 403 00:22:13.580 --> 00:22:16.386 align:middle line:90% and he seems to reference a highly classified document 404 00:22:16.386 --> 00:22:19.060 align:middle line:90% on U.S. war plans against Iran. 405 00:22:19.236 --> 00:22:19.736 align:middle line:90% [START CNN ARCHIVAL CLIP] 406 00:22:19.736 --> 00:22:22.876 align:middle line:90% [INDISCERNIBLE] 407 00:22:22.876 --> 00:22:24.185 align:middle line:90% These are the papers. 408 00:22:24.185 --> 00:22:24.685 align:middle line:90% [PAPERS SHUFFLING] 409 00:22:24.685 --> 00:22:25.859 align:middle line:90% Oh, my God. 410 00:22:25.859 --> 00:22:30.729 align:middle line:90% This was done by the military, given to me. Uh, I think we can 411 00:22:30.729 --> 00:22:31.830 align:middle line:90% probably, right? 412 00:22:31.830 --> 00:22:33.488 align:middle line:90% I don't know. We'll, we'll have to see. 413 00:22:33.488 --> 00:22:36.854 align:middle line:90% Yeah, we'll have to try to figure out a, a… 414 00:22:36.854 --> 00:22:37.786 align:middle line:90% Declassify it. 415 00:22:37.786 --> 00:22:38.286 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 416 00:22:38.286 --> 00:22:40.191 align:middle line:90% See, as president, I could have declassified it. 417 00:22:40.191 --> 00:22:40.949 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHING] Yeah. 418 00:22:40.949 --> 00:22:43.212 align:middle line:90% Now I can't, you know? But this is classified. 419 00:22:43.212 --> 00:22:44.967 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHING] Yeah, now, yeah, we have a problem. 420 00:22:44.967 --> 00:22:45.935 align:middle line:90% Isn't that interesting? 421 00:22:45.935 --> 00:22:46.435 align:middle line:90% [END CNN ARCHIVAL CLIP] 422 00:22:46.435 --> 00:22:49.541 align:middle line:90% A federal grand jury's June 2023 indictment led to 423 00:22:49.541 --> 00:22:53.692 align:middle line:90% 40 felony charges for allegedly hiding records from investigators 424 00:22:53.692 --> 00:22:55.182 align:middle line:90% and showing some of them off. 425 00:22:55.182 --> 00:22:55.682 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 426 00:22:55.682 --> 00:22:58.978 align:middle line:90% I've got to say, on the legal merits, 427 00:22:58.978 --> 00:23:02.148 align:middle line:90% this might be the most straightforward case of all. 428 00:23:02.148 --> 00:23:03.502 align:middle line:90% Oh, yeah. Agree. 429 00:23:03.502 --> 00:23:07.860 align:middle line:90% He had documents. We've seen pictures of them in the shower 430 00:23:07.860 --> 00:23:14.659 align:middle line:90% at Mar-a-Lago. He was told he shouldn't have them. And there is a lot of evidence 431 00:23:14.659 --> 00:23:21.199 align:middle line:90% there, then, that he and his team resisted a legitimate request 432 00:23:21.199 --> 00:23:23.989 align:middle line:90% by the federal government to get these documents back. 433 00:23:23.989 --> 00:23:24.489 align:middle line:90% Hmm. 434 00:23:24.489 --> 00:23:27.099 align:middle line:90% And I think that's the underappreciated part of this case, 435 00:23:27.099 --> 00:23:31.298 align:middle line:90% the resistance to the Archives and then, uh, law enforcement trying to get 436 00:23:31.298 --> 00:23:32.658 align:middle line:90% these documents back because you are 437 00:23:32.658 --> 00:23:34.568 align:middle line:90% going to hear so much whataboutism. 438 00:23:34.568 --> 00:23:35.666 align:middle line:90% President Biden. 439 00:23:35.666 --> 00:23:36.447 align:middle line:90% Exactly. 440 00:23:36.447 --> 00:23:38.359 align:middle line:90% President Biden has documents, right? 441 00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:40.575 align:middle line:90% Oh, Vi… and Vice President Pence… 442 00:23:40.575 --> 00:23:41.075 align:middle line:90% Right. 443 00:23:41.075 --> 00:23:42.410 align:middle line:90% …and, uh, [CHUCKLING] yes. 444 00:23:42.410 --> 00:23:47.403 align:middle line:90% Right. But both Biden and Pence turned over the documents and said, 445 00:23:47.403 --> 00:23:50.520 align:middle line:90% well, here you go. I shouldn't have these. You know, the question of 446 00:23:50.520 --> 00:23:53.661 align:middle line:90% why they had them to begin with, I think was explored at length. But, 447 00:23:53.661 --> 00:23:57.500 align:middle line:90% but they turned them over. Part of the indictment against Trump 448 00:23:57.500 --> 00:24:01.470 align:middle line:90% is that they were conspiring to move the documents to keep them out of sight. 449 00:24:01.470 --> 00:24:04.550 align:middle line:90% They were resisting all efforts, and that's what led to that 450 00:24:04.550 --> 00:24:08.743 align:middle line:90% dramatic moment that first kind of showed how serious things were when the FBI 451 00:24:08.743 --> 00:24:11.550 align:middle line:90% raided Mar-a-Lago to go get the documents back. 452 00:24:11.550 --> 00:24:13.409 align:middle line:90% So we've previewed all [CHUCKLING] four of the trials, 453 00:24:13.409 --> 00:24:16.728 align:middle line:90% all of the criminal trials. Trump is also facing civil actions. 454 00:24:16.728 --> 00:24:19.800 align:middle line:90% But we should establish he can still become president again, 455 00:24:19.800 --> 00:24:23.610 align:middle line:90% even if convicted. That might be one of the most important facts here, Scott. 456 00:24:23.610 --> 00:24:26.395 align:middle line:90% Yeah, despite the fact that there are incredible limitations on, 457 00:24:26.395 --> 00:24:30.225 align:middle line:90% on convicted felons voting, Trump could become president again 458 00:24:30.225 --> 00:24:34.954 align:middle line:90% if he's convicted of these crimes. And if one or both of these federal cases 459 00:24:34.954 --> 00:24:38.624 align:middle line:90% is paused until after the election, and he's elected president, 460 00:24:38.624 --> 00:24:42.974 align:middle line:90% he would have the power to pardon himself or pressure the Department of Justice 461 00:24:42.974 --> 00:24:46.704 align:middle line:90% to drop the two federal charges. I think that's why there has been so much 462 00:24:46.704 --> 00:24:50.633 align:middle line:90% of a focus on what happens in this Georgia case, and all of the questions 463 00:24:50.633 --> 00:24:54.614 align:middle line:90% about the prosecutor, Fani Willis's personal relationship with the attorney 464 00:24:54.614 --> 00:24:57.118 align:middle line:90% running that case, because that is a state-level case, 465 00:24:57.118 --> 00:24:59.283 align:middle line:90% that if it went forward and he was convicted, 466 00:24:59.283 --> 00:25:01.284 align:middle line:90% he would not be able to pardon himself. 467 00:25:01.284 --> 00:25:03.654 align:middle line:90% Trump's message, basically his entire campaign message, 468 00:25:03.654 --> 00:25:07.608 align:middle line:90% is that these cases are a witch hunt, that he's being persecuted, 469 00:25:07.608 --> 00:25:10.484 align:middle line:90% uh, and that because it's happening to him, it could happen to you. 470 00:25:10.484 --> 00:25:11.873 align:middle line:90% It could happen to voters. 471 00:25:11.873 --> 00:25:15.134 align:middle line:90% What is the evidence, Karen, that this is not a witch hunt? 472 00:25:15.134 --> 00:25:19.654 align:middle line:90% I mean, he will be tried in front of his peers. I mean, it is 473 00:25:19.654 --> 00:25:25.294 align:middle line:90% our criminal justice system. And, and so much of this was done pretty much 474 00:25:25.294 --> 00:25:31.184 align:middle line:90% out in the open. We all saw much of it with our, our own eyes. 475 00:25:31.184 --> 00:25:36.003 align:middle line:90% But the Trump campaign, as you were saying, has made the courtroom 476 00:25:36.003 --> 00:25:41.970 align:middle line:90% part of a campaign trail. They are selling his mugshot as a fundraiser. 477 00:25:41.970 --> 00:25:48.741 align:middle line:90% I do think it's unfortunate, in many ways, that it's possible that Americans 478 00:25:48.741 --> 00:25:55.782 align:middle line:90% before the election are not going to have a chance to see what a jury decides 479 00:25:55.782 --> 00:25:58.095 align:middle line:90% on the January 6th case… 480 00:25:58.095 --> 00:25:58.708 align:middle line:90% Hmm. 481 00:25:58.708 --> 00:26:03.659 align:middle line:90% …and also on the case where Donald Trump was not only 482 00:26:03.659 --> 00:26:07.015 align:middle line:90% holding classified material that he shouldn't have had, 483 00:26:07.015 --> 00:26:10.804 align:middle line:90% but the serious charge here, what differentiates it from 484 00:26:10.804 --> 00:26:15.322 align:middle line:90% the fact that other politicians, including the current president, 485 00:26:15.322 --> 00:26:21.432 align:middle line:90% Joe Biden, also had classified material they shouldn't have, is that Trump 486 00:26:21.432 --> 00:26:26.159 align:middle line:90% is facing an obstruction of justice charge in addition to that. 487 00:26:26.159 --> 00:26:31.962 align:middle line:90% You know, once he knew he had documents that the feds didn't think he should have, 488 00:26:31.962 --> 00:26:35.683 align:middle line:90% he allegedly tried to hide that from them. 489 00:26:35.683 --> 00:26:39.700 align:middle line:90% Mm. Let me layer on one more part of this story here. 490 00:26:39.700 --> 00:26:42.634 align:middle line:90% Trump has also been ordered to pay more than $350 million, 491 00:26:42.634 --> 00:26:47.884 align:middle line:90% or if you count interest, $450-plus million, for fraud in New York, 492 00:26:47.884 --> 00:26:51.053 align:middle line:90% and another $80 million-plus for defaming E. Jean Carroll. 493 00:26:51.053 --> 00:26:55.251 align:middle line:90% So are these civil penalties at all related to the criminal story here? 494 00:26:55.251 --> 00:26:58.410 align:middle line:90% You know, uh, is this all of a piece, Karen? 495 00:26:58.410 --> 00:27:01.871 align:middle line:90% I think that they are a sort of a separate piece. 496 00:27:01.871 --> 00:27:07.098 align:middle line:90% And one thing that I think I will be [CHUCKLING] watching very carefully is 497 00:27:07.098 --> 00:27:11.429 align:middle line:90% by what means, if he does pay them, does he pay them? 498 00:27:11.429 --> 00:27:15.472 align:middle line:90% I mean, does, does this end up falling on the backs of, 499 00:27:15.472 --> 00:27:18.542 align:middle line:90% of ordinary campaign contributors? 500 00:27:18.542 --> 00:27:24.802 align:middle line:90% People who, you know, are, are writing their checks to Trump or his super PAC 501 00:27:24.802 --> 00:27:28.492 align:middle line:90% or even potentially the Republican National Committee 502 00:27:28.492 --> 00:27:34.502 align:middle line:90% out of their hard-earned money for $25 here, or $50 there. 503 00:27:34.502 --> 00:27:37.972 align:middle line:90% Yeah, the clock is ticking on this. Uh, he does, uh, owe this money, 504 00:27:37.972 --> 00:27:40.822 align:middle line:90% and Scott, the indications, I think we've heard are that the court 505 00:27:40.822 --> 00:27:43.446 align:middle line:90% will force him to pay in some way, whether it's through… 506 00:27:43.446 --> 00:27:43.946 align:middle line:90% Right. 507 00:27:43.946 --> 00:27:46.893 align:middle line:90% …uh, dollars or assets, seizing property, et cetera. 508 00:27:46.893 --> 00:27:50.971 align:middle line:90% Right. And, uh, going back decades, there's always been public conversation 509 00:27:50.971 --> 00:27:54.880 align:middle line:90% about, how much money is Donald Trump worth? That was obviously the core part 510 00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:59.140 align:middle line:90% of the civil trial that led to this enormous fine. But I think even if 511 00:27:59.140 --> 00:28:01.910 align:middle line:90% you take the conservative estimate, so much of his money is tied up 512 00:28:01.910 --> 00:28:06.170 align:middle line:90% in real estate. Finding this kind of cash is a huge problem, and there are a lot of 513 00:28:06.170 --> 00:28:09.009 align:middle line:90% open questions about where he finds the resources 514 00:28:09.009 --> 00:28:10.878 align:middle line:90% to post these enormous payments. 515 00:28:10.878 --> 00:28:14.868 align:middle line:90% Mm. Do you ever think that there's a big chunk of voters, uh, 516 00:28:14.868 --> 00:28:18.358 align:middle line:90% a big chunk of the public that's in denial about what's about to happen? 517 00:28:18.358 --> 00:28:21.715 align:middle line:90% You all have just laid out this incredible timeline. 518 00:28:21.715 --> 00:28:24.360 align:middle line:90% One trial likely to start later this month. 519 00:28:24.360 --> 00:28:28.197 align:middle line:90% Other trials looming. I… I don't know. 520 00:28:28.197 --> 00:28:29.457 align:middle line:90% I… [LAUGHS] 521 00:28:29.457 --> 00:28:32.447 align:middle line:90% I think maybe I've been in denial until I've had this conversation with you two. 522 00:28:32.447 --> 00:28:36.287 align:middle line:90% Um. To put, like, a more of an existentialist twist on this, 523 00:28:36.287 --> 00:28:38.616 align:middle line:90% I, I think there's a lot of denial of what's going to happen 524 00:28:38.616 --> 00:28:42.047 align:middle line:90% and the consequence of it. And I think there's also this big question of, 525 00:28:42.047 --> 00:28:46.283 align:middle line:90% in this partisan my team versus your team, choose your own reality world, 526 00:28:46.283 --> 00:28:50.239 align:middle line:90% how much any of this matters, uh, in November, which is not 527 00:28:50.239 --> 00:28:53.956 align:middle line:90% a super fun topic to think through a lot about. But I think it's cer… 528 00:28:53.956 --> 00:28:55.721 align:middle line:90% Again, it's one of those big existential questions 529 00:28:55.721 --> 00:28:59.400 align:middle line:90% that are being tested and pushed right here: How far does partisanship 530 00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:00.890 align:middle line:90% take us in this climate? 531 00:29:00.890 --> 00:29:01.498 align:middle line:90% Mm. 532 00:29:01.498 --> 00:29:01.998 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES IN] 533 00:29:01.998 --> 00:29:04.962 align:middle line:90% One thing is for sure. There will be an election day. 534 00:29:04.962 --> 00:29:07.395 align:middle line:90% It's Tuesday, November 5th. We don't know what's going to happen 535 00:29:07.395 --> 00:29:09.466 align:middle line:90% [CHUCKLING] between now and then, but we know we're going to have 536 00:29:09.466 --> 00:29:12.755 align:middle line:90% an election in November. Oh, wow. 537 00:29:12.755 --> 00:29:13.255 align:middle line:90% [DETROW LAUGHS] 538 00:29:13.255 --> 00:29:15.395 align:middle line:90% Karen, Scott, thank you both so much. 539 00:29:15.395 --> 00:29:15.895 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 540 00:29:15.895 --> 00:29:16.828 align:middle line:90% My pleasure. 541 00:29:18.671 --> 00:29:22.859 align:middle line:90% Scott Detrow is the host of "NPR's" "Trump's Trials" podcast. 542 00:29:22.869 --> 00:29:26.140 align:middle line:90% Karen Tumulty is a political columnist for "The Washington Post." 543 00:29:26.280 --> 00:29:28.579 align:middle line:90% We'll link to their work in our show notes page. 544 00:29:29.915 --> 00:29:30.415 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT]