WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.582 --> 00:00:01.082 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES IN] 2 00:00:04.022 --> 00:00:06.708 align:middle line:90% This is "In Conversation" from Apple News. 3 00:00:06.817 --> 00:00:09.399 align:middle line:90% I'm Brian Stelter, filling in for Shumita Basu. 4 00:00:09.891 --> 00:00:14.611 align:middle line:90% Today, America's disinformation problem, how it affects all of us, 5 00:00:14.807 --> 00:00:16.589 align:middle line:90% and what we should do about it. 6 00:00:16.777 --> 00:00:17.277 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT] 7 00:00:21.910 --> 00:00:24.610 align:middle line:90% Earlier this year, just ahead of the New Hampshire primary, 8 00:00:24.842 --> 00:00:27.046 align:middle line:90% some voters in the state received a robocall 9 00:00:27.126 --> 00:00:30.202 align:middle line:90% that sounded like it was coming from President Biden. 10 00:00:30.334 --> 00:00:30.834 align:middle line:90% [START THE TELEGRAPH ARCHIVAL CLIP] 11 00:00:30.834 --> 00:00:34.562 align:middle line:90% Voting this Tuesday only enables the Republicans in their quest 12 00:00:34.562 --> 00:00:37.322 align:middle line:90% to elect Donald Trump again. 13 00:00:37.322 --> 00:00:40.661 align:middle line:90% Your vote makes a difference in November, not this Tuesday. 14 00:00:40.661 --> 00:00:41.161 align:middle line:90% [END THE TELEGRAPH ARCHIVAL CLIP] 15 00:00:41.161 --> 00:00:44.191 align:middle line:90% That was not a call from Biden or his campaign. 16 00:00:44.471 --> 00:00:48.142 align:middle line:90% It was an AI-generated impersonation of Biden's voice. 17 00:00:49.027 --> 00:00:52.294 align:middle line:90% This sort of stuff is happening all the time. 18 00:00:53.059 --> 00:00:56.156 align:middle line:90% Just a couple of weeks ago, images circulated on social media 19 00:00:56.276 --> 00:00:58.712 align:middle line:90% that appeared to show Donald Trump with Black voters. 20 00:00:59.105 --> 00:01:02.533 align:middle line:90% But "BBC" reporters noticed something strange. 21 00:01:02.677 --> 00:01:03.177 align:middle line:90% [START BBC ARCHIVAL CLIP] 22 00:01:03.177 --> 00:01:04.794 align:middle line:90% It looks like they're at a party. 23 00:01:04.794 --> 00:01:08.151 align:middle line:90% All great until you realize there's lots of strange things going on with fingers, 24 00:01:08.151 --> 00:01:10.295 align:middle line:90% which is one of the best ways to spot AI. 25 00:01:10.295 --> 00:01:10.951 align:middle line:90% Yes. 26 00:01:10.951 --> 00:01:13.968 align:middle line:90% People are missing a finger or they have lots of extra fingers. 27 00:01:13.968 --> 00:01:14.616 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 28 00:01:14.616 --> 00:01:15.116 align:middle line:90% [END BBC ARCHIVAL CLIP] 29 00:01:15.116 --> 00:01:19.106 align:middle line:90% Disinformation has been a problem in American life for decades, 30 00:01:19.106 --> 00:01:22.297 align:middle line:90% but it's getting more and more intense now. 31 00:01:22.297 --> 00:01:23.665 align:middle line:90% With an election coming up, 32 00:01:23.665 --> 00:01:26.746 align:middle line:90% and artificial intelligence getting more and more sophisticated, 33 00:01:26.746 --> 00:01:29.928 align:middle line:90% it's getting harder to tell what is real and what is not. 34 00:01:29.928 --> 00:01:34.222 align:middle line:90% I think we need to take back the idea that there is such a thing as truth. 35 00:01:34.222 --> 00:01:35.767 align:middle line:90% That's Barbara McQuade. 36 00:01:35.871 --> 00:01:37.448 align:middle line:90% She's a former U.S. attorney, 37 00:01:37.536 --> 00:01:41.194 align:middle line:90% a legal analyst for "NBC" and "MSNBC," and the author of the new book, 38 00:01:41.282 --> 00:01:45.468 align:middle line:90% "Attack from Within: How Disinformation is Sabotaging America." 39 00:01:45.556 --> 00:01:48.292 align:middle line:90% Was the light red at the time of the accident or was the light green? 40 00:01:48.292 --> 00:01:49.081 align:middle line:90% Those are facts. 41 00:01:49.313 --> 00:01:50.306 align:middle line:90% Those are knowable facts. 42 00:01:50.467 --> 00:01:55.217 align:middle line:90% And so it is possible to have knowable, attributable facts. 43 00:01:55.498 --> 00:01:58.920 align:middle line:90% And I think we need to insist on that as opposed to, you know, 44 00:01:58.920 --> 00:02:01.598 align:middle line:90% allowing people to just make stuff up. 45 00:02:02.007 --> 00:02:04.348 align:middle line:90% As someone who has covered media throughout my career, 46 00:02:04.636 --> 00:02:08.249 align:middle line:90% the plague of disinformation is something that I worry about a lot. 47 00:02:08.806 --> 00:02:12.665 align:middle line:90% So I wanted to talk to Barbara about the state of the information landscape today. 48 00:02:13.006 --> 00:02:15.588 align:middle line:90% Why this problem seems to be getting worse instead of better. 49 00:02:15.996 --> 00:02:19.884 align:middle line:90% And most importantly, what we need to do to actually address it. 50 00:02:21.199 --> 00:02:26.148 align:middle line:90% Disinformation is the deliberate use of lies to deceive and manipulate people. 51 00:02:26.221 --> 00:02:28.331 align:middle line:90% It is an intentional deception. 52 00:02:28.519 --> 00:02:33.652 align:middle line:90% And then I use the term "misinformation" to be its sort of unwitting cousin. 53 00:02:33.652 --> 00:02:36.207 align:middle line:90% When we learn a fact that we think is true, 54 00:02:36.207 --> 00:02:38.602 align:middle line:90% but it's false, and then we pass it on. 55 00:02:38.862 --> 00:02:43.448 align:middle line:90% There was a time when I was a victim of misinformation, 56 00:02:43.605 --> 00:02:46.599 align:middle line:90% and I share it in the book about how easy it is for us 57 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:50.224 align:middle line:90% to fall prey to this and pass on false information. 58 00:02:50.336 --> 00:02:52.261 align:middle line:90% I read something online, I'm a big sports fan, 59 00:02:52.261 --> 00:02:55.130 align:middle line:90% and I read something online that said Patrick Mahomes had said 60 00:02:55.130 --> 00:02:57.524 align:middle line:90% he would not play another down for the Kansas City Chiefs 61 00:02:57.884 --> 00:02:59.774 align:middle line:90% until they changed their name to something 62 00:02:59.790 --> 00:03:01.720 align:middle line:90% that was not offensive to Native Americans. 63 00:03:02.057 --> 00:03:03.606 align:middle line:90% And I thought, "Wow, that's a big story." 64 00:03:03.742 --> 00:03:06.228 align:middle line:90% And so I, you know, retweeted it and got it out there. 65 00:03:06.228 --> 00:03:09.220 align:middle line:90% And then later in the day, I was talking to my, my husband and my son 66 00:03:09.220 --> 00:03:11.713 align:middle line:90% and said, "Did you guys see this story about Patrick Mahomes? 67 00:03:11.713 --> 00:03:12.553 align:middle line:90% How about that, huh?" 68 00:03:12.801 --> 00:03:15.230 align:middle line:90% And they said, "No, no, I haven't seen it. I don't know what you're talking about." 69 00:03:15.596 --> 00:03:17.289 align:middle line:90% And then they said, "Are you sure that's true?" 70 00:03:17.557 --> 00:03:19.180 align:middle line:90% And I started thinking about it and thought, 71 00:03:19.180 --> 00:03:21.460 align:middle line:90% "You know, now that I say it, I'm wondering if it's true." 72 00:03:21.460 --> 00:03:25.179 align:middle line:90% So I started looking to see if it was reported anywhere else, and it wasn't. 73 00:03:25.444 --> 00:03:30.424 align:middle line:90% So then I went back to the original tweet, and I read and saw a little more carefully 74 00:03:30.604 --> 00:03:33.859 align:middle line:90% and noticed for the first time that it was from "ESPN," 75 00:03:33.859 --> 00:03:37.550 align:middle line:90% but it said "Sprott Center" and not "Sports Center." 76 00:03:37.550 --> 00:03:38.050 align:middle line:90% [STELTER LAUGHS] 77 00:03:38.050 --> 00:03:43.005 align:middle line:90% And so I had been duped, and I realized just how easy it is for us 78 00:03:43.005 --> 00:03:46.850 align:middle line:90% to fall prey to disinformation and to so then share it with other people. 79 00:03:46.850 --> 00:03:49.508 align:middle line:90% And you are a former U.S. attorney. 80 00:03:49.771 --> 00:03:52.662 align:middle line:90% You're a legal analyst for "NBC" and "MSNBC." 81 00:03:53.290 --> 00:03:56.161 align:middle line:90% So it's hard out there for everybody. [CHUCKLES] 82 00:03:56.161 --> 00:03:57.129 align:middle line:90% Yeah, absolutely. 83 00:03:57.129 --> 00:03:59.486 align:middle line:90% And, you know, some of this deception is getting better and better 84 00:03:59.486 --> 00:04:01.228 align:middle line:90% with artificial intelligence. 85 00:04:01.649 --> 00:04:05.449 align:middle line:90% We might see something, we might hear something that looks genuine 86 00:04:05.449 --> 00:04:07.642 align:middle line:90% and, in fact, is just completely manufactured. 87 00:04:07.918 --> 00:04:09.920 align:middle line:90% You know, sometimes you see these scams where they say, 88 00:04:10.056 --> 00:04:12.826 align:middle line:90% "Did you know you can vote from home by texting to this number?" 89 00:04:13.038 --> 00:04:14.435 align:middle line:90% Which, of course, is not true at all. 90 00:04:14.631 --> 00:04:17.805 align:middle line:90% And so I worry that in this election year, 91 00:04:17.993 --> 00:04:21.668 align:middle line:90% we're going to see more and more of that kind of thing where 92 00:04:21.668 --> 00:04:26.560 align:middle line:90% false information is put out there to try to fool voters into wasting their vote. 93 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:29.740 align:middle line:90% You know, some of those kinds of scams that will just have the effect 94 00:04:29.740 --> 00:04:30.961 align:middle line:90% of suppressing the vote. 95 00:04:31.262 --> 00:04:33.764 align:middle line:90% That's why I was so interested in having this conversation with you. 96 00:04:34.295 --> 00:04:38.303 align:middle line:90% This feels like a situation, a problem, an environment 97 00:04:38.471 --> 00:04:40.007 align:middle line:90% where it's only getting worse, 98 00:04:40.087 --> 00:04:44.052 align:middle line:90% where the fog, the pollution, the haze of disinformation, 99 00:04:44.156 --> 00:04:45.470 align:middle line:90% it's only getting thicker. 100 00:04:45.714 --> 00:04:48.669 align:middle line:90% We're only choking on it more and more every day. 101 00:04:49.166 --> 00:04:52.673 align:middle line:90% Is that a fair assessment of the gravity of the situation? 102 00:04:52.965 --> 00:04:53.942 align:middle line:90% Is it getting worse? 103 00:04:54.034 --> 00:04:55.426 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I think it is. I think… 104 00:04:55.426 --> 00:04:58.059 align:middle line:90% And I think it's because we haven't quite gotten our arms around it yet. 105 00:04:58.275 --> 00:04:59.851 align:middle line:90% The problem has been growing, 106 00:04:59.851 --> 00:05:02.673 align:middle line:90% and we have not done anything to try to address it. 107 00:05:02.977 --> 00:05:04.521 align:middle line:90% And one of the problems, Brian, 108 00:05:04.521 --> 00:05:07.626 align:middle line:90% is that the more disinformation there is out there, 109 00:05:07.878 --> 00:05:11.029 align:middle line:90% the easier it is for people to hide behind it 110 00:05:11.229 --> 00:05:13.092 align:middle line:90% and say that everything is fake news. 111 00:05:13.296 --> 00:05:15.873 align:middle line:90% This is sometimes referred to as "the liar's dividend." 112 00:05:16.121 --> 00:05:18.577 align:middle line:90% Because everybody lies, I can lie because I'll just, 113 00:05:18.577 --> 00:05:21.023 align:middle line:90% you know, I'll just say it's fake news if somebody criticizes me. 114 00:05:21.251 --> 00:05:24.355 align:middle line:90% I can say whatever I want because there's so much disinformation out there. 115 00:05:24.563 --> 00:05:27.239 align:middle line:90% But that's really dangerous in a democracy. 116 00:05:27.379 --> 00:05:32.237 align:middle line:90% You know, in Putin's Russia, there is this idea of the fog of unknowability, 117 00:05:32.353 --> 00:05:35.881 align:middle line:90% and that everything is PR, and that truth is for suckers, 118 00:05:35.881 --> 00:05:37.986 align:middle line:90% and there's no real truth in the world anyway, 119 00:05:38.158 --> 00:05:41.383 align:middle line:90% and nobody can ever know any fact to be true. 120 00:05:41.383 --> 00:05:45.952 align:middle line:90% And so, rather than insisting on facts or truth, instead, 121 00:05:45.952 --> 00:05:49.590 align:middle line:90% you should focus on the candidate or the party or the policy 122 00:05:49.590 --> 00:05:51.141 align:middle line:90% that will get you the most for you. 123 00:05:51.361 --> 00:05:54.108 align:middle line:90% Everybody's corrupt, and if everybody's corrupt, 124 00:05:54.108 --> 00:05:56.223 align:middle line:90% then you might as well vote for me, 125 00:05:56.223 --> 00:05:59.523 align:middle line:90% even though I'm corrupt, because I'll get you what you want. 126 00:05:59.523 --> 00:06:04.448 align:middle line:90% And so the effect that has on politics is that people become very cynical, 127 00:06:04.676 --> 00:06:06.910 align:middle line:90% and then they tune out altogether and they say, 128 00:06:07.099 --> 00:06:09.268 align:middle line:90% "I don't know what to think, I don't know what to believe, 129 00:06:09.268 --> 00:06:11.053 align:middle line:90% I'm just going to disengage from politics, 130 00:06:11.053 --> 00:06:12.886 align:middle line:90% I don't want to participate in that system." 131 00:06:13.130 --> 00:06:16.693 align:middle line:90% And then that's a real recipe for disaster in democracy 132 00:06:16.693 --> 00:06:19.138 align:middle line:90% because then we have fewer members of the public 133 00:06:19.298 --> 00:06:22.744 align:middle line:90% who are deciding what our future and what our government is going to look like. 134 00:06:22.890 --> 00:06:23.610 align:middle line:90% Mm. 135 00:06:24.585 --> 00:06:27.586 align:middle line:90% In the book, you lay out some key disinformation tactics 136 00:06:27.926 --> 00:06:30.259 align:middle line:90% and how figures like Trump have used them in recent years. 137 00:06:30.603 --> 00:06:34.041 align:middle line:90% What are the most significant tactics that people should learn to spot, 138 00:06:34.041 --> 00:06:35.224 align:middle line:90% should learn to identify? 139 00:06:35.428 --> 00:06:36.993 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I'll name just a couple of them. 140 00:06:36.993 --> 00:06:38.530 align:middle line:90% I mean, one is repetition. 141 00:06:38.814 --> 00:06:43.342 align:middle line:90% And so this is an idea that comes out of Hitler's "Mein Kampf," 142 00:06:43.474 --> 00:06:45.863 align:middle line:90% when he talked about the importance of repetition 143 00:06:45.863 --> 00:06:49.237 align:middle line:90% and he wrote words to the effect of, "No narrative is too simple. 144 00:06:49.433 --> 00:06:53.956 align:middle line:90% It should be simple, repeatable, easy to remember, catchy slogans, 145 00:06:54.264 --> 00:06:57.935 align:middle line:90% because if people hear these things, then they will remember them." 146 00:06:57.935 --> 00:06:58.435 align:middle line:90% Mm. 147 00:06:58.435 --> 00:07:01.871 align:middle line:90% And so one of the things he had was he referred to the media 148 00:07:01.871 --> 00:07:05.709 align:middle line:90% as the Lügenpresse, which means "lying press." 149 00:07:05.942 --> 00:07:09.318 align:middle line:90% And he would say that over and over again in the same way Donald Trump refers to 150 00:07:09.438 --> 00:07:10.814 align:middle line:90% the "enemy of the people." 151 00:07:11.022 --> 00:07:12.487 align:middle line:90% You hear it again and again. 152 00:07:12.487 --> 00:07:17.408 align:middle line:90% And it gives it the patina of credibility because people say they've heard it 153 00:07:17.408 --> 00:07:18.740 align:middle line:90% from a number of different sources. 154 00:07:18.965 --> 00:07:20.406 align:middle line:90% Or "Stop the steal." 155 00:07:20.618 --> 00:07:24.174 align:middle line:90% People, you know, will hear that phrase not only from Donald Trump, 156 00:07:24.174 --> 00:07:26.999 align:middle line:90% but they'll start hearing it from their neighbors and on social media. 157 00:07:27.203 --> 00:07:31.383 align:middle line:90% And so it's a catchy little phrase that's got a simple narrative, 158 00:07:31.515 --> 00:07:32.844 align:middle line:90% and they can follow along. 159 00:07:32.844 --> 00:07:34.361 align:middle line:90% So, that's one. 160 00:07:34.545 --> 00:07:37.936 align:middle line:90% Another is this idea that the bigger the lie, 161 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:40.269 align:middle line:90% the more likely it is to be believed. 162 00:07:40.269 --> 00:07:42.109 align:middle line:90% And this one is kind of counterintuitive. 163 00:07:42.345 --> 00:07:44.359 align:middle line:90% This was, you know, what Hitler's strategy, 164 00:07:44.359 --> 00:07:46.166 align:middle line:90% again, he defines it in "Mein Kampf," 165 00:07:46.270 --> 00:07:49.675 align:middle line:90% and he said, "Everybody tells white lies from time to time." 166 00:07:49.799 --> 00:07:52.789 align:middle line:90% You know, you might tell somebody that they look good tonight, 167 00:07:52.789 --> 00:07:56.140 align:middle line:90% or, you know, they're saying things out of a place of kindness or courtesy. 168 00:07:56.376 --> 00:07:59.693 align:middle line:90% But what Hitler wrote is, "It would never occur to most people 169 00:08:00.093 --> 00:08:04.246 align:middle line:90% to have the audacity to lie about something of great significance." 170 00:08:04.458 --> 00:08:09.112 align:middle line:90% And so they project onto others that same moral limit that, you know, 171 00:08:09.112 --> 00:08:11.212 align:middle line:90% "Who would do that? Nobody would lie about that." 172 00:08:11.580 --> 00:08:15.175 align:middle line:90% And so for the person who is willing to cross that moral line 173 00:08:15.175 --> 00:08:17.258 align:middle line:90% and lie about things that are very significant, 174 00:08:17.582 --> 00:08:22.770 align:middle line:90% it has the unlikely result of being more believable than a little white lie. 175 00:08:22.770 --> 00:08:24.338 align:middle line:90% People are like, "Yeah, yeah, people might lie about that. 176 00:08:24.338 --> 00:08:24.983 align:middle line:90% That's no big deal. 177 00:08:24.983 --> 00:08:27.412 align:middle line:90% But nobody would lie about a stolen election. 178 00:08:27.657 --> 00:08:28.937 align:middle line:90% It'd be too easy to catch. 179 00:08:28.937 --> 00:08:30.386 align:middle line:90% I mean, there'd be lawsuits filed. 180 00:08:30.386 --> 00:08:31.187 align:middle line:90% There'd be audits. 181 00:08:31.187 --> 00:08:32.307 align:middle line:90% You'd fail all of them." 182 00:08:32.572 --> 00:08:34.165 align:middle line:90% Well, yes, that is what happened. 183 00:08:34.368 --> 00:08:38.800 align:middle line:90% But I think that's one of the tactics that gets used is this idea of 184 00:08:38.895 --> 00:08:41.169 align:middle line:90% the bigger the lie, the more believable it will be. 185 00:08:41.261 --> 00:08:43.927 align:middle line:90% Why do people want to believe disinformation? 186 00:08:43.927 --> 00:08:47.404 align:middle line:90% Why do they want to believe some of these campaigns of lies. 187 00:08:47.530 --> 00:08:51.081 align:middle line:90% And you identify these factors like confirmation bias, stubbornness, 188 00:08:51.286 --> 00:08:53.027 align:middle line:90% cognitive dissonance. 189 00:08:53.380 --> 00:08:55.122 align:middle line:90% Does the political world need to learn more 190 00:08:55.122 --> 00:08:56.744 align:middle line:90% from the realm of psychology 191 00:08:56.920 --> 00:08:58.573 align:middle line:90% to understand this problem? 192 00:08:58.573 --> 00:08:59.657 align:middle line:90% Yes, I think so. 193 00:08:59.806 --> 00:09:01.922 align:middle line:90% So I read a number of books about psychology 194 00:09:01.922 --> 00:09:05.583 align:middle line:90% and how these cognitive biases that we all have come into play. 195 00:09:05.583 --> 00:09:08.394 align:middle line:90% And you've mentioned some, you know, this idea of confirmation bias. 196 00:09:08.606 --> 00:09:10.995 align:middle line:90% We know what we think and what we want to think. 197 00:09:11.188 --> 00:09:15.330 align:middle line:90% And so, we will notice the facts that support our theory, 198 00:09:15.475 --> 00:09:18.516 align:middle line:90% and we will overlook the facts that don't support our theory. 199 00:09:18.700 --> 00:09:21.666 align:middle line:90% And not intentionally, it's just the way our minds work. 200 00:09:21.666 --> 00:09:25.165 align:middle line:90% So, if I am a Michigan football fan, as I am… 201 00:09:25.165 --> 00:09:25.665 align:middle line:90% [STELTER CHUCKLES] 202 00:09:25.665 --> 00:09:28.174 align:middle line:90% …and I go to a game at Michigan Stadium, 203 00:09:28.174 --> 00:09:31.261 align:middle line:90% and there's, you know, pass interference is called against my team, 204 00:09:31.261 --> 00:09:32.885 align:middle line:90% you know, the crowd all starts booing, 205 00:09:32.885 --> 00:09:35.351 align:middle line:90% and then they show the play again on the jumbotron, 206 00:09:35.455 --> 00:09:40.233 align:middle line:90% and even if that replay shows that the ref made the right call, 207 00:09:40.414 --> 00:09:42.519 align:middle line:90% everybody in that stadium is going to boo anyway, right? 208 00:09:42.519 --> 00:09:45.490 align:middle line:90% And we might see that, like, it's absolutely the right call. 209 00:09:45.490 --> 00:09:45.990 align:middle line:90% [STELTER LAUGHS] 210 00:09:45.990 --> 00:09:49.719 align:middle line:90% But we care more about, you know, demonstrating our bona fides, 211 00:09:49.719 --> 00:09:51.681 align:middle line:90% that what we want to happen, 212 00:09:51.681 --> 00:09:54.549 align:middle line:90% and we will see the evidence that we believe happened 213 00:09:54.549 --> 00:09:56.013 align:middle line:90% that fits our own narrative. 214 00:09:56.013 --> 00:09:58.215 align:middle line:90% And that's just one of the ways our minds work. 215 00:09:58.308 --> 00:09:58.864 align:middle line:90% Right. 216 00:09:59.329 --> 00:10:03.794 align:middle line:90% This term "disinformation" has itself been weaponized and turned into disinformation. 217 00:10:03.995 --> 00:10:05.264 align:middle line:90% You know what I'm talking about. 218 00:10:05.388 --> 00:10:08.218 align:middle line:90% There is a concerted campaign from the likes of Elon Musk 219 00:10:08.314 --> 00:10:10.319 align:middle line:90% to claim that anything fact checked, 220 00:10:10.319 --> 00:10:12.701 align:middle line:90% anything out there purporting to be a fact check, 221 00:10:12.805 --> 00:10:14.355 align:middle line:90% is actually disinformation. 222 00:10:14.647 --> 00:10:17.137 align:middle line:90% So you must have come up against this when you were working on this book. 223 00:10:17.137 --> 00:10:17.770 align:middle line:90% Oh, yeah. 224 00:10:17.770 --> 00:10:20.229 align:middle line:90% In fact, not so much when I was working on it, 225 00:10:20.229 --> 00:10:22.193 align:middle line:90% but since I've published it. 226 00:10:22.402 --> 00:10:25.726 align:middle line:90% You know, I might tweet on there that I'm going to be giving a talk somewhere, 227 00:10:25.726 --> 00:10:28.779 align:middle line:90% and there, you know, a number of people will say very nice things. 228 00:10:28.779 --> 00:10:30.829 align:middle line:90% And then there are a number of trolls who say, 229 00:10:31.013 --> 00:10:33.863 align:middle line:90% "You want to repeal the First Amendment, you Nazi!" 230 00:10:33.863 --> 00:10:36.053 align:middle line:90% [LAUGHS] It's just crazy what people write. 231 00:10:36.182 --> 00:10:38.059 align:middle line:90% "You're advocating for censorship." 232 00:10:38.059 --> 00:10:40.021 align:middle line:90% Like, no, no, none of the above. 233 00:10:40.021 --> 00:10:41.626 align:middle line:90% Just, just want truth. 234 00:10:41.626 --> 00:10:43.597 align:middle line:90% But I think one of the things that's happened, Brian, 235 00:10:43.597 --> 00:10:45.617 align:middle line:90% is that in today's society, 236 00:10:45.617 --> 00:10:50.329 align:middle line:90% we've become so polarized that we care more about our tribe 237 00:10:50.517 --> 00:10:51.958 align:middle line:90% than we care about the truth. 238 00:10:52.222 --> 00:10:55.439 align:middle line:90% If our side said it, then it must be so. 239 00:10:55.635 --> 00:10:57.984 align:middle line:90% And if the other side said it, it must be false. 240 00:10:58.292 --> 00:11:03.373 align:middle line:90% And we are willing to accept whatever facts are required 241 00:11:03.549 --> 00:11:06.134 align:middle line:90% to reach the conclusion that will favor our side. 242 00:11:06.134 --> 00:11:09.891 align:middle line:90% We'll even, you know, sort of reverse engineer it so that our side can win. 243 00:11:10.123 --> 00:11:12.080 align:middle line:90% And that's not the way it can work 244 00:11:12.368 --> 00:11:16.762 align:middle line:90% in a democracy where compromise is the way to get things done. 245 00:11:17.018 --> 00:11:18.670 align:middle line:90% You know, sometimes you have to get half a loaf, 246 00:11:18.670 --> 00:11:20.131 align:middle line:90% but it's better than no loaf at all. 247 00:11:20.235 --> 00:11:20.735 align:middle line:90% [STELTER CHUCKLES] 248 00:11:20.735 --> 00:11:25.025 align:middle line:90% And instead, we are having impasse all the time because it seems, sometimes, 249 00:11:25.025 --> 00:11:28.304 align:middle line:90% lawmakers would rather simply demonize their opponents 250 00:11:28.304 --> 00:11:30.395 align:middle line:90% than reach some agreeable solution. 251 00:11:30.743 --> 00:11:32.488 align:middle line:90% Since you used the phrase "fake news," 252 00:11:32.664 --> 00:11:34.673 align:middle line:90% I think we should unpack what it actually means. 253 00:11:34.861 --> 00:11:37.111 align:middle line:90% You know, because disinformation, misinformation, 254 00:11:37.111 --> 00:11:41.880 align:middle line:90% these are helpful labels that are a little more precise than so-called "fake news." 255 00:11:42.410 --> 00:11:45.411 align:middle line:90% But I remember, you were there, I was there, 10 years ago, 256 00:11:45.411 --> 00:11:47.193 align:middle line:90% the term "fake news" was invented 257 00:11:47.193 --> 00:11:48.975 align:middle line:90% to actually mean something really specific. 258 00:11:49.363 --> 00:11:52.757 align:middle line:90% It was coined about a decade ago by a reporter at "BuzzFeed" 259 00:11:52.757 --> 00:11:54.719 align:middle line:90% to describe stories that were actually made up, 260 00:11:54.719 --> 00:11:55.944 align:middle line:90% designed to deceive you. 261 00:11:56.212 --> 00:11:58.819 align:middle line:90% That famous 2016 headline, for example, saying, 262 00:11:58.995 --> 00:12:01.304 align:middle line:90% "Pope Endorses Donald Trump Over Hillary Clinton." 263 00:12:01.313 --> 00:12:01.813 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 264 00:12:01.816 --> 00:12:03.515 align:middle line:90% And I remember, Barbara, going on "CNN," 265 00:12:03.515 --> 00:12:05.823 align:middle line:90% talking about this plague of fake news stories, 266 00:12:05.823 --> 00:12:07.704 align:middle line:90% using the phrase "fake news" a bunch, 267 00:12:08.008 --> 00:12:09.918 align:middle line:90% and now I feel like I was part of the problem. 268 00:12:10.290 --> 00:12:12.876 align:middle line:90% Because I was using this phrase that meant something really specific. 269 00:12:12.882 --> 00:12:13.382 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 270 00:12:13.412 --> 00:12:15.042 align:middle line:90% But people like Donald Trump were listening. 271 00:12:15.050 --> 00:12:15.550 align:middle line:90% Mm. 272 00:12:15.550 --> 00:12:17.255 align:middle line:90% And Trump re-coined the term. 273 00:12:17.255 --> 00:12:21.523 align:middle line:90% He took the term, and he redefined it to mean stories he doesn't like, 274 00:12:21.523 --> 00:12:22.435 align:middle line:90% stories he doesn't believe, 275 00:12:22.435 --> 00:12:23.808 align:middle line:90% stories he doesn't want his voters to believe. 276 00:12:23.808 --> 00:12:24.513 align:middle line:90% So, that's interesting. 277 00:12:24.513 --> 00:12:26.405 align:middle line:90% But I feel like that's what happens every time 278 00:12:26.405 --> 00:12:28.709 align:middle line:90% we identify a problem out there in the marketplace, 279 00:12:28.849 --> 00:12:31.054 align:middle line:90% identify a problem in the information landscape, 280 00:12:31.246 --> 00:12:32.171 align:middle line:90% it gets weaponized. 281 00:12:32.311 --> 00:12:32.891 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 282 00:12:33.336 --> 00:12:36.813 align:middle line:90% Well, that's all part of the disinformation game, I suppose, 283 00:12:36.813 --> 00:12:41.612 align:middle line:90% is to try to neutralize anything that would help 284 00:12:41.736 --> 00:12:44.689 align:middle line:90% to pinpoint and expose disinformation. 285 00:12:44.958 --> 00:12:46.899 align:middle line:90% And, you know, there are a number of examples of it. 286 00:12:46.899 --> 00:12:51.465 align:middle line:90% I think another example of trying to neutralize accountability 287 00:12:51.537 --> 00:12:53.198 align:middle line:90% is in the impeachment arena. 288 00:12:53.198 --> 00:12:57.055 align:middle line:90% So Donald Trump gets impeached twice, and, um, 289 00:12:57.220 --> 00:12:59.297 align:middle line:90% you know, that's a stain on a presidency. 290 00:12:59.453 --> 00:13:03.506 align:middle line:90% And so then we see efforts to impeach Joe Biden, 291 00:13:03.810 --> 00:13:09.011 align:middle line:90% efforts to impeach Department of Homeland Security Secretary Mayorkas. 292 00:13:09.220 --> 00:13:13.865 align:middle line:90% And it seems, at least to me, that it may be that some people 293 00:13:13.865 --> 00:13:17.890 align:middle line:90% are trying to cheapen impeachment and say, "Everybody gets impeached. 294 00:13:17.986 --> 00:13:18.666 align:middle line:90% It's no big deal. 295 00:13:18.666 --> 00:13:21.550 align:middle line:90% It's just a political thing that opponents do to each other, 296 00:13:21.638 --> 00:13:23.147 align:middle line:90% and it has no meaning whatsoever." 297 00:13:23.147 --> 00:13:25.870 align:middle line:90% And so they're kind of neutering the idea of impeachment, 298 00:13:25.870 --> 00:13:28.045 align:middle line:90% which is supposed to be accountability for a president 299 00:13:28.045 --> 00:13:31.618 align:middle line:90% who has committed high crimes or misdemeanors, or a cabinet official. 300 00:13:31.918 --> 00:13:35.583 align:middle line:90% And instead, you know, we're seeing everybody get impeached. 301 00:13:35.807 --> 00:13:38.335 align:middle line:90% And so then others can say, "Yeah, it's no, 302 00:13:38.335 --> 00:13:39.640 align:middle line:90% it's no big deal to be impeached." 303 00:13:40.117 --> 00:13:43.397 align:middle line:90% Well, speaking of that, let's talk now about January 6th, 304 00:13:43.709 --> 00:13:46.005 align:middle line:90% because right after the attack on the Capitol, 305 00:13:46.173 --> 00:13:49.821 align:middle line:90% it seemed as if there was a common understanding of what had happened. 306 00:13:49.821 --> 00:13:51.711 align:middle line:90% There was mostly a shared reality. 307 00:13:52.315 --> 00:13:55.728 align:middle line:90% But after a few months, disinformation wormed its way in. 308 00:13:55.728 --> 00:13:56.352 align:middle line:90% Mm-hmm. 309 00:13:56.352 --> 00:14:00.157 align:middle line:90% A new narrative started to form about the government perpetuating the plot, 310 00:14:00.157 --> 00:14:03.736 align:middle line:90% about secret agents in the crowd, saying that Trump voters were actually 311 00:14:03.736 --> 00:14:06.396 align:middle line:90% the victims of a government conspiracy to trick them. 312 00:14:06.645 --> 00:14:09.298 align:middle line:90% Where did this disinformation come from? 313 00:14:09.862 --> 00:14:13.165 align:middle line:90% And how did it end up changing so many Americans' perception 314 00:14:13.165 --> 00:14:14.452 align:middle line:90% of what happened that day? 315 00:14:15.037 --> 00:14:18.116 align:middle line:90% Well, I don't know who is the originator of this plot, 316 00:14:18.116 --> 00:14:20.744 align:middle line:90% but we certainly know some of the people who've participated in it. 317 00:14:21.013 --> 00:14:23.250 align:middle line:90% Donald Trump certainly has participated in it. 318 00:14:23.454 --> 00:14:27.728 align:middle line:90% And it's interesting to see how he has persuaded other politicians, 319 00:14:27.728 --> 00:14:32.963 align:middle line:90% other Republicans to kind of slowly evolve from on January 6th and 7th 320 00:14:33.035 --> 00:14:35.453 align:middle line:90% standing up and saying, "This is awful," 321 00:14:35.709 --> 00:14:40.844 align:middle line:90% to, you know, a few years later saying, "Well, it was ordinary tourist activity," 322 00:14:40.844 --> 00:14:43.619 align:middle line:90% or "It was ordinary political discourse." 323 00:14:43.772 --> 00:14:47.659 align:middle line:90% And there are even some, Elise Stefanik, Congresswoman from New York, 324 00:14:47.659 --> 00:14:49.740 align:middle line:90% and Marjorie Taylor Greene from Georgia, 325 00:14:49.861 --> 00:14:53.969 align:middle line:90% at least those two who are parroting Donald Trump's phrase 326 00:14:53.969 --> 00:14:57.479 align:middle line:90% and calling some of these January 6th defendants "hostages." 327 00:14:57.676 --> 00:14:59.097 align:middle line:90% I mean, hostages! 328 00:14:59.237 --> 00:15:01.701 align:middle line:90% That suggests that they have been kidnapped 329 00:15:01.701 --> 00:15:04.789 align:middle line:90% and held against their will and are innocent of anything. 330 00:15:05.122 --> 00:15:07.821 align:middle line:90% And of course, there are a number of people who've been charged with crimes, 331 00:15:08.093 --> 00:15:12.759 align:middle line:90% detained, given due process, and convicted of crimes. 332 00:15:13.131 --> 00:15:16.075 align:middle line:90% So the idea that these people are hostages, you know, 333 00:15:16.075 --> 00:15:21.467 align:middle line:90% gives life to the idea that this is all just sort of a trumped up charge, 334 00:15:21.467 --> 00:15:23.415 align:middle line:90% that there really was no crime here. 335 00:15:23.631 --> 00:15:26.116 align:middle line:90% that what they were doing was very ordinary. 336 00:15:26.252 --> 00:15:28.009 align:middle line:90% And that's just not normal. 337 00:15:28.009 --> 00:15:28.509 align:middle line:90% [STELTER CHUCKLES] 338 00:15:28.509 --> 00:15:32.663 align:middle line:90% I think there is a normalization of the use of violence 339 00:15:32.663 --> 00:15:34.215 align:middle line:90% to get someone's political way. 340 00:15:34.323 --> 00:15:34.891 align:middle line:90% Mm. 341 00:15:35.452 --> 00:15:39.973 align:middle line:90% So much of this exists on the right in an echo chamber that is ultimately harmful 342 00:15:39.973 --> 00:15:41.142 align:middle line:90% to the cause. 343 00:15:41.362 --> 00:15:42.334 align:middle line:90% But what about the left? 344 00:15:42.334 --> 00:15:47.228 align:middle line:90% What's a potent example of disinformation that comes from or impacts the left? 345 00:15:47.782 --> 00:15:51.511 align:middle line:90% Well, I don't see it to the same extent that we see on the far right. 346 00:15:51.619 --> 00:15:56.428 align:middle line:90% But there have been instances where people on the left engage in disinformation. 347 00:15:56.588 --> 00:15:58.965 align:middle line:90% There was an incident where Mehmet Oz, 348 00:15:58.965 --> 00:16:01.847 align:middle line:90% who was a candidate for Senate in Pennsylvania, 349 00:16:01.979 --> 00:16:06.539 align:middle line:90% was depicted kissing a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, 350 00:16:06.895 --> 00:16:09.530 align:middle line:90% and it went around social media suggesting that he was kissing 351 00:16:09.530 --> 00:16:12.649 align:middle line:90% the star of Donald Trump on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, 352 00:16:12.649 --> 00:16:14.682 align:middle line:90% you know, which would suggest a submissiveness, 353 00:16:14.858 --> 00:16:16.787 align:middle line:90% that he is the pawn of Donald Trump. 354 00:16:16.963 --> 00:16:19.964 align:middle line:90% In fact, it turns out it was his own star on the day of his… 355 00:16:19.964 --> 00:16:20.464 align:middle line:90% [STELTER CHUCKLES] 356 00:16:20.464 --> 00:16:22.533 align:middle line:90% …induction into the Hollywood Walk of Fame, 357 00:16:22.533 --> 00:16:23.997 align:middle line:90% which is part of the tradition 358 00:16:23.997 --> 00:16:25.989 align:middle line:90% that, you know, you get down and you kiss your star, 359 00:16:25.989 --> 00:16:26.769 align:middle line:90% and that's what he had done. 360 00:16:26.769 --> 00:16:29.338 align:middle line:90% So, he didn't do anything really unusual at all, 361 00:16:29.366 --> 00:16:31.720 align:middle line:90% other than earn a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. 362 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:34.905 align:middle line:90% But, you know, there were some, and who knows how many people it was, 363 00:16:34.905 --> 00:16:36.218 align:middle line:90% if it was just one individual, 364 00:16:36.218 --> 00:16:38.207 align:middle line:90% but somebody was willing to put that out there 365 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:41.461 align:middle line:90% and suggest that it was Trump's star that he was kissing. 366 00:16:41.719 --> 00:16:42.271 align:middle line:90% Mm. 367 00:16:42.514 --> 00:16:46.387 align:middle line:90% That's an interesting one because that is an example of kind of like dirty tricks… 368 00:16:46.387 --> 00:16:46.947 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 369 00:16:46.947 --> 00:16:48.384 align:middle line:90% …probably coming from someone on the left. 370 00:16:48.384 --> 00:16:50.234 align:middle line:90% But, you know, I'd never even heard that example. 371 00:16:50.234 --> 00:16:51.843 align:middle line:90% These are pretty narrow. 372 00:16:51.843 --> 00:16:55.376 align:middle line:90% They're pretty confined compared to what we're seeing 373 00:16:55.376 --> 00:16:58.342 align:middle line:90% from the kind of pro-Trump media on a daily basis. 374 00:16:58.366 --> 00:16:58.910 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 375 00:16:58.923 --> 00:17:01.846 align:middle line:90% And it's just not fair to pretend as if the scales are even. 376 00:17:01.846 --> 00:17:03.455 align:middle line:90% Right. And I don't want to "both sides" it. 377 00:17:03.455 --> 00:17:06.209 align:middle line:90% I mean, I think anyone is capable of disinformation, 378 00:17:06.342 --> 00:17:09.358 align:middle line:90% and we don't know the full extent of who all is using it. 379 00:17:09.358 --> 00:17:12.512 align:middle line:90% But I think it is fair to say that it is members of the far right 380 00:17:12.512 --> 00:17:13.674 align:middle line:90% who are most engaged in it. 381 00:17:13.862 --> 00:17:16.851 align:middle line:90% I think Steve Bannon is one of the masterminds of all of this. 382 00:17:17.068 --> 00:17:20.850 align:middle line:90% Steve Bannon was the one who said, "You have to flood the zone, you know, 383 00:17:20.850 --> 00:17:23.384 align:middle line:90% with garbage so that people don't know what to think." 384 00:17:23.844 --> 00:17:25.960 align:middle line:90% With this in mind, how do you grapple with 385 00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:29.484 align:middle line:90% the role of reality-based, truth-telling media outlets 386 00:17:29.848 --> 00:17:32.588 align:middle line:90% when they are having to cover what Donald Trump is saying, 387 00:17:32.780 --> 00:17:34.709 align:middle line:90% what other politicians are saying? 388 00:17:34.985 --> 00:17:36.454 align:middle line:90% Is the media part of the problem? 389 00:17:36.743 --> 00:17:37.499 align:middle line:90% I think so. 390 00:17:37.499 --> 00:17:40.410 align:middle line:90% And I think they haven't quite figured out how to handle him yet. 391 00:17:40.686 --> 00:17:42.216 align:middle line:90% You know, certainly there was "Fox News--" 392 00:17:42.216 --> 00:17:44.152 align:middle line:90% Wait. It's 2024. 393 00:17:44.152 --> 00:17:46.041 align:middle line:90% We still haven't figured out how to handle Donald Trump? 394 00:17:46.041 --> 00:17:47.293 align:middle line:90% No, I don't think so. 395 00:17:47.293 --> 00:17:51.542 align:middle line:90% Well, first, there was "Fox News" that, you know, paid a $700 million settlement 396 00:17:51.542 --> 00:17:55.531 align:middle line:90% to Dominion Voting Systems for airing lies 397 00:17:55.531 --> 00:17:59.552 align:middle line:90% about their voting machines flipping votes from Donald Trump to Joe Biden. 398 00:17:59.552 --> 00:18:01.800 align:middle line:90% So you would think they would have learned their lesson there. 399 00:18:02.053 --> 00:18:03.778 align:middle line:90% But I don't know that anybody has. 400 00:18:03.798 --> 00:18:07.330 align:middle line:90% I think we still see this kind of both sides-ing 401 00:18:07.330 --> 00:18:08.278 align:middle line:90% of a lot of issues. 402 00:18:08.278 --> 00:18:10.507 align:middle line:90% And I think it's because reporters grew up in a time 403 00:18:10.863 --> 00:18:15.655 align:middle line:90% when politicians were acting in good faith and just had differences of opinion. 404 00:18:15.832 --> 00:18:19.235 align:middle line:90% And so they were trained to cover both sides of a story. 405 00:18:19.407 --> 00:18:21.093 align:middle line:90% What's the Republican position on this issue? 406 00:18:21.093 --> 00:18:22.810 align:middle line:90% What's the Democratic position on this issue? 407 00:18:22.810 --> 00:18:24.115 align:middle line:90% What are the areas of disagreement? 408 00:18:24.448 --> 00:18:27.299 align:middle line:90% And you could do it in that way fairly and accurately. 409 00:18:27.583 --> 00:18:30.713 align:middle line:90% Now, you know, when there's a politician who's willing to just make stuff up 410 00:18:30.713 --> 00:18:32.164 align:middle line:90% and, and tell lies, 411 00:18:32.320 --> 00:18:34.346 align:middle line:90% I think it's very difficult for our reporters 412 00:18:34.346 --> 00:18:38.869 align:middle line:90% because I think their instincts tell them just to say, "This was the position," 413 00:18:38.981 --> 00:18:41.494 align:middle line:90% without also saying, "and it was a lie." 414 00:18:41.878 --> 00:18:46.011 align:middle line:90% So I think that they need to have the nerve to do that when it is clear 415 00:18:46.091 --> 00:18:50.308 align:middle line:90% or to reference in their story sites of accurate information. 416 00:18:50.308 --> 00:18:54.081 align:middle line:90% If it's about voting, sending readers to the websites 417 00:18:54.081 --> 00:18:56.425 align:middle line:90% of the secretaries of state, of their people's states 418 00:18:56.425 --> 00:18:59.026 align:middle line:90% so that they can actually check on these things. 419 00:18:59.463 --> 00:19:01.308 align:middle line:90% This is a daily struggle. 420 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:04.067 align:middle line:90% I definitely felt it when I was at "CNN." 421 00:19:04.471 --> 00:19:08.007 align:middle line:90% It's especially hard when a politician is using rhetoric 422 00:19:08.007 --> 00:19:10.472 align:middle line:90% that is not 100% false. 423 00:19:10.492 --> 00:19:12.614 align:middle line:90% It's like 99% false, right? 424 00:19:12.614 --> 00:19:13.286 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 425 00:19:13.286 --> 00:19:14.736 align:middle line:90% And this is true, especially, this is… 426 00:19:14.736 --> 00:19:16.282 align:middle line:90% You know, I hate to make it all about Trump, 427 00:19:16.282 --> 00:19:18.670 align:middle line:90% but this election season is gonna be all about Trump. 428 00:19:18.670 --> 00:19:22.154 align:middle line:90% When Trump will say something that has a tiny little kernel of truth to it… 429 00:19:22.154 --> 00:19:22.654 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 430 00:19:22.654 --> 00:19:26.264 align:middle line:90% …but then he exaggerates it beyond belief into some monster that doesn't exist. 431 00:19:26.264 --> 00:19:26.888 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 432 00:19:26.888 --> 00:19:28.281 align:middle line:90% Is that disinformation? 433 00:19:28.281 --> 00:19:30.894 align:middle line:90% Is that just lousy, you know, rhetoric? 434 00:19:30.894 --> 00:19:31.534 align:middle line:90% Is it lying? 435 00:19:31.534 --> 00:19:35.832 align:middle line:90% I mean, part of this is a labeling issue when someone is, again, 436 00:19:35.832 --> 00:19:38.081 align:middle line:90% acting beyond the norms of what the media is used to. 437 00:19:38.081 --> 00:19:39.158 align:middle line:90% Yeah, I think so. 438 00:19:39.158 --> 00:19:41.707 align:middle line:90% I mean, I consider disinformation to include efforts 439 00:19:41.707 --> 00:19:43.880 align:middle line:90% to manipulate and mislead the public. 440 00:19:44.105 --> 00:19:47.751 align:middle line:90% And so, even if a statement has a grain of truth in it, 441 00:19:47.931 --> 00:19:50.776 align:middle line:90% if it is also designed to manipulate or deceive 442 00:19:50.776 --> 00:19:53.189 align:middle line:90% or make people look like they're guilty of something… 443 00:19:53.189 --> 00:19:53.689 align:middle line:90% Mm. 444 00:19:53.689 --> 00:19:56.501 align:middle line:90% …you know, like, Donald Trump loves to talk about the Bidens 445 00:19:56.501 --> 00:19:58.641 align:middle line:90% and Hunter Biden accepting money 446 00:19:58.641 --> 00:20:02.668 align:middle line:90% from Ukrainian energy company and from China, 447 00:20:02.668 --> 00:20:06.199 align:middle line:90% and then suggesting that that means that Joe Biden is corrupt. 448 00:20:06.199 --> 00:20:08.421 align:middle line:90% So there's a patina of truth there, right? 449 00:20:08.421 --> 00:20:13.297 align:middle line:90% And so he takes that and then runs with it to suggest that his opponent is corrupt 450 00:20:13.297 --> 00:20:16.064 align:middle line:90% when, you know, there's no real basis to say that. 451 00:20:16.228 --> 00:20:18.583 align:middle line:90% I remember, let's say, five, six, seven years ago, 452 00:20:18.583 --> 00:20:20.163 align:middle line:90% there was a lot of energy at Facebook 453 00:20:20.163 --> 00:20:24.423 align:middle line:90% and at the company then called Twitter to address rampant disinformation, 454 00:20:24.663 --> 00:20:27.957 align:middle line:90% to try to curtail some of the most poisonous lies 455 00:20:27.957 --> 00:20:29.395 align:middle line:90% that were spreading on the platforms. 456 00:20:29.683 --> 00:20:31.805 align:middle line:90% But now, it feels like that energy has been zapped. 457 00:20:31.993 --> 00:20:37.385 align:middle line:90% Elon Musk himself, now the owner of X, he posts total lies on his own feed. 458 00:20:37.401 --> 00:20:37.901 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 459 00:20:37.901 --> 00:20:40.103 align:middle line:90% Facebook has backed away from the news industry 460 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:42.658 align:middle line:90% and has curtailed funding to the fact-checkers. 461 00:20:42.918 --> 00:20:44.975 align:middle line:90% So… what happened? 462 00:20:45.107 --> 00:20:47.352 align:middle line:90% Why has the oxygen been sucked out of this room? 463 00:20:48.125 --> 00:20:52.468 align:middle line:90% I think Elon Musk is one who's really changed the whole industry 464 00:20:52.801 --> 00:20:56.016 align:middle line:90% by pushing this idea that we should be able 465 00:20:56.016 --> 00:20:59.749 align:middle line:90% to say anything we want on social media because it is the town square. 466 00:20:59.962 --> 00:21:04.109 align:middle line:90% And any effort to moderate content there is censorship 467 00:21:04.233 --> 00:21:06.062 align:middle line:90% that is forbidden by the First Amendment. 468 00:21:06.234 --> 00:21:09.949 align:middle line:90% But I'll tell you why I think it's not equivalent to the town square. 469 00:21:10.193 --> 00:21:12.858 align:middle line:90% In the town square, if someone is giving a speech, you know, 470 00:21:12.858 --> 00:21:15.572 align:middle line:90% on their little soapbox, you can see who it is. 471 00:21:15.733 --> 00:21:17.656 align:middle line:90% You can see if that's someone who's credible 472 00:21:17.656 --> 00:21:18.839 align:middle line:90% and they have a credible voice. 473 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:20.354 align:middle line:90% So you can say, "Oh, that guy, he's always out here, 474 00:21:20.354 --> 00:21:21.373 align:middle line:90% and he says dumb stuff. 475 00:21:21.373 --> 00:21:21.873 align:middle line:90% [STELTER LAUGHS] 476 00:21:21.873 --> 00:21:22.722 align:middle line:90% Not that guy." 477 00:21:22.722 --> 00:21:24.884 align:middle line:90% You can see how the crowd is reacting. 478 00:21:24.884 --> 00:21:28.273 align:middle line:90% Are people, you know, cheering and clapping, or are they booing, 479 00:21:28.273 --> 00:21:29.907 align:middle line:90% or are they ignoring the person? 480 00:21:30.127 --> 00:21:33.225 align:middle line:90% Because that is important, too, to tell you how popular someone is. 481 00:21:33.518 --> 00:21:37.384 align:middle line:90% On social media, you can't see the identity of the person. 482 00:21:37.384 --> 00:21:39.102 align:middle line:90% They might have a false persona. 483 00:21:39.374 --> 00:21:43.765 align:middle line:90% They might just be Patriot Girl or Eagle Boy or something like that. 484 00:21:43.765 --> 00:21:44.998 align:middle line:90% So we don't know who they are. 485 00:21:45.234 --> 00:21:47.031 align:middle line:90% So we can't assess their credibility. 486 00:21:47.280 --> 00:21:50.379 align:middle line:90% And with regard to their popularity, 487 00:21:50.639 --> 00:21:55.257 align:middle line:90% it could be that it's just bots who are boosting their likes and shares. 488 00:21:55.422 --> 00:22:00.270 align:middle line:90% And so we don't really get to see whether their message is being well-received 489 00:22:00.270 --> 00:22:04.714 align:middle line:90% or booed or ignored because the bots are sending lots of likes and shares, 490 00:22:04.954 --> 00:22:07.929 align:middle line:90% making it look like they're more popular than they are. 491 00:22:08.017 --> 00:22:09.258 align:middle line:90% That's really interesting. 492 00:22:09.994 --> 00:22:13.112 align:middle line:90% So it's nothing like an actual, physical town square. 493 00:22:13.264 --> 00:22:13.764 align:middle line:90% No. 494 00:22:13.764 --> 00:22:14.264 align:middle line:90% [STELTER LAUGHS] 495 00:22:14.264 --> 00:22:16.051 align:middle line:90% I mean, think about remember when Elon Musk restored 496 00:22:16.051 --> 00:22:17.759 align:middle line:90% Donald Trump's Twitter account? 497 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:20.092 align:middle line:90% He said, "I'm going to put it to a vote of the people." 498 00:22:20.092 --> 00:22:21.279 align:middle line:90% And then he put it like, you know, 499 00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:22.562 align:middle line:90% "Should we restore Donald Trump's account? 500 00:22:22.562 --> 00:22:23.759 align:middle line:90% Yes? No? Vote for one." 501 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:28.151 align:middle line:90% Knowing full well that people could vote more than one time 502 00:22:28.151 --> 00:22:29.839 align:middle line:90% because they could have multiple accounts. 503 00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:31.348 align:middle line:90% They could use bots to account. 504 00:22:31.490 --> 00:22:33.727 align:middle line:90% He just let the wild vote come in. 505 00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:36.233 align:middle line:90% And then he reported that the yeses had won like… 506 00:22:36.456 --> 00:22:39.450 align:middle line:90% And then his tweet was, "The people have spoken." 507 00:22:39.450 --> 00:22:39.950 align:middle line:90% Right. 508 00:22:39.950 --> 00:22:42.678 align:middle line:90% I mean, he knows that's not, you know, it's not like a one person, 509 00:22:42.678 --> 00:22:45.186 align:middle line:90% one vote situation that we have in an election. 510 00:22:45.338 --> 00:22:50.270 align:middle line:90% But he created a false impression that this had been a democratic process 511 00:22:50.270 --> 00:22:52.661 align:middle line:90% and the people wanted Donald Trump back. 512 00:22:53.116 --> 00:22:54.719 align:middle line:90% I had a recent experience with all of this, 513 00:22:54.719 --> 00:22:56.522 align:middle line:90% and I wonder what you think I should have done. 514 00:22:57.011 --> 00:22:59.728 align:middle line:90% There were some articles written about me on far-right websites 515 00:22:59.960 --> 00:23:02.086 align:middle line:90% saying that I'm running for school board in New Jersey. 516 00:23:02.086 --> 00:23:02.586 align:middle line:90% [MCQUADE LAUGHS] 517 00:23:02.586 --> 00:23:04.191 align:middle line:90% And the truth is, I thought about it. 518 00:23:04.191 --> 00:23:05.512 align:middle line:90% I sent in a letter, but I withdrew. 519 00:23:05.512 --> 00:23:06.573 align:middle line:90% I decided not to do it. 520 00:23:06.573 --> 00:23:07.914 align:middle line:90% I didn't get interviewed or anything. 521 00:23:07.946 --> 00:23:10.476 align:middle line:90% But I didn't know what to do when these articles started popping up. 522 00:23:10.740 --> 00:23:12.377 align:middle line:90% And then it spread beyond articles. 523 00:23:12.397 --> 00:23:14.060 align:middle line:90% There's radio hosts out in other states… 524 00:23:14.077 --> 00:23:14.909 align:middle line:90% Oh, jeez. 525 00:23:14.909 --> 00:23:17.293 align:middle line:90% …talking about "Brian Stelter, the former 'CNN' guy, 526 00:23:17.293 --> 00:23:18.598 align:middle line:90% trying to run for school board." 527 00:23:18.598 --> 00:23:19.098 align:middle line:90% [MCQUADE LAUGHS] 528 00:23:19.098 --> 00:23:21.884 align:middle line:90% And I'm thinking to myself, "Am I better off ignoring it?" 529 00:23:21.884 --> 00:23:22.700 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 530 00:23:22.700 --> 00:23:26.364 align:middle line:90% Or am I better off trying to tamp it down and say, "That's not true, that's a lie"? 531 00:23:26.364 --> 00:23:28.164 align:middle line:90% I guess I don't know what you're supposed to do 532 00:23:28.164 --> 00:23:30.660 align:middle line:90% when there's a fire in your house, and you didn't start it, 533 00:23:30.660 --> 00:23:31.985 align:middle line:90% but someone's got to put it out. 534 00:23:31.985 --> 00:23:36.006 align:middle line:90% Yeah, no, it's such an interesting thing because, you know, do you dignify it 535 00:23:36.006 --> 00:23:37.379 align:middle line:90% by responding to it? 536 00:23:37.379 --> 00:23:39.758 align:middle line:90% Do you give it oxygen by responding to it? 537 00:23:39.758 --> 00:23:41.686 align:middle line:90% My inclination is often not to do that, 538 00:23:41.686 --> 00:23:46.298 align:middle line:90% but I think sometimes when something is starting to get a lot of attention, 539 00:23:46.298 --> 00:23:49.369 align:middle line:90% the best way to do it is to make a quick denial 540 00:23:49.541 --> 00:23:52.526 align:middle line:90% and provide accurate facts, because otherwise, 541 00:23:52.526 --> 00:23:55.019 align:middle line:90% people are going to fill the vacuum with their false information. 542 00:23:55.111 --> 00:23:58.115 align:middle line:90% Yeah, we're in an environment now where even if I spoke up as loudly as I could 543 00:23:58.115 --> 00:24:00.048 align:middle line:90% and said, "That's not true, and that's not true," 544 00:24:00.360 --> 00:24:03.333 align:middle line:90% because it's not a real physical town square, 545 00:24:03.701 --> 00:24:05.322 align:middle line:90% you know, people don't know what to believe. 546 00:24:05.468 --> 00:24:05.968 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 547 00:24:05.968 --> 00:24:08.617 align:middle line:90% And that gets to your point about countries like Russia, 548 00:24:08.617 --> 00:24:10.818 align:middle line:90% where the environment is so destabilized, 549 00:24:10.992 --> 00:24:13.469 align:middle line:90% people don't know what to believe, so they believe nothing. 550 00:24:13.887 --> 00:24:14.583 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 551 00:24:14.583 --> 00:24:18.161 align:middle line:90% And I fear we're getting really close to that in the United States. 552 00:24:18.161 --> 00:24:20.033 align:middle line:90% Yes. Yes. 553 00:24:20.033 --> 00:24:22.034 align:middle line:90% This idea of the "fog of unknowability." 554 00:24:22.034 --> 00:24:24.088 align:middle line:90% Nobody knows what to believe, 555 00:24:24.088 --> 00:24:26.459 align:middle line:90% and so people disengage from public life altogether, 556 00:24:26.459 --> 00:24:29.628 align:middle line:90% which is a really bad place for people to be in a democracy. 557 00:24:29.628 --> 00:24:32.118 align:middle line:90% Because that's what the bad faith actors want to have happen. 558 00:24:32.118 --> 00:24:32.822 align:middle line:90% Mm-hmm. Yup. 559 00:24:32.822 --> 00:24:35.796 align:middle line:90% So is there anything that listeners of this episode can do 560 00:24:35.796 --> 00:24:38.413 align:middle line:90% about this environment, about this information pollution? 561 00:24:38.413 --> 00:24:42.439 align:middle line:90% One is that we need to build up our media literacy in this country, 562 00:24:42.439 --> 00:24:43.800 align:middle line:90% and it's something all of us can do. 563 00:24:43.800 --> 00:24:46.873 align:middle line:90% There are a lot of great resources out there to build media literacy. 564 00:24:46.873 --> 00:24:47.409 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 565 00:24:47.409 --> 00:24:49.680 align:middle line:90% I'll tell you some is when you read a story, 566 00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:51.919 align:middle line:90% don't look at just the headline, actually read the story 567 00:24:51.919 --> 00:24:56.364 align:middle line:90% because headlines sometimes do not match the content of the story very much at all. 568 00:24:56.364 --> 00:25:00.673 align:middle line:90% Sometimes the headline is designed to be clickbait just to attract readers there 569 00:25:00.673 --> 00:25:02.641 align:middle line:90% without accurately reflecting the story. 570 00:25:02.773 --> 00:25:04.390 align:middle line:90% Look for second sources. 571 00:25:04.602 --> 00:25:08.907 align:middle line:90% It can be very easy to be led astray when you read something 572 00:25:09.115 --> 00:25:10.572 align:middle line:90% and believe it to be true. 573 00:25:10.572 --> 00:25:13.949 align:middle line:90% So really important that you look for second sources of things. 574 00:25:14.241 --> 00:25:18.514 align:middle line:90% When there is an article that talks about statistical studies or surveys, 575 00:25:18.786 --> 00:25:20.254 align:middle line:90% look at the sample size. 576 00:25:20.427 --> 00:25:23.113 align:middle line:90% Is it three million people or is it three? 577 00:25:23.113 --> 00:25:23.613 align:middle line:90% [STELTER LAUGHS] 578 00:25:23.626 --> 00:25:25.696 align:middle line:90% Because that can make a real difference. 579 00:25:25.824 --> 00:25:28.546 align:middle line:90% So, those are some of the ways we can protect ourselves. 580 00:25:28.718 --> 00:25:32.878 align:middle line:90% I think we also owe it to our children to ensure that 581 00:25:32.978 --> 00:25:35.637 align:middle line:90% civic education is what it should be. 582 00:25:36.013 --> 00:25:38.544 align:middle line:90% Civics education, I think, is so critically important 583 00:25:38.544 --> 00:25:43.656 align:middle line:90% because it helps people to understand how things can go wrong in a government 584 00:25:43.776 --> 00:25:45.524 align:middle line:90% and also how things can go right. 585 00:25:45.696 --> 00:25:49.476 align:middle line:90% The idea of checks and balances and three separate branches of government, 586 00:25:49.476 --> 00:25:52.485 align:middle line:90% all of that stuff is really important to understanding how our government works. 587 00:25:52.782 --> 00:25:58.661 align:middle line:90% And I think it would avoid some of the false accusations of government misconduct 588 00:25:58.661 --> 00:26:01.652 align:middle line:90% that we see from time to time with disinformation. 589 00:26:01.819 --> 00:26:03.620 align:middle line:90% One day, my six-year-old came home from school 590 00:26:03.620 --> 00:26:06.214 align:middle line:90% and told me about the difference between fact and fiction. 591 00:26:06.241 --> 00:26:06.817 align:middle line:90% Oh, love it. 592 00:26:06.817 --> 00:26:08.914 align:middle line:90% And it was very easy for her to know the difference. 593 00:26:08.914 --> 00:26:10.335 align:middle line:90% And then I made it a little more complicated. 594 00:26:10.335 --> 00:26:13.201 align:middle line:90% I said, "Okay, there's facts, there's fictions, and then there's lies." 595 00:26:13.201 --> 00:26:13.701 align:middle line:90% Ooh! 596 00:26:13.701 --> 00:26:15.014 align:middle line:90% "People trying to trick you." 597 00:26:15.014 --> 00:26:16.671 align:middle line:90% And she had no problem with that either. 598 00:26:16.692 --> 00:26:19.070 align:middle line:90% And I found myself thinking, "If she can figure this out…" 599 00:26:19.253 --> 00:26:19.753 align:middle line:90% [MCQUADE LAUGHS] 600 00:26:19.753 --> 00:26:20.877 align:middle line:90% "…there's hope for the rest of us." 601 00:26:20.877 --> 00:26:23.162 align:middle line:90% Like, this is not actually that hard. 602 00:26:23.162 --> 00:26:23.794 align:middle line:90% There you go. 603 00:26:23.794 --> 00:26:24.986 align:middle line:90% No, it's really not. 604 00:26:24.986 --> 00:26:26.985 align:middle line:90% And, you know, I was talking with somebody 605 00:26:26.985 --> 00:26:30.512 align:middle line:90% who is a far-right MAGA supporter recently, 606 00:26:30.512 --> 00:26:33.501 align:middle line:90% who kept trying to say, "So, who decides what's true and false? 607 00:26:33.501 --> 00:26:34.981 align:middle line:90% Is there a disinformation police? 608 00:26:34.981 --> 00:26:36.118 align:middle line:90% Is that how it all works?" 609 00:26:36.118 --> 00:26:38.188 align:middle line:90% And, you know, if you take it to that degree 610 00:26:38.188 --> 00:26:40.419 align:middle line:90% and you don't want to believe that anything is true, 611 00:26:40.419 --> 00:26:42.561 align:middle line:90% I suppose you can make it sound absurd like that, 612 00:26:42.561 --> 00:26:44.832 align:middle line:90% but certainly there are knowable facts. 613 00:26:44.832 --> 00:26:46.773 align:middle line:90% I am wearing a green jacket today. 614 00:26:46.773 --> 00:26:47.273 align:middle line:90% [STELTER CHUCKLES] 615 00:26:47.273 --> 00:26:48.477 align:middle line:90% That is a fact. 616 00:26:48.477 --> 00:26:51.386 align:middle line:90% The floor in the room where I'm sitting is brown. 617 00:26:51.386 --> 00:26:52.666 align:middle line:90% That is a fact. 618 00:26:52.666 --> 00:26:55.263 align:middle line:90% And if someone were to say to me, "Oh, but is it?" 619 00:26:55.504 --> 00:26:58.662 align:middle line:90% Um, you know, maybe people might give a different name for it, 620 00:26:58.770 --> 00:27:00.073 align:middle line:90% but I can see what it is. 621 00:27:00.073 --> 00:27:05.373 align:middle line:90% And I think that those who refuse to admit that there are certain verifiable facts 622 00:27:05.602 --> 00:27:07.927 align:middle line:90% want to keep it deliberately vague out there 623 00:27:08.043 --> 00:27:12.359 align:middle line:90% because they want to be able to run from facts that they find inconvenient. 624 00:27:12.415 --> 00:27:13.844 align:middle line:90% And I think they're a minority. 625 00:27:13.844 --> 00:27:14.344 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 626 00:27:14.344 --> 00:27:17.830 align:middle line:90% I truly believe, deep down inside, most people want to know what is true. 627 00:27:17.830 --> 00:27:18.330 align:middle line:90% I agree. 628 00:27:18.330 --> 00:27:20.087 align:middle line:90% Most people don't want to be fooled. 629 00:27:20.087 --> 00:27:21.136 align:middle line:90% They don't want to be duped. 630 00:27:21.136 --> 00:27:22.761 align:middle line:90% They don't want to spread disinformation. 631 00:27:22.780 --> 00:27:24.345 align:middle line:90% They don't want to be part of this problem. 632 00:27:24.661 --> 00:27:26.074 align:middle line:90% They want to know what's real in the world! 633 00:27:26.074 --> 00:27:26.574 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 634 00:27:26.574 --> 00:27:27.755 align:middle line:90% And it can be really confusing. 635 00:27:27.755 --> 00:27:29.797 align:middle line:90% And there's not enough local news sources to trust. 636 00:27:29.797 --> 00:27:30.957 align:middle line:90% And there's all these issues. 637 00:27:31.131 --> 00:27:32.952 align:middle line:90% But most people want to know what's real. 638 00:27:32.952 --> 00:27:35.198 align:middle line:90% So, we talked about what individuals can do. 639 00:27:35.442 --> 00:27:36.643 align:middle line:90% What can institutions do? 640 00:27:36.643 --> 00:27:38.653 align:middle line:90% What are the bigger picture solutions here? 641 00:27:38.901 --> 00:27:41.447 align:middle line:90% Well, it's one of the reasons, Brian, I really love talking to students, 642 00:27:41.447 --> 00:27:43.785 align:middle line:90% because I think adults think in the short term, like, 643 00:27:43.785 --> 00:27:46.266 align:middle line:90% "We got to fix this now! I don't have much time left." [LAUGHS] 644 00:27:46.527 --> 00:27:49.444 align:middle line:90% But young people, I think, are willing to take a longer view 645 00:27:49.676 --> 00:27:51.466 align:middle line:90% of how do we fix this over time. 646 00:27:51.466 --> 00:27:51.966 align:middle line:90% Mm. 647 00:27:51.966 --> 00:27:53.527 align:middle line:90% And I think there are some things we ought to be doing. 648 00:27:53.527 --> 00:27:56.883 align:middle line:90% I mean, one is responding to the Supreme Court case 649 00:27:56.883 --> 00:27:58.127 align:middle line:90% called Citizens United, 650 00:27:58.127 --> 00:28:00.091 align:middle line:90% which has been on the books now for over 10 years. 651 00:28:00.265 --> 00:28:03.596 align:middle line:90% And this was the case in which the Supreme Court said that 652 00:28:03.664 --> 00:28:07.337 align:middle line:90% corporations are people when it comes to political speech, 653 00:28:07.481 --> 00:28:08.696 align:middle line:90% and money is speech, 654 00:28:08.696 --> 00:28:11.321 align:middle line:90% and so corporations cannot be limited 655 00:28:11.321 --> 00:28:15.684 align:middle line:90% in the amount of money that they give to support candidates for office, 656 00:28:15.696 --> 00:28:19.010 align:middle line:90% as long as they don't coordinate that spending with the candidate themselves. 657 00:28:19.430 --> 00:28:22.998 align:middle line:90% And that has really introduced a huge amount 658 00:28:23.030 --> 00:28:26.043 align:middle line:90% of dark money into the political system. 659 00:28:26.043 --> 00:28:26.571 align:middle line:90% Mm. 660 00:28:26.583 --> 00:28:28.135 align:middle line:90% And so there's all this dark money. 661 00:28:28.135 --> 00:28:31.180 align:middle line:90% People don't know where it comes from, what its source is. 662 00:28:31.444 --> 00:28:35.024 align:middle line:90% And although we probably can't change the ruling of Citizens United 663 00:28:35.300 --> 00:28:37.345 align:middle line:90% saying that there is this unlimited spending, 664 00:28:37.345 --> 00:28:39.354 align:middle line:90% I think we could require disclosure 665 00:28:39.570 --> 00:28:42.722 align:middle line:90% to find out who is spending money on these big ads. 666 00:28:42.866 --> 00:28:44.750 align:middle line:90% Is it the NRA? 667 00:28:44.902 --> 00:28:46.919 align:middle line:90% Is it Mothers Against Drunk Driving? 668 00:28:46.919 --> 00:28:48.151 align:middle line:90% Is it Vladimir Putin? 669 00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:50.079 align:middle line:90% You know, I think we're entitled to know that. 670 00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:52.957 align:middle line:90% And so I think putting some laws in the books that would require that 671 00:28:52.957 --> 00:28:54.080 align:middle line:90% would be very useful. 672 00:28:54.081 --> 00:28:54.581 align:middle line:90% Hmm. 673 00:28:54.581 --> 00:28:58.648 align:middle line:90% Um, I think regulations that regulate social media, 674 00:28:58.648 --> 00:29:02.285 align:middle line:90% but not the content so much as the algorithms. 675 00:29:02.425 --> 00:29:04.866 align:middle line:90% Frances Haugen is a whistleblower. 676 00:29:04.866 --> 00:29:07.833 align:middle line:90% She used to be a data scientist at Facebook, 677 00:29:08.089 --> 00:29:14.251 align:middle line:90% and she testified before Congress that the real key at Facebook 678 00:29:14.251 --> 00:29:17.465 align:middle line:90% was not the content, but the algorithms, because what they were doing 679 00:29:17.617 --> 00:29:22.777 align:middle line:90% is pushing content that would generate outrage through these algorithms. 680 00:29:22.777 --> 00:29:27.400 align:middle line:90% You know, these are proprietary software designed with code 681 00:29:27.632 --> 00:29:33.164 align:middle line:90% to cause certain messages to appear in various priority in your feed. 682 00:29:33.188 --> 00:29:33.836 align:middle line:90% Mm-hmm. 683 00:29:33.836 --> 00:29:38.003 align:middle line:90% And so if we're being manipulated, perhaps we can prevent that 684 00:29:38.003 --> 00:29:41.025 align:middle line:90% through regulation or at least require disclosure of that, 685 00:29:41.025 --> 00:29:43.183 align:middle line:90% so people know that they're being manipulated. 686 00:29:43.183 --> 00:29:43.863 align:middle line:90% Mm. 687 00:29:44.460 --> 00:29:48.084 align:middle line:90% This conversation can be dispiriting, but can also be optimistic. 688 00:29:48.332 --> 00:29:51.210 align:middle line:90% How do we try to reach people who are turned off 689 00:29:51.210 --> 00:29:53.041 align:middle line:90% by even the term "disinformation," 690 00:29:53.041 --> 00:29:56.654 align:middle line:90% who believe that, you know, the disinformation conversation 691 00:29:56.654 --> 00:29:58.683 align:middle line:90% is all part of a plot to censor them? 692 00:29:58.992 --> 00:29:59.588 align:middle line:90% Yeah. 693 00:29:59.957 --> 00:30:03.144 align:middle line:90% I think that whenever we want to talk to people across difference, 694 00:30:03.432 --> 00:30:06.349 align:middle line:90% we have to start from a place of empathy and curiosity. 695 00:30:06.352 --> 00:30:06.936 align:middle line:90% Mm. 696 00:30:06.936 --> 00:30:08.823 align:middle line:90% So if all we do is judge them and tell them, 697 00:30:08.823 --> 00:30:12.039 align:middle line:90% "You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, you know, you fool," 698 00:30:12.039 --> 00:30:14.397 align:middle line:90% they're going to close their ears, and they're not going to listen. 699 00:30:14.451 --> 00:30:15.924 align:middle line:90% We're wired to win arguments. 700 00:30:15.924 --> 00:30:17.761 align:middle line:90% And if they hear that, they're going to disengage. 701 00:30:18.014 --> 00:30:20.622 align:middle line:90% Instead, I think we have to show our friends and neighbors 702 00:30:20.622 --> 00:30:21.861 align:middle line:90% and loved ones respect. 703 00:30:22.173 --> 00:30:24.762 align:middle line:90% We have to try to understand where it is they're coming from. 704 00:30:24.762 --> 00:30:28.005 align:middle line:90% What is it that appeals to them about this message? 705 00:30:28.313 --> 00:30:29.379 align:middle line:90% And then when they say, you know, 706 00:30:29.379 --> 00:30:31.837 align:middle line:90% "I know for a fact that something is wrong," 707 00:30:31.837 --> 00:30:33.730 align:middle line:90% you know, "Donald Trump won the election," 708 00:30:33.906 --> 00:30:36.460 align:middle line:90% you know, to ask, "What evidence do you have of that? 709 00:30:36.460 --> 00:30:37.305 align:middle line:90% I'm curious. 710 00:30:37.305 --> 00:30:39.563 align:middle line:90% Help me understand your viewpoint. 711 00:30:39.563 --> 00:30:40.640 align:middle line:90% I'd like to get there. 712 00:30:40.836 --> 00:30:44.072 align:middle line:90% So, what is the evidence you used to reach the conclusions 713 00:30:44.072 --> 00:30:47.306 align:middle line:90% that the facts that you believe actually occurred?" 714 00:30:47.322 --> 00:30:47.822 align:middle line:90% Mm. 715 00:30:47.822 --> 00:30:48.322 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES IN] 716 00:30:48.322 --> 00:30:51.910 align:middle line:90% And so I think that can help dispel some of the facts. 717 00:30:51.910 --> 00:30:54.658 align:middle line:90% Now, you may never change your mind and the other person may not either, 718 00:30:54.658 --> 00:30:56.526 align:middle line:90% but at least when we're talking to each other, 719 00:30:56.526 --> 00:30:58.748 align:middle line:90% there is some possibility of compromise. 720 00:30:58.836 --> 00:31:00.538 align:middle line:90% And that's what politics is all about. 721 00:31:01.455 --> 00:31:03.140 align:middle line:90% Barbara, thank you so much for this conversation. 722 00:31:03.376 --> 00:31:04.045 align:middle line:90% Thank you. 723 00:31:07.155 --> 00:31:09.857 align:middle line:90% You can find Barbara McQuade's "Attack from Within: 724 00:31:10.001 --> 00:31:13.814 align:middle line:90% How Disinformation Is Sabotaging America" on Apple Books. 725 00:31:14.024 --> 00:31:16.593 align:middle line:90% You can find a link to it on our show notes page. 726 00:31:16.593 --> 00:31:17.093 align:middle line:90% [MUSIC FADES OUT]